Why Sunday???

[Brother Lionel]

So really, the long and short of it is, the commandment is to rest on the Sabbath and to worship God every day. So if people choose to gather on Sunday and worship him it is not unbiblical since the Bible says nothing against it. They can rest on the Sabbath and got to church on Sunday.

But if you go to church on Sunday, to the place where you consider the sanctuary and the synagogue because the presence of God is there, then which day are you considering to be the holy day? Saturday or Sunday? God says to "Remeber the Sabbath day", and to "keep it holy". He did not say remember the Sabbath day but keep the first day holy. Now, please do not misunderstand me, you may go to church any day that you please, nothing is wrong with that. But lets be honest here, whether a normal church is large or small, their main "day" of worship is Sunday. They may hold services on Wednesday, Friday, or even Saturday, but their main day is Sunday, right? This is because the majority of Christians consider this day to be holy and sacred, which has absolutley no scriptural support. Not only that, but most Christians go to church on Sundays but regard the rest of the day as a normal day in which they work and do all sorts of things as if it were a normal day. According to the bible, God wants us to observe the Sabbath day differently. He wants us to observe the ENTIRE 24-HR period as a holy day. Not as most of us do on Sunday by going to church for an hour or two and then going about our business as usual. It appears to me that you guys are placing too much of an emphasis on the physical building. Going to church does not necessarily mean that one is a Christian. There are a lot of people who go to church week in and week out but has not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The building has little to do with salvation and living in the truth in obedience to God and His Word.

 

[Tina]

You mention church. Where is your church? Is it in your home?
.

We take part in corporate worship and no, my church home is not my physical home where I reside. We go to church just like anyone else would. Jesus went to church didn't He? In fact, the bible is clear that He went to church on the Sabbath (Luke 4:16).

Jesus went to church on the Sabbath? You don't even understand the meaning of church, do you?

Church mean "body of believers" or "family of believers". I have already explained to you through scriptures why the JEWS met on Sabbath, and Jesus was a JEW. The CHRISTIANS had no problems meeting on the 1st day of the week (Sunday). If you want to behave like a Jew, go ahead !! ... God is not going to punish us just because we worship Him on Sundays and other days instead of only Saturdays ! I asked you before, and I ask you again -- What will your church do if the congregation grows too big to accommodate services only on Saturdays? Will they turn away people and ask them to come early the following Saturday ? Many churches are holding multiple services on both Saturdays AND Sundays because of this reason. And the presence of God is not any less evident on Sundays as it is on Saturdays.

Bottom line is this: I can show you scripture after scripture (whether old or new testament) that supports the keeping of God's commandments, i.e. the fourth one, but you seem to lack that support when implying that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh day of the week to Sunday. Show me where God or any of His chosen people changed the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first.

Please read ALL my posts again ... Where did I ever say that the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday? Don't keep arguing for the sake of arguing. I said the Sabbath was always Saturday, it was never changed. But this is what Jesus Himself said in the NEW Testament :-

Mark 2:27-28
And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.â€Â

Luke 6:5
And He said to them, “The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus' claim in Mark 2:28 constituted a claim to being God. He had the right to determine how people should use the Sabbath. Mark 3 then goes on to demonstrate Jesus' sovereign authority over the Sabbath. Yes we are to keep the Sabbath holy, but not in such legalistic manner as you describe. That is why Christ made it a point of working on the Sabbath, told people to bear a burden on the Sabbath, and didn't mind if his disciples picked corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23-34). It was the PHARISEES who were very legalistic against working on the Sabbath !

When Christ says He is the Lord of the Sabbath, it means He became our Sabbath, so we rest IN HIM.

But lets be honest here, whether a normal church is large or small, their main "day" of worship is Sunday. They may hold services on Wednesday, Friday, or even Saturday, but their main day is Sunday, right? This is because the majority of Christians consider this day to be holy and sacred, which has absolutley no scriptural support.

Of course there is scriptural support, which I've already provided. Instead of ignoring them, go back and read my posts !

According to the bible, God wants us to observe the Sabbath day differently. He wants us to observe the ENTIRE 24-HR period as a holy day.

Where in the NEW Testament ? ..... Show us.

Not as most of us do on Sunday by going to church for an hour or two and then going about our business as usual. It appears to me that you guys are placing too much of an emphasis on the physical building. Going to church does not necessarily mean that one is a Christian.

That's right .... the same way observing the Sabbath does not necessarily makes you any more of a Christian !

There are a lot of people who go to church week in and week out but has not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The building has little to do with salvation and living in the truth in obedience to God and His Word.

Do ALL the people who go to church week in and week out on Saturdays accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour ? ... Show us proof that observing the Sabbath has led more people to turn to Christ !!

