Why many stumble.. Amillennialism and Replacement Theology

[jasoncran]

ok, eventide why is that you like it when i said we our faith is a jewish one? or the God we serve is a jew?

so how in the universe does a single race own God. its actually the other way around but i say the later. He claims isreal. not the other way round.

 

[Levi]

--- Levi, I know that long posts do not get read very well, but your brief statements really need to be fleshed out so that people can grasp some of your concepts. You seem to me to be suggesting that there is some relationship between Israel and the Church, but that the Church has not replaced Israel. Do I have that right? I would suggest that you define your terms. What you mean by the term "Israel," and also define the term "Church." You might want to articulate in more specific terms what you think the relationship is between the Gentiles and Israel, and how they come to the same blessings. If I am reading you right, you seem to be saying that God took some or all of the blessings promised to Israel and gave them to Gentiles in the Church.

Hi Mondar.

To state my position in a nutshell, there is most definately a relationship between the Church and Israel.

You are reading my position a little off. I don't believe that God took some or all of the blessings from Israel and gave then to the gentiles I believe this:

Jesus is the revelation of the promise given to Abraham and the Church is part of the blessing that God promised to Abraham.

God promised that He would make Abraham's descendants as many as the stars in the sky.

God hasn't taken it from Israel, she is only partially blinded as the gentiles come into her, Israel will be completed in this age with the sealing of the 144,000, the 12,000 from every tribe.

Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, If we are His body what does that make us?

We are a preisthood of Israel, we will worship our God on His Holy mountain,

Jerusalem!

Maranatha.

 

[Eventide]

I do not believe that the 'Church IS Israel'.

I have stated and always have that the Church is a 'PART of Israel' and that we as Christians are 'spiritual Israelites'

That's fine.. I simply disagree.. Israel has been cut off and they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel are Gods chosen people and Christ is the fulfillment of Gods promise to Abraham.

That's why the mystery says that as pertaining to the fathers that they are beloved.. there are many OT patriarchs justified by their faith.. Heb 11 lists many of them.

I believe in the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

Me too.. and I also believe that Israel will once again be the head of the nations and that Christ will reign from Jerusalem, the city of the great King.

 

[jasoncran]

eventide what is fulfilled jew mean to you? as that is what isreal will become, fulfilled in christ. i hope you understand that and why i at times say that.

being grafted in means you are the same as one such as myself.

 

[Eventide]

ok, eventide why is that you like it when i said we our faith is a jewish one? or the God we serve is a jew?

Not sure what you're talking about.. I simply disagreed that we are 'spiritual Israelites'.. is there a problem with that ?
We're IN CHRIST.. not in Israel. Israel has been cut off for rejecting the Messiah and it will remain this way until they receive Christ as their Messiah.

so how in the universe does a single race own God. its actually the other way around but i say the later. He claims isreal. not the other way round.

Who believes that a single race owns God ? The NATION OF ISRAEL will be RESTORED in the end.. not destroyed as so many preach today.. ie, preterism.

 

[jasoncran]

Not sure what you're talking about.. I simply disagreed that we are 'spiritual Israelites'.. is there a problem with that ?
We're IN CHRIST.. not in Israel. Israel has been cut off for rejecting the Messiah and it will remain this way until they receive Christ as their Messiah.



Who believes that a single race owns God ? The NATION OF ISRAEL will be RESTORED in the end.. not destroyed as so many preach today.. ie, preterism.

yes, but as a jew that if fullfilled this mean i was blind and of the seed of abraham and having been "opened to see" i am a completed jew in that. i operate in faith as the prophets etc did. that is what a jew to God is. abraham wasnt born right with God. he believed God and sin was not imputed on him. God choose him by that thing you hate (election!) and decided(or i say set up) that he would his seed to bless the entire word. God choose the hebrews because of the father abrahams faith.

who is he that is a jew? a jew that is inwardly for verily circumsion profits nothing! paul a benjaminite said that. he was adressing the jew that thought they were special because of birth and didnt need faith to be right with god.

jesus said the same thing" i am able of these rocks to raise children of abraham" meaning (aside that was taken as an insult to the jews) he could by his rights as creator choose any person and declare the them to be his people.

it said in hoshea it shall be said in the place ye are my people..

that is to the gentiles. you become his people his pecular nation.try to see that

 

[mondar]

Hi Mondar.

