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--- Levi, I know that long posts do not get read very well, but your brief statements really need to be fleshed out so that people can grasp some of your concepts. You seem to me to be suggesting that there is some relationship between Israel and the Church, but that the Church has not replaced Israel. Do I have that right? I would suggest that you define your terms. What you mean by the term "Israel," and also define the term "Church." You might want to articulate in more specific terms what you think the relationship is between the Gentiles and Israel, and how they come to the same blessings. If I am reading you right, you seem to be saying that God took some or all of the blessings promised to Israel and gave them to Gentiles in the Church.
I do not believe that the 'Church IS Israel'.
I have stated and always have that the Church is a 'PART of Israel' and that we as Christians are 'spiritual Israelites'
Israel are Gods chosen people and Christ is the fulfillment of Gods promise to Abraham.
I believe in the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.
ok, eventide why is that you like it when i said we our faith is a jewish one? or the God we serve is a jew?
so how in the universe does a single race own God. its actually the other way around but i say the later. He claims isreal. not the other way round.
Not sure what you're talking about.. I simply disagreed that we are 'spiritual Israelites'.. is there a problem with that ?
We're IN CHRIST.. not in Israel. Israel has been cut off for rejecting the Messiah and it will remain this way until they receive Christ as their Messiah.
Who believes that a single race owns God ? The NATION OF ISRAEL will be RESTORED in the end.. not destroyed as so many preach today.. ie, preterism.
Hi Mondar.
To state my position in a nutshell, there is most definately a relationship between the Church and Israel.
You are reading my position a little off. I don't believe that God took some or all of the blessings from Israel and gave then to the gentiles I believe this:
Jesus is the revelation of the promise given to Abraham and the Church is part of the blessing that God promised to Abraham.
God promised that He would make Abraham's descendants as many as the stars in the sky.
God hasn't taken it from Israel, she is only partially blinded as the gentiles come into her, Israel will be completed in this age with the sealing of the 144,000, the 12,000 from every tribe.
Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, If we are His body what does that make us?
We are a preisthood of Israel, we will worship our God on His Holy mountain,
Jerusalem!
Maranatha.
yes, but as a jew that if fullfilled this mean i was blind and of the seed of abraham and having been "opened to see" i am a completed jew in that. i operate in faith as the prophets etc did. that is what a jew to God is. abraham wasnt born right with God. he believed God and sin was not imputed on him. God choose him by that thing you hate (election!) and decided(or i say set up) that he would his seed to bless the entire word. God choose the hebrews because of the father abrahams faith.
who is he that is a jew? a jew that is inwardly for verily circumsion profits nothing! paul a benjaminite said that. he was adressing the jew that thought they were special because of birth and didnt need faith to be right with god.
jesus said the same thing" i am able of these rocks to raise children of abraham" meaning (aside that was taken as an insult to the jews) he could by his rights as creator choose any person and declare the them to be his people.
it said in hoshea it shall be said in the place ye are my people..
that is to the gentiles. you become his people his pecular nation.try to see that
sigh, you dont understand that.
That's fine.. I simply disagree.. Israel has been cut off and they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
I do hope you will meditate deeply in the fact that Israel is 'blinded in part' I hope that the Lord will give you deep and full understanding of what this means.
Not because I believe you salvation hinges on this (although it is the reason for our acceptance)
But because there is a richness in this truth that has a burning ferocity of Holiness that can not be denied once you come to understand the ramifications of where it is we are going and what it is we are a part of.
I will leave you with some last scripture that I believe is key to this :
מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק Melchizedek
Hebrews 5:8-10
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Melchizedek the Kingly priest:
Gen 14
8 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.â€
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
1 Peter2:9
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
My Brother this is a ferocious truth about the lion of Judah.
If you can gain understanding here you will come into a fierce understanding of your faith!
Levi,
ABRAHAM---ISRAEL
I must admit to being confused as to your concept of "Israel." Abraham truly had many sons (as you say). Among them are Ishmael and the sons of Keturah. Also among them would be the gentiles who have Abraham as the father of faith (Galatians). My question, is why do you call the sons of Abraham, Israel? We are sons of Abraham, yes, but are all sons of Abraham ... Israel? Where in the scriptures would you see that?