 

[Brother Lionel]

Tina,
First of all, the scriptures that you provided on your last post and the posts prior mentions nothing about the sacredness and importance of Sunday worship. The bible says that they met on the first day of the week, but they also met on the seventh. And I have reason to believe that they met on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Using that scripture to justify ignoring the fourth commandment is sad at best. You claim that you worship on Sunday because Jesus rose on Sunday. Well, if thats the case, why dont we worship on Thursday because that was when He established the New Covenant? Or why dont we worship on Friday because thats when He died and the ceremonial law was fulfilled. If anything, referring to the resurrection justifies the fourth commandment because He rested on the seventh day and went back to work saving man on Sunday. Also, if Sunday was the Christian day of worship and rest due to the resurrection, why did Peter, Paul, and others after them keep the Sabbath. As of matter fact, please explain to me the why the Sabbath was kept by Christians decades after Christ's ministry and Sunday worship didnt arrive on the scene until A.D. 150. If we are to worship and rest on Sunday, why didnt the early Christians start doing it until over a hundred years after Jesus' ministry? And you say that Christ has power to abrogate the Sabbath which is true. But the question is did He? And the answer is no. Yes, He is the Lord of the Sabbath but how did you percieve that He wants us to keep Sunday from this statement?? Do these scriptures tell us that Jesus transferred the day we rest and worship from the Sabbath to the first day?? If anything, these scriptures support the Sabbath truth! "The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath" simply shows us that this day belongs to Him because He created it. The law is not greater than the creator of the law because "that in this place is one greater than the temple" (Matthew 12:6), the creator of the temple, creator of all things - Jesus! When He stated "the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath", He revealed to us that the Sabbath was created for us, for our rest and worship to God. Man was not made for the purpose of serving the Sabbath with foolish man-made traditions, but the Sabbath was made to serve man, for rest and communion with God. This has nothing to do with "the transformation" of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday. Any decent theologian would tell you that...


Second of all, for you to say that you rest "In Him" is a crutch to justify your tradition because, again, their is no command in the New Testament that says this and none of the early Christians considered Sunday. The Ten Commandments has not changed and will never change. You admit that Saturday is the Sabbath but you refuse to admit that God wants us to obey His Commandments. Let me guess, because of the New Testament, we only have to obey nine commandments right? Do you honestly believe that God wants us to keep only nine of His Commandments? Honestly...

And lastly, for the record, Hebrews 4:9 says that "there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people." If you want more New Testament scripture that supports the keeping of the Sabbath, let me know.

 

[Tina]

Tina,
First of all, the scriptures that you provided on your last post and the posts prior mentions nothing about the sacredness and importance of Sunday worship. The bible says that they met on the first day of the week, but they also met on the seventh. And I have reason to believe that they met on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Using that scripture to justify ignoring the fourth commandment is sad at best. You claim that you worship on Sunday because Jesus rose on Sunday. Well, if thats the case, why dont we worship on Thursday because that was when He established the New Covenant? Or why dont we worship on Friday because thats when He died and the ceremonial law was fulfilled. If anything, referring to the resurrection justifies the fourth commandment because He rested on the seventh day and went back to work saving man on Sunday. Also, if Sunday was the Christian day of worship and rest due to the resurrection, why did Peter, Paul, and others after them keep the Sabbath. As of matter fact, please explain to me the why the Sabbath was kept by Christians decades after Christ's ministry and Sunday worship didnt arrive on the scene until A.D. 150. If we are to worship and rest on Sunday, why didnt the early Christians start doing it until over a hundred years after Jesus' ministry? And you say that Christ has power to abrogate the Sabbath which is true. But the question is did He? And the answer is no. Yes, He is the Lord of the Sabbath but how did you percieve that He wants us to keep Sunday from this statement?? Do these scriptures tell us that Jesus transferred the day we rest and worship from the Sabbath to the first day?? If anything, these scriptures support the Sabbath truth! "The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath" simply shows us that this day belongs to Him because He created it. The law is not greater than the creator of the law because "that in this place is one greater than the temple" (Matthew 12:6), the creator of the temple, creator of all things - Jesus! When He stated "the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath", He revealed to us that the Sabbath was created for us, for our rest and worship to God. Man was not made for the purpose of serving the Sabbath with foolish man-made traditions, but the Sabbath was made to serve man, for rest and communion with God. This has nothing to do with "the transformation" of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday. Any decent theologian would tell you that...


Second of all, for you to say that you rest "In Him" is a crutch to justify your tradition because, again, their is no command in the New Testament that says this and none of the early Christians considered Sunday. The Ten Commandments has not changed and will never change. You admit that Saturday is the Sabbath but you refuse to admit that God wants us to obey His Commandments. Let me guess, because of the New Testament, we only have to obey nine commandments right? Do you honestly believe that God wants us to keep only nine of His Commandments? Honestly...

And lastly, for the record, Hebrews 4:9 says that "there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people." If you want more New Testament scripture that supports the keeping of the Sabbath, let me know.

And in all these, you have still failed to explain what your church will do if your congregation grows.
Obviously your church is not growing, so that they can confine the service to no more than just Saturdays.