To state my position in a nutshell, there is most definately a relationship between the Church and Israel.

You are reading my position a little off. I don't believe that God took some or all of the blessings from Israel and gave then to the gentiles I believe this:

Jesus is the revelation of the promise given to Abraham and the Church is part of the blessing that God promised to Abraham.

God promised that He would make Abraham's descendants as many as the stars in the sky.

God hasn't taken it from Israel, she is only partially blinded as the gentiles come into her, Israel will be completed in this age with the sealing of the 144,000, the 12,000 from every tribe.

Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, If we are His body what does that make us?

We are a preisthood of Israel, we will worship our God on His Holy mountain,

Jerusalem!

Maranatha.

Levi,
ABRAHAM---ISRAEL
I must admit to being confused as to your concept of "Israel." Abraham truly had many sons (as you say). Among them are Ishmael and the sons of Keturah. Also among them would be the gentiles who have Abraham as the father of faith (Galatians). My question, is why do you call the sons of Abraham, Israel? We are sons of Abraham, yes, but are all sons of Abraham ... Israel? Where in the scriptures would you see that?

ABRAHAM---GENTILES
I would agree that the Gentiles come under the certain blessings of Abraham. I am not seeing the NT writings as connecting Gentiles to the promises of Abraham to have many seed, but the NT connects the Gentiles to the promise to Abraham to be a blessing. Galatians 3:8 directly quotes Genesis 12. So then, we are sons of Abraham by Abraham being a blessing to the nations.

BLESSINGS TO ISRAEL
Concerning your statement that God did not take the blessings of Israel and give them to the Church.....
The new covenant is mentioned as promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Of course Hebrews 8 quotes the promised. 1 Cor 4 alludes to the Church as ministers of the New Covenant. We celebrate communion and the pastor or elder holds up the cup and says "this is the New Covenant." Ephesians 2 speaks of the "middle wall of partition" being broken down in the death of Christ. It would seem to me that God did do something in which he gave to Gentiles the same blessings he promised Israel. I do not mean that he gave Israel's blessings to the Gentiles and now Israel has lost those blessings, but simply that God included Gentiles in those blessings. If you look at the New Covenant in the OT, it never promises that only Israel can receive the blessings promised. God can give blessings to all whom he chooses. His grace can super abound even beyond what he promised and he does not break his word.

I think we agree that there are connections between Gentile saints and the OT promises. Neither one of us see the Gentiles as "replacing Israel." But I think we are looking at certain terms in slightly different ways.

 

[Eventide]

yes, but as a jew that if fullfilled this mean i was blind and of the seed of abraham and having been "opened to see" i am a completed jew in that. i operate in faith as the prophets etc did. that is what a jew to God is. abraham wasnt born right with God. he believed God and sin was not imputed on him. God choose him by that thing you hate (election!) and decided(or i say set up) that he would his seed to bless the entire word. God choose the hebrews because of the father abrahams faith.

Jason, I don't hate election.. it's perfectly biblical.. and if you don't understand my position on this then I'm sorry. I think that I have made it perfectly clear and even had threads shut down for what I believe concerning election.. threads like JESUS CHRIST IS THE ELECT... shut down because people don't want to hear it.. they want to hear that they are the elect..

who is he that is a jew? a jew that is inwardly for verily circumsion profits nothing! paul a benjaminite said that. he was adressing the jew that thought they were special because of birth and didnt need faith to be right with god.

If you think that I believe that Jews are special and don't need faith then you don't understand at all what I believe. Why is it so difficult to see that ISRAEL has been cut off for rejecting the Messiah and that they will be saved in the end times..?

jesus said the same thing" i am able of these rocks to raise children of abraham" meaning (aside that was taken as an insult to the jews) he could by his rights as creator choose any person and declare the them to be his people.

it said in hoshea it shall be said in the place ye are my people..

that is to the gentiles. you become his people his pecular nation.try to see that

No doubt that the church of God is IN CHRIST and His people.. although imo that doesn't make us 'spiritual Israelites'.. it makes us CHRISTians.. IN CHRIST.