Its one and the same thing! Ask yourself these questions: Are you born again by the Spirit of God as poured out so that the promise may be fulfilled?ABRAHAM---GENTILES
I would agree that the Gentiles come under the certain blessings of Abraham. I am not seeing the NT writings as connecting Gentiles to the promises of Abraham to have many seed, but the NT connects the Gentiles to the promise to Abraham to be a blessing. Galatians 3:8 directly quotes Genesis 12. So then, we are sons of Abraham by Abraham being a blessing to the nations.
Yes but these blessing have come from the line of Abraham through Jacob, Israel.BLESSINGS TO ISRAEL
Concerning your statement that God did not take the blessings of Israel and give them to the Church.....
The new covenant is mentioned as promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Of course Hebrews 8 quotes the promised. 1 Cor 4 alludes to the Church as ministers of the New Covenant. We celebrate communion and the pastor or elder holds up the cup and says "this is the New Covenant." Ephesians 2 speaks of the "middle wall of partition" being broken down in the death of Christ. It would seem to me that God did do something in which he gave to Gentiles the same blessings he promised Israel. I do not mean that he gave Israel's blessings to the Gentiles and now Israel has lost those blessings, but simply that God included Gentiles in those blessings. If you look at the New Covenant in the OT, it never promises that only Israel can receive the blessings promised. God can give blessings to all whom he chooses. His grace can super abound even beyond what he promised and he does not break his word.
I'm not looking at terms, I am following the entire ream of scripture and worshiping our God in the way that I feel the Spirit is telling me.I think we agree that there are connections between Gentile saints and the OT promises. Neither one of us see the Gentiles as "replacing Israel." But I think we are looking at certain terms in slightly different ways.
I don't think that it's a big deal if Christians believe that they are 'spiritual Israelites', although I do think it's a big deal if they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel and then become wise in their own conceits. This is the Apostle's warning to the Gentile church in Rome.. and yet there we have perhaps the center of Replacement Theology and Amillennial Theology.
Do you understand the mystery pertaining to Israel?
Do you understand the mystery pertaining to Israel?
The Bible says that God promised to make him a nation with descendants as numerous as the stars. I didn't say that
Gen 32:28
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Israel is of the Line of Abraham through Jacob. The entire nation of Israel came via this son. I thought you would know this?
The entire nation up to Jesus who came from the line of the kings of Judah, His genealogy is in Mat and Luke.
God's promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Jesus!
Its one and the same thing! Ask yourself these questions: Are you born again by the Spirit of God as poured out so that the promise may be fulfilled?
and are you in the Body of Christ? the lion of Judah.
Are you part of the royal priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?
Yes but these blessing have come from the line of Abraham through Jacob, Israel.
We are part of that!
They have been poured out on all men and the disciples being filled with the Holy Spirit, rejoicing and understanding that this was the fulfullment of God's promise to Abraham 'marvelled' that it was being poured out even on the gentiles!
Trust me brother the sooner you accept it the sooner you will understand the ferocity and Holiness of this fact, where it is we are going and what it is we are involved in!
I'm not looking at terms, I am following the entire ream of scripture and worshiping our God in the way that I feel the Spirit is telling me.
We are priests in the nation of Israel, grafted in albeit but a peculiar priesthood not known under the law.
Levi paid his tithe to Melchizedek via Abraham before he was even born!
Levi, you did not take the time to read my post. I already mentioned that Gentiles are part of the seed of Abraham by faith, I already stated that there is a relationship of the Gentiles to Israel. The fact that you overlook the things I said and show no evidence that you are trying to understand what I said makes me feel like you are interested only in trying to win an argument by talking smack. If you prefer a one sided conversation in which you give me a lecture and I just listen, thats fine. I can withdraw. See ya later.
what is a jew to you eventide? that is where you are most confused.
does remain a jew in christ?
jew: a descendant of abraham from the tribe of judah or benjamin
a follower of judaism.
which dies at the cross to you? and ponder this many a gentiles have converted to judaism since the very start of isreal. so many of those that are in "isreal" may not be jews by nationality but by faith. ie the khazar had some conversion to that and all modern jews come from that area.