Did you know that the original readers of the book of Hebrews were mainly JEWISH ?
The writer assumed that they were very familiar with the institutions of Judaism. The warnings against turning away from Jesus Christ back to the Old Covenant also imply this identity. Other indications are the emphasis on the superior priesthood of Jesus and the many appeals to the authority of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Hebrews 4:9 ---- The Sabbath rest in view is the rest (inheritance) that every generation of believers and every individual believer enters into when he or she, like God, faithfully finishes his or her work. That work involves continuing to trust and obey God (i.e., walking by faith daily as opposed to apostatizing). Christians will enter into our rest when we receive our inheritance from Jesus Christ at His judgment seat (2 Corinthians 5:10). Millennial rest in the Promised Land will be the portion of Israel in the future. However this passage seems to be referring to eternal rest for all believers of which the Millennium is just the beginning. Israel will be the primary people God blesses and makes a blessing in the Millennium. Neither is this Sabbath rest the present rest that Christians enjoy because God has finished His work of providing salvation for us in Christ and we have entered into it by faith. That should be clear because the rest in view is still future for us (see verses 1, 6, 9, 11).


.

 

[Brother Lionel]

And in all these, you have still failed to explain what your church will do if your congregation grows. Obviously your church is not growing, so that they can confine the service to no more than just Saturdays.

What does this have to do with you showing me where the bible sanctioned Sunday odservance? For your sake, I'll give you the answer to this question. For the record, yes, my church is growing, growing quite well. We have services on Wednesday, Friday, of course Saturday, as well as Sunday. But obedience to God's Word is not defined as congregating into a building on a particular day. The purpose of the Sabbath is to rest and worship according to the commands of God which is lacking amoungst a vast majority of the Christian body. And let's be honest, most Christians dont even keep Sunday holy. They go to church for a fews hours and then treat the day like any other day. But regardless of what you say or how you justify it, God wants us to obey Him and His word. That includes keeping the commandments.

Did you know that the original readers of the book of Hebrews were mainly JEWISH ? The writer assumed that they were very familiar with the institutions of Judaism. The warnings against turning away from Jesus Christ back to the Old Covenant also imply this identity. Other indications are the emphasis on the superior priesthood of Jesus and the many appeals to the authority of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Did you know that the Sabbath was the Sabbath before the Jews were even a people, before the Old Covenant was given, and even before sin was in the world? The Sabbath and the Ten Commandments have nothing to do with the part of the Old Covenant which was done away with. If thats the case, the bible would contradict itself. How can you say the Sabbath is a part of the Old Covenant that was done away with when the Sabbath existed before the Old Covenant? The Sabbath is not an "institution of Judaism" as you say because the Sabbath existed before the Jews were even a people. It existed even before Abraham was here so when you say that this institution is a Jewish tradition which is done away with, you dont disagree with me but you disagree with the bible. And what makes it even worse, you use the sacrifice of Jesus and His establishment of the New Covenant to justify your tradition. But your idea of the New Covenant is flawed because, according to the bible, the only difference between the Covenants is where the law is placed, not the law itself. To imply that the law changes with the New Covenant is to imply that the law is flawed and needed to be changed. And since the Moral Law came from God, you indirectly imply that God made a mistake when He gave the Israelites the Law which I know you dont mean to but thats what happens when you say "we are under the New Covenant now" as if the Old Covenant was not good enough for you. The bible says that "My Covenant which they broke" and "finding fault with them" not the law, with them. The law does not change my friend, but the surface at which it is written does. God's Word says that His New Covenant is when He will put His laws on our minds and write them on our hearts as opposed to writting them on stone. Nothing has changed with His law except the surface.

Hebrews 4:9 ---- The Sabbath rest in view is the rest (inheritance) that every generation of believers and every individual believer enters into when he or she, like God, faithfully finishes his or her work. That work involves continuing to trust and obey God (i.e., walking by faith daily as opposed to apostatizing). Christians will enter into our rest when we receive our inheritance from Jesus Christ at His judgment seat (2 Corinthians 5:10). Millennial rest in the Promised Land will be the portion of Israel in the future. However this passage seems to be referring to eternal rest for all believers of which the Millennium is just the beginning. Israel will be the primary people God blesses and makes a blessing in the Millennium. Neither is this Sabbath rest the present rest that Christians enjoy because God has finished His work of providing salvation for us in Christ and we have entered into it by faith. That should be clear because the rest in view is still future for us (see verses 1, 6, 9, 11).

Wrong, the bible clearly says that there remains a Sabbath rest. You can philosophy about this scripture all you want but it is clear that the bible says what it says. And you mentioned that we should trust and obey God. That’s funny, that’s what I’ve been saying all along – obedience. Oh wait, we are to obey Him except when it comes to the fourth commandment, right? You said that we shall enter our rest but the bible says that there remains a rest for us, that’s what it says but you are saying something completely different.

“Neither is this Sabbath rest the present rest that Christians enjoy because God has finished His work of providing salvation for us.†Wrong again, salvation is not complete until we make to heaven. Until sin is eradicated, God’s work of salvation is not complete so try again.

 

[Tina]

.

Brother Lionel,


As I said, if you want to behave like a Jew of the Old Testament, you go ahead ....

In the New Testament epistles, there are only 2 references to the Sabbath (Colossians 2:16; Hebrews 4:4). In both these passages the apostle Paul clearly explains that the day is not a required day to be observed by Christians. To the Hebrews in the Old Covenant they were under obligation, but in the New Covenant neither Jews nor gentiles are. There is no command after the death and resurrection for the Church to keep the Sabbath as an obligation to Christ.

If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year (Leviticus 25:17). The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. In verses 8-24, Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year) which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors. Does anyone do this? Why not.