 

[jasoncran]

sigh, you dont understand that.

so by your logic then any saved jew such as myself are christians but what?

a messaniac jew? they teach the law and follow the feasts. so is that where i should go? think on that. a jew that is accepted to god is the only real jew. not one born in the flesh of abraham.

now then we have agreed that it under grace and we and those jews.the jews that are like to remain a jew most do what? be kosher, follow the feasts? that is what the messaniac jews do and preach. "god didnt say stop being a jew when you believe in the hamashiac yeshua" they preach solo fide but they do whenever those no apparent contradiction follow the torah and feasts.

is that where i should Go? thats fine and allowable but the act of the cross did away with the need for that. i dont have to celebrate hannukah.yom kippur, the passover etc. those all point to christ.

 

[Eventide]

sigh, you dont understand that.

Yes as mentioned I often don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[Levi]

That's fine.. I simply disagree.. Israel has been cut off and they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I do hope you will meditate deeply in the fact that Israel is 'blinded in part' I hope that the Lord will give you deep and full understanding of what this means.

Not because I believe you salvation hinges on this (although it is the reason for our acceptance)

But because there is a richness in this truth that has a burning ferocity of Holiness that can not be denied once you come to understand the ramifications of where it is we are going and what it is we are a part of.

I will leave you with some last scripture that I believe is key to this :

מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק Melchizedek

Hebrews 5:8-10

8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.


Melchizedek the Kingly priest:

Gen 14
8 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.â€
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.


1 Peter2:9

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

My Brother this is a ferocious truth about the lion of Judah.

If you can gain understanding here you will come into a fierce understanding of your faith!


Hebrews 5:11-12

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again.

 

[Eventide]

I do hope you will meditate deeply in the fact that Israel is 'blinded in part' I hope that the Lord will give you deep and full understanding of what this means.

Not because I believe you salvation hinges on this (although it is the reason for our acceptance)

But because there is a richness in this truth that has a burning ferocity of Holiness that can not be denied once you come to understand the ramifications of where it is we are going and what it is we are a part of.

I don't think that it's a big deal if Christians believe that they are 'spiritual Israelites', although I do think it's a big deal if they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel and then become wise in their own conceits. This is the Apostle's warning to the Gentile church in Rome.. and yet there we have perhaps the center of Replacement Theology and Amillennial Theology.

I will leave you with some last scripture that I believe is key to this :

מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק Melchizedek

Hebrews 5:8-10

8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.


Melchizedek the Kingly priest:

Gen 14
8 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.â€
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.


1 Peter2:9

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

My Brother this is a ferocious truth about the lion of Judah.

If you can gain understanding here you will come into a fierce understanding of your faith!

Thanks for sharing your fierce understanding of the truth here.

 

[Levi]

Levi,
ABRAHAM---ISRAEL
I must admit to being confused as to your concept of "Israel." Abraham truly had many sons (as you say). Among them are Ishmael and the sons of Keturah. Also among them would be the gentiles who have Abraham as the father of faith (Galatians). My question, is why do you call the sons of Abraham, Israel? We are sons of Abraham, yes, but are all sons of Abraham ... Israel? Where in the scriptures would you see that?

The Bible says that God promised to make him a nation with descendants as numerous as the stars. I didn't say that

Gen 32:28
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Israel is of the Line of Abraham through Jacob. The entire nation of Israel came via this son. I thought you would know this?

The entire nation up to Jesus who came from the line of the kings of Judah, His genealogy is in Mat and Luke.

God's promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Jesus!

ABRAHAM---GENTILES
I would agree that the Gentiles come under the certain blessings of Abraham. I am not seeing the NT writings as connecting Gentiles to the promises of Abraham to have many seed, but the NT connects the Gentiles to the promise to Abraham to be a blessing. Galatians 3:8 directly quotes Genesis 12. So then, we are sons of Abraham by Abraham being a blessing to the nations.

Its one and the same thing! Ask yourself these questions: Are you born again by the Spirit of God as poured out so that the promise may be fulfilled?

and are you in the Body of Christ? the lion of Judah.

Are you part of the royal priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?