Hosea 2:11 -- "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbaths -- all her appointed feasts." .. Here we have God Himself saying these will come to an end, He is the cause of it. This is not a permanent end, and can be applied to Israel in her captivity or it can certainly fit in with the New Testament dispensation.

Didn't Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes, but for what reason? He was born under the law and kept all the law, if He violated even the smallest point he would have been disqualified to be the messiah. He would have become a transgressor and a sinner like us. Galatians 4:4 says, "God sent forth his son, made of a woman, born under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." .. Jesus was the only One who kept it perfectly. There are many who make an issue of Jesus being our example so we should imitate him in everything.

Well, Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, he observed all the feast days, He also kept the entire law of Moses (613 commands). He never married, never had a permanent home. He also was very bold standing up to those who challenged the Word and His teaching. In His miracles He walked on water, healed people of organic diseases instantly and resurrected many. Can we really use only the Sabbath as a means of following him and discard the rest ?

The point is that he kept all the laws, even the smallest parts including what is called the law of Moses that was applicable to him (ceremonial, civil, dietary, etc. .. Certain portions of the law Jesus was not under, such as sacrifices for sin). Do law keepers keep the 613 commands? The Jews did.

Didn't Paul keep the Sabbath? He went into the Jewish synagogues to preach to the Jews on their Sabbath day in Acts13:14-43, 17:2, 18:4. He kept it as a custom to the Jews but it was not an obligation. We need to make a distinction of the reason why it was kept not just that it was observed. In Acts 13:42-43, They did not go to worship by obligation under the law but simply for the reason that this was the best means of reaching their brethren. Paul and Barnabas had the freedom to assemble any day they had wished. As they congregated together in the temple they invited Paul and Barnabas to come back the following Sabbath to speak to them more about the Gospel, many of the Jews and Gentile proselytes to Judaism followed them. Paul and Barnabas admonished them to hold fast to the grace of God. Now where is grace found? In Christ, (Acts 13:44-52), Paul and Barnabas returned the following Sabbath to preach the Gospel to nearly all the inhabitants of Antioch, who were anticipating to hear their message. But they were met with stiff opposition from other Jews and Gentile converts to Judaism from the city. They became very jealous of their success with the people, so they expelled Paul and Barnabas from the area. It wasn't the law (Acts 13) that was being preached, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ, grace, of which they began training them in. this is not any proof that they kept the Sabbath under the New covenant. Paul gives us the reason why he kept the law in 1 Corinthians 9:19-20:

1 Corinthians 9:19-20
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

Simple answer, he made it clear he was not under the law but purposely put himself under it to reach those who were. Paul placed himself in many different situations, as one under the law (including the Sabbath) so he could reach the Jews with the Gospel. He became all things to all men so that he could present the gospel of grace, the only means of salvation. Paul's model of evangelism was to the Jews first until they rejected his message; he then turned to the Gentiles.

There is no record of Christians congregating outside the temple of Jews on the Sabbath, only in the temple. This mix was those who believed and those who did not. Certainly believers do not worship along with those who do not. What makes this interesting is that there are no more references to keeping the Sabbath after Acts 18:4-7. This makes one wonder with the church becoming more Gentile than Jewish this fact would certainly be addressed in Acts 15 or the epistles if wrong, but it is not. Certainly it would have been presented as an opportunity for correction as the gentiles were entering the Church. Since they would not be familiar with worshipping on the Sabbath day as the custom of Judaism. In Acts 15 this letter is written to address the essential things required for the fellowship of Jewish and Gentile Christians together. The keeping of the weekly Sabbath, or the observance of any feast day, are not mentioned. There is no command of eating clean and unclean foods, only a command to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, food containing blood, and food resulting from animal strangulation. This letter to the Gentile Christians was written by the guidance of the Holy Spirit through Jewish Christian elders who counseled together in the Jerusalem Church.

The epistles were mostly corrective letters reinforcing what was taught in person by the apostles and to add further revelation to what had already been taught. There was absolutely no warning against Sunday worship. In fact we find it is the very opposite, they were given freedom where they did not have before. Colossians 2:16 mentions not to judge on days, and Romans 14:6 says that we can pick whatever day we want to observe to the Lord.

From the primordial Church there was a transition (Acts 20:7). The writings show the early Jewish Christians kept both without any conflict, not like there is today. There was no challenge on this, unlike circumcision and the law that became a huge issue.

They along with the apostle Paul believed Romans 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- "telos" meaning he is the goal of its intent. he completed it and we enter into what he did by faith. Some questions to ask yourself, who or what did the apostles preach, a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the NT. There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved and live a Christian life, they MUST keep the Sabbath.


:amen

 

[Brother Lionel]

In the New Testament epistles, there are only 2 references to the Sabbath (Colossians 2:16; Hebrews 4:4). In both these passages the apostle Paul clearly explains that the day is not a required day to be observed by Christians. To the Hebrews in the Old Covenant they were under obligation, but in the New Covenant neither Jews nor gentiles are. There is no command after the death and resurrection for the Church to keep the Sabbath as an obligation to Christ.

Wrong again Tina,
Heb 4:4 is talking about heaven and uses the Sabbath truth as an allegory which represents the true rest we will receive in heaven. That's why verse nine says "there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of God." This has nothing to do with changing anything to Sunday, sorry... Also, Colossians 2:2 dealt with the ceremonial Sabbaths. This is obvious because none of the Ten Commandments deal with food, drink, festivals, or new moons. Paul was referring to The Passover, The Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, The Feast of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, The Feast of Tabernacles, and The Feast of Tabernacles which occurred on monthly and yearly Sabbaths. That's why Christ is our Passover because these holidays were pointing to Him just like the sanctuary typified Him which was directly linked to the ceremonial laws. When looking at the scriptures, you cannot take things and run with it. You have to look at the scriptures in its context. You have to study the scriptures and the culture which surrounded them - the Jewish culture. If what you are saying is true then Paul's writings would not be valid today because theologians would have seen that his writings contradicted themselves. For instance, this is what Paul had to say about keeping the commandments of God:

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
So you see, if what you are saying is true, then Paul is an inconsistent writer which you and I both know that this isn’t true. By the way, the word that Paul uses in the two verses to describe the word “commandment†is the greek word entolē, which is the same word used by Jesus when He describes the Ten Commandments in the gospels.

If one is to keep the Sabbath day as law then they are under the obligation to also observe the Sabbath year (Leviticus 25:17). The land is to be tilled for six years and the seventh year is the Sabbath year. In verses 8-24, Israel is instructed to number seven times seven Sabbath years (49) and the following year is the Jubilee (50th year) which would be observed by no sowing or reaping. All slaves were to be released, and the land they purchased is to be returned to the original owner. All the debts were to be forgiven. For those who want to make the Sabbath day mandatory let them abide by the law and return the land they bought and forget all their debtors. Does anyone do this? Why not.

Wrong again Tina,
The Sabbath of the Ten Commandment is not the decreed holiday Sabbaths. The seventh day Sabbath was instituted before the Old Covenant. This law is a divine principle from God, not a law written by Moses. And to answer your question, we do not do it because this was one of the ceremonial laws enacted by the people according to the Law of Moses. Lets keep it simple shall we? The Ten Commandments says nothing about observing the Sabbath year, tilling the ground, Jubilee, or slaves so where are you getting this from?

Hosea 2:11 -- "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbaths -- all her appointed feasts." .. Here we have God Himself saying these will come to an end, He is the cause of it. This is not a permanent end, and can be applied to Israel in her captivity or it can certainly fit in with the New Testament dispensation.

LOL! Again you are proving my point my friend. God says feast days, new moons, and after God says Sabbaths, what is His concluded statement? “All her appointed feastâ€Â… This has nothing to do with the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. Clearly God was referring to the feast days which occurred on the Sabbath. Again, you have to understand the culture to get a clear picture of what exactly is being said.

Didn't Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes, but for what reason? He was born under the law and kept all the law, if He violated even the smallest point he would have been disqualified to be the messiah. He would have become a transgressor and a sinner like us. Galatians 4:4 says, "God sent forth his son, made of a woman, born under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." .. Jesus was the only One who kept it perfectly. There are many who make an issue of Jesus being our example so we should imitate him in everything.
Well, Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, he observed all the feast days, He also kept the entire law of Moses (613 commands). He never married, never had a permanent home. He also was very bold standing up to those who challenged the Word and His teaching. In His miracles He walked on water, healed people of organic diseases instantly and resurrected many. Can we really use only the Sabbath as a means of following him and discard the rest ?

LOL! Sooooo, are you implying that we don’t follow Jesus??? I know your answer is no but Jesus said “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.†So let me guess, you’re saying that He was referring to only nine of “His Father’s commandments†right?

The point is that he kept all the laws, even the smallest parts including what is called the law of Moses that was applicable to him (ceremonial, civil, dietary, etc. .. Certain portions of the law Jesus was not under, such as sacrifices for sin). Do law keepers keep the 613 commands? The Jews did.

Again I say, No. We don’t have to keep the ceremonial laws because were “nailed the crossâ€Â. And are you saying that Jesus kept the law so that we don’t have to? And if your answer is yes, are you saying that Christ came to give us a license to sin? Was that His purpose?? I think not… But which is it? Should we keep the law or “Christ came to keep the law†so we don’t have to???

They along with the apostle Paul believed Romans 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." By trusting in Christ's work the law is fulfilled perfectly. Christ is the end Greek- "telos" meaning he is the goal of its intent. he completed it and we enter into what he did by faith. Some questions to ask yourself, who or what did the apostles preach, a day or the death and resurrection of the Savior? What saves someone? This is the message of the NT. There are three options, you can keep the Sabbath day and never be saved by Christ. You can be saved by Christ and never keep the Sabbath day or you can be saved and keep the Sabbath day by personal choice, but you cannot say for one to be saved and live a Christian life, they MUST keep the Sabbath.