BLESSINGS TO ISRAEL
Concerning your statement that God did not take the blessings of Israel and give them to the Church.....
The new covenant is mentioned as promised to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Of course Hebrews 8 quotes the promised. 1 Cor 4 alludes to the Church as ministers of the New Covenant. We celebrate communion and the pastor or elder holds up the cup and says "this is the New Covenant." Ephesians 2 speaks of the "middle wall of partition" being broken down in the death of Christ. It would seem to me that God did do something in which he gave to Gentiles the same blessings he promised Israel. I do not mean that he gave Israel's blessings to the Gentiles and now Israel has lost those blessings, but simply that God included Gentiles in those blessings. If you look at the New Covenant in the OT, it never promises that only Israel can receive the blessings promised. God can give blessings to all whom he chooses. His grace can super abound even beyond what he promised and he does not break his word.

Yes but these blessing have come from the line of Abraham through Jacob, Israel.
We are part of that!

They have been poured out on all men and the disciples being filled with the Holy Spirit, rejoicing and understanding that this was the fulfullment of God's promise to Abraham 'marvelled' that it was being poured out even on the gentiles!

Trust me brother the sooner you accept it the sooner you will understand the ferocity and Holiness of this fact, where it is we are going and what it is we are involved in!

I think we agree that there are connections between Gentile saints and the OT promises. Neither one of us see the Gentiles as "replacing Israel." But I think we are looking at certain terms in slightly different ways.

I'm not looking at terms, I am following the entire ream of scripture and worshiping our God in the way that I feel the Spirit is telling me.

We are priests in the nation of Israel, grafted in albeit but a peculiar priesthood not known under the law.

Levi paid his tithe to Melchizedek via Abraham before he was even born!

 

[Levi]

I don't think that it's a big deal if Christians believe that they are 'spiritual Israelites', although I do think it's a big deal if they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel and then become wise in their own conceits. This is the Apostle's warning to the Gentile church in Rome.. and yet there we have perhaps the center of Replacement Theology and Amillennial Theology.

Do you understand the mystery pertaining to Israel?

 

[Elijah674]

Do you understand the mystery pertaining to Israel?

Sure do. It is NO Mystery for me. Heb. 13:8 is not the problem, it is the Truth of 2 Peter 3:16 that is documented as Truth!

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

Do you understand the mystery pertaining to Israel?

I think so, and here is what I believe Paul is teaching the Christian church..

Israel (the nation of Israel and all its earthly ordinances described in Roms 9) is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. Israel as a nation has been cut off from the blessings of God because of their continued rejection of Christ.. this is outlined in the gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles.. Paul was raised up to be the Apostle to the GENTILES and to take the gospel to the ends of the earth while Israel remains blinded.

Christ is now building His church based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of the living God.. which Israel rejects til this day.. although this rejection is not permanent.. it's only until the fulness of the GENTILES come in.. to CHRIST..

THEN shall the Deliverer come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB.. yes Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night and in the morning of that Day the Sun rose upon him.. and Paul also tells us that the night is far spent and that the DAY is at hand.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ..

The nation of Israel will be DELIVERED in the end.. and they will know Christ as their King..

Paul then says as pertaining to the gospel they (the nation of Israel) are enemies, yet as pertaining to election, they are beloved because of the fathers.. the many OT patriachs who were justified in thier faith (given at that time) and who are Israelites.. they are spoken of throughout the OT and the NT.

It's about the nation of Israel and its ordinances.. how that even though they are blinded in part, that it's only until the fulness of the GENTILES come in and then they sahll be saved in that Day..

That's my .02

 

[mondar]

The Bible says that God promised to make him a nation with descendants as numerous as the stars. I didn't say that

Gen 32:28
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Israel is of the Line of Abraham through Jacob. The entire nation of Israel came via this son. I thought you would know this?

The entire nation up to Jesus who came from the line of the kings of Judah, His genealogy is in Mat and Luke.

God's promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Jesus!

Its one and the same thing! Ask yourself these questions: Are you born again by the Spirit of God as poured out so that the promise may be fulfilled?

and are you in the Body of Christ? the lion of Judah.

Are you part of the royal priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?