Again Tina,
You’re missing the context of scripture. Paul was speaking about the Israelites and how they attempt to be saved by keeping the law – Rom 10:3 says “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of Godâ€Â... In other words, they are trying to be righteous on their own merit which cannot happen because of their sinful nature. Christ came to “fulfill†our righteousness so now instead of us being righteous by keeping law (which is impossible) we are now righteous by faith in Him. Now a believer is saved by grace, but AFTER they are saved, how do they live?? Do they live in sin or live in obedience to God and His Word?? They live in obedience Tina. That’s why James says faith without works is dead. How can you say you have faith, and attempt to pronounce blessings on one who is in need but DO nothing about it?? It’s the same with Jesus. How can you say you have faith in Jesus and that you are saved by Him and yet do nothing He says. That’s why He said “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?†So to say that all we have to do is believe and we’re automatically saved is sooo not true. God calls for obedience, obedience to His Word and His Law. Christ came to empower us to keep His law, all ten of them. Yes, Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness and He wants us to be obedient to Him, that includes keeping His commandments, all ten of them. Not TO BE SAVED, but BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED. Because Jesus is now our righteousness.

 

[Tina]

.
Brother Lionel,


John 5:16
For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:1-5
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!†But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless ?


First of all, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not subject of the Sabbath. As for his disciples, they were charged with breaking the Sabbath because they picked some heads of grain and ate them. Jesus corrected the Jewish leaders on their legalism (read the entire discussion in Matthew 12). Jesus did not condone working on the Sabbath, he just pointed out the folly of taking this law to the extreme where people could not eat or help others on the Sabbath.

No work could be done on Sabbath but Jesus worked on Sabbath and justified His disciples in doing the same. Yup. In the Old Testament no work could be done on the Sabbath, although it was ok to pull an ox out of the ditch.

The Lord Jesus in the New Testament is the Lord of the Sabbath and perfectly free to break it and even abolish it, since He is the one who set it up in the first place. Also, He is the reality of the shadows. The Old Testament Sabbath was a rest for God's people, but in the New Testament our real Sabbath is the One who said, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-ladened, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28) . Also, Hebrews tells us that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. This is NOT talking about an outward ritual of sitting around all day once a week reading the Torah, but about resting in Christ as our real inward peace and rest and sanctuary in this age and in full in the age to come.


.

 

[Brother Lionel]

LOL! Tina, Jesus said "I have kept my Father's commandments" so why are you saying that He didnt???? Now, Jesus did break the man-made traditions that were added to the Sabbath but Jesus never broke the Sabbath because He was perfect but I'm sure you know that already.

You also mentioned that He is the reality of the shadows. Apparently there is a disconnect in our conversation. I am not referringto the sabbaths that Moses spoke about, wrote about, and gave to the people. These are the "shadows" which Jesus fulfilled. But I am referring to the Sabbath that God Himself spoke with His own mouth, the Sabbath that He engraved in stone, the Sabbath that He gave not only to the Jews, but to all mankind in the beginning when He created time.

The Old Testament Sabbath was a rest for God's people, but in the New Testament our real Sabbath is the One who said, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-ladened, and I will give you rest."

Still no scripture to support all of this huh??? So is bowing down to idols for the Old Testament folk as well? Or how about taking the Lord's name in vain?? Wait, let me guess...the "New Testament Sabbath" is Sunday right? If this is so, where is the scripture that says this. Enough of the dogma and the philosophy my friend, show me some scriptures that says Sunday is the "New Sabbath" - not theological assumptions, scriptures. For instance, clear docrtinal scripture can be found in Matthew 5:19 where God says "whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Adversely, a dogmatic theological assumptions can be found in Mark 16:9 where it says "now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."

Also, Hebrews tells us that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. This is NOT talking about an outward ritual of sitting around all day once a week reading the Torah, but about resting in Christ as our real inward peace and rest and sanctuary in this age and in full in the age to come.

LOL!! How do you know that the author wasnt referring to the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments??? And where does it state that Sunday is our "New Sabbath"?? Oh wait, we are to "rest in Christ" on Sundays now right?????

 

[Tina]

^

Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist ?

 

[Brother Lionel]

^

Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist ?

Yes, I am. And your point is...

 

[Brother Lionel]

I was raised a baptist and was a devout baptist for over twenty years, until I started to seriously study the bible. I had a strong desire to make sense of everything that was going on today so I started to study. I wanted to know the truth - God's Truth. I then began to ask questions that my pastors and teachers could not answer. So I studied some more. And some more... And some more... To make a long story short, at the end of it all, I had no other choice but to choose Seventh-Day Adventism. Based on "sola scriptura", it is the closest to true Christianity that was practiced during the times of Jesus and the apostles, the early church Fathers, and what was being taught by the protestant men and women of the reformation. I used to call the SDA a legalistic cult, but as a I studied and studied and studied, I learned that there are a lot of things that are kept from a lot good spirit filled Christians who love God and want to know the truth. However, some Christians ironically refuse to search and recieve the truth. It never ceases to amaze me...

 

[unclejed]

I will say that the simplest answer concerning Sunday or "first day of the week" worship was simply a man made custom which turned into a tradition. Traditions and customs are fine when taken in the correct spirit. You are free to observe any custom or tradition you like as long as you do not make it a requisite of salvation and as long as by observing such tradition and observances one does not reguard him or her self as more pious or holy than those who do not adhere to the traditions and observances that you do. I was never one to join an organized religion (sect) and maybe that was because I came out of the catholic religion after I was "born again" and the Holy Spirit taught me Himself as I started out on my journey. This was extremely beneficial for me because after "hanging around" with Pentecostals and Baptists with a smidge of still a couple more denominations I was more confused than before I came to know Christ. The solution was to abandon what the myriad of religious sects wanted me to believe and trek out with the Holy Spirit as my guide and figure out exactly what "I" believed and formed my own special worship of our Lord, in other words (good scriptual words) "worked out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Each of us should do this instead of just "going along" with a particular preacher or sect.

 

[Brother Lionel]

I will say that the simplest answer concerning Sunday or "first day of the week" worship was simply a man made custom which turned into a tradition. Traditions and customs are fine when taken in the correct spirit. You are free to observe any custom or tradition you like as long as you do not make it a requisite of salvation and as long as by observing such tradition and observances one does not reguard him or her self as more pious or holy than those who do not adhere to the traditions and observances that you do. I was never one to join an organized religion (sect) and maybe that was because I came out of the catholic religion after I was "born again" and the Holy Spirit taught me Himself as I started out on my journey. This was extremely beneficial for me because after "hanging around" with Pentecostals and Baptists with a smidge of still a couple more denominations I was more confused than before I came to know Christ. The solution was to abandon what the myriad of religious sects wanted me to believe and trek out with the Holy Spirit as my guide and figure out exactly what "I" believed and formed my own special worship of our Lord, in other words (good scriptual words) "worked out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Each of us should do this instead of just "going along" with a particular preacher or sect.

Agreed...to an extent. I would say that traditions and customs are fine when taken in the correct doctrine - biblical doctrine. I would also say that we are free to observe any custom or tradition as we desire as long as it is in line with the principles of God, i.e. the Commandments of God. For instance, the catholic faith has no problem with idols in their temples even though the Commandments are clear in that regard. But because of tradition, they see no problem with this even though the bible says what is says.

 

[Tina]

.

^
Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist ?

Yes, I am. And your point is...

The SDA (false) prophetess .Ellen G. White. had a vision on June 27, 1850 , that Jesus was about to return to the earth. “My accompanying angel said, ‘Time is almost finished. The Pope had changed the day of rest from the 7th to the 1st day of the week'†(Early Writings, p. 65). Ellen White made a number of “end of the world†prophecies. Some of which were that the Civil War marked the end of the world (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 260), that some of those at a meeting with her in 1856 would be alive when Jesus returned (Testimonies for the Church, vol 1, pp. 131-132), and that she would be alive when Jesus returned (Early Writings, pp. 15-16).

This so-called change in the day of worship supposedly occurred sometime in the 4th century. The date given varies, but 325 AD is the most often quoted. Of course this is easy to disprove if one simply reads what Christians prior to that date had to say about what day they worshipped on. One must wonder how anyone can take as serious the belief that all Christians worshipped on the Jewish Sabbath until the 4th century and then simply changed because some Pope said, “Let's worship on Sunday from now on.†But that is what makes a cult a cult. The following quotes prove that Christians did not keep the 7th day Sabbath prior to 325 AD.


“Wherefore, also we keep the 8th day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose from the dead†(Epistle of Barnabas, 75-100 AD).

“Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish Law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace…If, therefore, those who brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death†( Ignatius of Antioch, 107 AD).

“On the day called Sunday all who live in the cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the Apostles of the writings of the prophets are read…But Sunday is the day on which we all hold a common assembly, because it is the first day of the week on which God…made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead†(Justin Martyr, 145 AD).

“We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath†(Tertullian, 200 AD).

“The Apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be services and reading of the holy Scriptures and the oblation, because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the place of the dead†(The Didascalia, 225 AD).

“The day of the light…was the day of his Resurrection from the dead, which they say as being the one and only truly holyday and the Lord's Day†( Eusebius of Caesarea, 319 AD).


The SDA will often quote some statement from a Catholic that says that the Catholic Church did change the day of worship to Sunday. What they chose to ignore is that to the Catholic Church, the Apostles were the first Catholic Bishops and all first century Christians were Catholics. So when the Catholic Church says that it did change the day of worship it means that the Apostles did this in the first century. It does not mean that the Catholic Church is admitting to having changed the day of worship in the 4th century.

The .REAL 3 Secret Reasons. why Seventh-Day Adventists keep the Sabbath are :-

1) They must vow Ellen G. White as an inspired prophet at their baptism !

2) Ellen G. White had to go to heaven to learn that, in spite of what the Bible says, the Sabbath law WAS NOT nailed to the cross.

3) Adventists actually borrowed the Sabbath law from the Seventh-day Baptists who were already keeping it !

Did you know that the Sabbath was the Sabbath before the Jews were even a people, before the Old Covenant was given, and even before sin was in the world? The Sabbath and the Ten Commandments have nothing to do with the part of the Old Covenant which was done away with. If thats the case, the bible would contradict itself. How can you say the Sabbath is a part of the Old Covenant that was done away with when the Sabbath existed before the Old Covenant? The Sabbath is not an "institution of Judaism" as you say because the Sabbath existed before the Jews were even a people. It existed even before Abraham was here so when you say that this institution is a Jewish tradition which is done away with, you dont disagree with me but you disagree with the bible.