Yes but these blessing have come from the line of Abraham through Jacob, Israel.
We are part of that!

They have been poured out on all men and the disciples being filled with the Holy Spirit, rejoicing and understanding that this was the fulfullment of God's promise to Abraham 'marvelled' that it was being poured out even on the gentiles!

Trust me brother the sooner you accept it the sooner you will understand the ferocity and Holiness of this fact, where it is we are going and what it is we are involved in!

I'm not looking at terms, I am following the entire ream of scripture and worshiping our God in the way that I feel the Spirit is telling me.

We are priests in the nation of Israel, grafted in albeit but a peculiar priesthood not known under the law.

Levi paid his tithe to Melchizedek via Abraham before he was even born!

Levi, you did not take the time to read my post. I already mentioned that Gentiles are part of the seed of Abraham by faith, I already stated that there is a relationship of the Gentiles to Israel. The fact that you overlook the things I said and show no evidence that you are trying to understand what I said makes me feel like you are interested only in trying to win an argument by talking smack. If you prefer a one sided conversation in which you give me a lecture and I just listen, thats fine. I can withdraw. See ya later.

 

[jasoncran]

what is a jew to you eventide? that is where you are most confused. does remain a jew in christ?

jew: a descendant of abraham from the tribe of judah or benjamin
a follower of judaism.

which dies at the cross to you? and ponder this many a gentiles have converted to judaism since the very start of isreal. so many of those that are in "isreal" may not be jews by nationality but by faith. ie the khazar had some conversion to that and all modern jews come from that area.

 

[Levi]

Levi, you did not take the time to read my post. I already mentioned that Gentiles are part of the seed of Abraham by faith, I already stated that there is a relationship of the Gentiles to Israel. The fact that you overlook the things I said and show no evidence that you are trying to understand what I said makes me feel like you are interested only in trying to win an argument by talking smack. If you prefer a one sided conversation in which you give me a lecture and I just listen, thats fine. I can withdraw. See ya later.

It is hard not to get defensive when essentially defending a position that so many people reject.

I'm sorry if I have offended you and I do ask you to forgive me.

It would be good if we could continue the conversation on a sharing level, I would greatly appreciate that

 

[Eventide]

what is a jew to you eventide? that is where you are most confused.

I often get confused.. lol.. and I can only share biblical examples.. let's talk about the Apostle to the Gentiles.. Paul.. we know for a fact that he was IN CHRIST.. and he taught us that IN CHRIST there is neither Jew or Greek (Gentile), bond or free, or even male or female.. (Gal 3:28).. and yet in the letter to the Philippian church he says that he is an Israelite, of the tribe of Benjamin.. and of course we are still male and female in the flesh.. although not IN CHRIST..

On a broader scale.. I think that the term Jew refers to any Israelite.. or natural descendant of JACOB.. ie, his twelve sons. In 1st Corinthians, Paul tells us to give none offense.. neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.. in this sense I believe that Paul is referring to all Israelites.. not only the tribe of Judah per say.

Where I believe that many get confused is in not seeing the context of Romans 9-11 as pertaining to the nation of Israel and its earthly ordinances.. that the NATION is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. this is why I think that any Israelite can be saved today through the gospel just as any Gentile can.. because the context is not on a personal level but rather a national level.. Israel's role per say in the offices to which they were entrusted by God throughout the OT times..

does remain a jew in christ?

According to Paul, in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile.. see above..

jew: a descendant of abraham from the tribe of judah or benjamin
a follower of judaism.

I think that it's more biblically accurate to consider Jews descendants of JACOB.. not Abraham.. Abraham is the father of faith to all who believe as he did.. not Jews only, but Gentiles as well.

which dies at the cross to you? and ponder this many a gentiles have converted to judaism since the very start of isreal. so many of those that are in "isreal" may not be jews by nationality but by faith. ie the khazar had some conversion to that and all modern jews come from that area.

A Gentile could convert to Judaism correct ? Although that's a little different imo.. and regardless, their justification before God would not be determined by that, but rather by faith in the promises of God.. although to convert to Judaism today in light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.. I think that would be missing the forest for the trees so to speak.. or like leaving Christ to go back to the beggerly elements of the LAW as Paul says in Gal..