Nehemiah 9:13-14
You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.


Notice that the Sabbath was “made known†to the Israelites. It was not “retold†or “re-learned†because it was new. Therefore, it was NOT a Creation Ordinance as claimed.

St. Paul informs us that the Mosaic Covenant, including the Sabbath, came into being 430 years after the promise of God to Abraham. It was not eternal. Further, St. Paul tells us that the covenant with the Israelites came to an end when Christ came. It was not everlasting.


Galatians 3:17-19

(NKJV)
And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

(NIV)
What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.


This is very clear Biblical evidence that the Old Covenant has a beginning and an ending. Therefore, the Sabbath command is NO longer valid. The Old Covenant was always “destined to pass away†(2 Corinthians 3:11). If there is any little bit of doubt that this means the Ten Commandments just read vs. 7: “If the ministry of death, carved in writing on stone…†No doubt should remain with the honest Bible student that the Ten Commandments, the sign of which is the Sabbath command, are no longer in effect.

Let us note right up front that while the Sabbath is called the sign of God's covenant with His people in the Old Covenant it is never called such in the New Covenant. The Old Testament contains lists of Sabbath restrictions (see Exodus 16:23,29; 20:10; 31:14-15; 34:21; 35:3; Nehemiah 13:19; Jeremiah 17:21-22), and the penalty for Sabbath violation-death-is made perfectly clear (see Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2; Numbers 15:35-36).

The New Testament, however, contains NO list of Sabbath restrictions and never is Sabbath-breaking listed among New Testament sins (see Mark 7:21-22; Romans 1:29-32; Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:1-4; Revelation 21:8). This is strange, indeed, if the 7th day Sabbath is still a requirement in the New Covenant as the SDA claims.


.

 

[francisdesales]

I will say that the simplest answer concerning Sunday or "first day of the week" worship was simply a man made custom which turned into a tradition. Traditions and customs are fine when taken in the correct spirit. You are free to observe any custom or tradition you like as long as you do not make it a requisite of salvation and as long as by observing such tradition and observances one does not reguard him or her self as more pious or holy than those who do not adhere to the traditions and observances that you do. I was never one to join an organized religion (sect) and maybe that was because I came out of the catholic religion after I was "born again" and the Holy Spirit taught me Himself as I started out on my journey. This was extremely beneficial for me because after "hanging around" with Pentecostals and Baptists with a smidge of still a couple more denominations I was more confused than before I came to know Christ. The solution was to abandon what the myriad of religious sects wanted me to believe and trek out with the Holy Spirit as my guide and figure out exactly what "I" believed and formed my own special worship of our Lord, in other words (good scriptual words) "worked out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Each of us should do this instead of just "going along" with a particular preacher or sect.

Agreed...to an extent. I would say that traditions and customs are fine when taken in the correct doctrine - biblical doctrine. I would also say that we are free to observe any custom or tradition as we desire as long as it is in line with the principles of God, i.e. the Commandments of God. For instance, the catholic faith has no problem with idols in their temples even though the Commandments are clear in that regard. But because of tradition, they see no problem with this even though the bible says what is says.

Stick to the topic, rather than making ignorant comments about Catholics... We do not worship statues or other art as God, which clearly is the point of the commandment - given that God commanded Moses to build an ark with angels on it OR that the TEMPLE had angels in it...

Regards

 

[Brother Lionel]

LOL!! Here we go again!!

I'm not going to entertain you with E.G. White rebuttals. But lets revisit the bible shall we??

You stated that The New Testament contains no list of Sabbath restrictions and never is Sabbath-breaking listed among New Testament sins. I would like to bring to your attention the following verses. All of which mention the Commandments of God:

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The word commandment in all of these verses is the greek word entolē, which is the same word Jesus used when He referred to the Ten Commandments. Could you please explain this? Also, please explain why every author of every book in the bible kept the Sabbath, including God (Luke 4:16), Paul (Act 17:2), and Peter, and all of Jesus' followers.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Stick to the topic, rather than making ignorant comments about Catholics... We do not worship statues or other art as God, which clearly is the point of the commandment - given that God commanded Moses to build an ark with angels on it OR that the TEMPLE had angels in it...

Regards

Ignorant??? Then tell me my friend. Why did the papacy take it upon themselves to completely remove the second commandment which dealt with images and statues. They removed the second commandment, changed the day which to keep holy to Sunday, and spilt the last commandment into two. Tell me, who gave them permission to change God's Ten Commandments? If you dont believe me, see for yourself:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... ommand.htm

I think thats a valid source, don't you? Look under the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" column (the last column to the right) and you will see that it is blank...

Why is it blank my friend???

 

[westtexas]

Lionel, I was looking online at some of your (Seventh Day Adventists) beliefs and doctrines and found this one that I have a question about.

(In the last days, the Sabbath test will be made plain. When this time comes, anyone who does not keep the Sabbath will recieve the mark of the beast and will be kept from heaven. TGC pg 449)

If this is what you believe do you not feel that your religion is a work based religion and is in direct conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no man can boast."? It sounds to me that you believe that you can get to heaven simply by following the law and the commandments.
Westtexas

 

[Free]

Please stop all discussion of Catholicism.

Thank you.