Why Sunday???

[Tina]

.

I'm not going to entertain you with E.G. White rebuttals.

I was hoping you would not entertain us at all ........ :biglol

You stated that The New Testament contains no list of Sabbath restrictions and never is Sabbath-breaking listed among New Testament sins. I would like to bring to your attention the following verses. All of which mention the Commandments of God:

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


The word commandment in all of these verses is the greek word entolē, which is the same word Jesus used when He referred to the Ten Commandments. Could you please explain this? Also, please explain why every author of every book in the bible kept the Sabbath, including God (Luke 4:16), Paul (Act 17:2), and Peter, and all of Jesus' followers.

Nice try ! ... but who are you trying to kid ? ....... :biglol

The whole teaching of Adventists regarding the Mark of the Beast centers on Revelation 14:12 which says that those who have the "commandments of God" do not receive the mark. Adventists claim that this passage is referring to the Ten Commandments, and Sunday-keepers cannot be keeping the Ten Commandments because the fourth commandment instructs worship on Saturday.

The best way to intepret the meaning of John's writings is to compare them with the other writings of John. The Greek word for "commandments" in Rev. 14:12 is "entole" which means "an order, command, charge, precept, injunction." The same word is used repeatedly in the writings of John to refer to the instructions of Christ. John uses an entirely different Greek word in his writings when he refers to the Ten Commandments : "nomas".

For example :-

Did not Moses give you the law {nomos}, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law {nomos}? Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19)

Jesus is referring to the 6th commandment "Thou shalt not kill" -- Exodus 20:13


According to John, the number one commandment {entolae} of Jesus to the Apostles was NOT Sabbath-worship, but for them to love one another :

A new commandment {entolae} I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34) .. This is my commandment {entolae}, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)


Notice how John refers to the "commandments" of God in his letter :

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments {entolas}. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments {entolas}; and His commandments {entolae} are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)


Earlier in the same letter John tells us exactly what the "commandments" of God are :

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His [God's] commandments {entolas} and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His [God's] commandment {entolae}, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He [God] commanded {entolaen} us. The one who keeps His [God's] commandments {entolas} abides in Him,... (1 John 3:21-24)


From this we can see that in John's writings the "commandments" of God are :

1. To believe in Jesus Christ
2. To love one another


While it is true that other Biblical authors used "entole" in reference to the Ten Commandments , the word was in fact used in many different ways by the authors of the New Testament :-


Ten Commandments (Matt. 15:3-6; 19:17-19; Mark 7:9-10; 10:19; Luke 18:20; 23:56; Rom. 13:9; Eph. 6:2)

The two great commandments of loving God, and loving your neighbor (Matt. 22:36-40; Mark 12:29-31)

Ceremonial laws and other laws from the Torah (Mark 7:8-9; 10:5; Heb. 7:5)

A father's instructions to his child (Luke 15:29)

Instructions the Father gave to Jesus or the Apostles (John 10:18; 12:49-50; 2 John 1:4)

A command the Pharisees gave to arrest Jesus (John 11:57)

Jesus's commands to His disciples (John 13:34; 14:15,21; 15:10-12; 1 Tim. 6:14; 1 John 2:3-8; 3:22-24; 4:21; 5:3; 2 John 1:6)

Paul's instructions to his disciples (Acts 17:15; Col. 4:10)

The Torah itself (Rom. 7:8-13; Eph. 2:15; Heb. 7:16-18; 9:19)

Paul's writings are the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor. 14:37)

Teachings of men (Titus 1:14)

Teachings of the Apostles (2 Pet. 3:2; 2 John 1:5)


As the author of Revelation, John NEVER used "entole" in any of his other writings in the New Testatment to specify the Ten Commandments. Based on what he wrote, it would have been uncharacteristic for him to use the word in that manner. So, while it is a possibility that John was speaking of the Ten Commandments, the weight of the linguistic evidence is that He was talking about the commandments to believe in Jesus and love our neighbor.


Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments [entol], and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Regarding Matthew 5:19 above, when Jesus talks about "these" commandments, He was most likely referring ahead to the commandments He is about to give to the people in the Sermon on the Mount, rather than referring back to the "Law" and "Prophets" of Matthew 5:17-18. The "law" in Matthew 5:17 refers to the Torah -- the first five books of the Bible -- which included 613 different laws. Many of them had to do with ordinances, sacrifices, cleansings, and offerings which the Christian Church has never taught or followed. Therefore, it seems highly unlikely Jesus was telling the people to "do and teach" all the commandments of the Torah. Instead, He was telling them to "do and teach" the commandments which he was about to give them in His sermon (love your enemies, do not be lustful, do not be angry, etc.)


In Ephesians and Colossians there are several closely related passages that address human traditions and warn against yielding to their deceptiveness. In one passage Paul lumps deceptive human traditions together in the phrase "law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15).

Notice this warning that Paul gave to those in Colosse : "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ" (Colossians 2:8). The ideas Paul was fighting in Colosse were not biblical ideas but worldly philosophical ideas rooted in human tradition.

It was also human tradition  not God's law  that Paul was combating in Ephesus. We can confirm this by examining both the meaning and usage of certain key Greek words that Paul uses in Ephesians 2 and comparing them to similar or identical Greek words in Colossians 2.

In the Bible, the word "commandments" generally refers to commands of God. But that is not always case. The context in which a command is given will normally reveal its source. For example, a "commandment" could originate from human rulers, military commanders or others who claim to have authority  regardless of whether their claim to authority is legitimate.

This fact is important. In Titus 1:14 Paul uses the Greek word "entole" for "commandments" which he clearly labels to be "of men" .. He uses the same word for "commandments" when he writes of "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" in Ephesians 2:15. This Greek word "entole" is directly related to the Greek word "entalma", also translated "commandments"  referring to "commandments and doctrines of men"  in Colossians 2:22.

The point is that Paul's use of "entole" (Ephesians 2:15) and "entalma" is not restricted to God's commandments. Claiming that in Ephesians and Colossians these words should always be interpreted as referring to God's law is unsupportable. Both words can be, and often are, used in other ways.


.

 

[francisdesales]

[
Ignorant??? Then tell me my friend. Why did the papacy take it upon themselves to completely remove the second commandment which dealt with images and statues. They removed the second commandment, changed the day which to keep holy to Sunday, and spilt the last commandment into two. Tell me, who gave them permission to change God's Ten Commandments? If you dont believe me, see for yourself:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... ommand.htm

I think thats a valid source, don't you? Look under the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" column (the last column to the right) and you will see that it is blank...

Why is it blank my friend???

First of all, God didn't "number" the commandments. MEN do. And second of all, what YOU (not the bible) call the "second" commandment is wrapped into the first. It is UNDERSTOOD that having only ONE God to worship would preclude making false idols to worship, so YOUR second commandment is redundant. Having no idols IS having no gods other than the one True God... Really, what is the difference between the first and the second, except that the second expands on the meaning of the first (your numbering).

As to permission to "change" the Ten Commandments, God did. Who gave them authority to discontinue circumcision? God. At least that is what the Bible claims... The Scriptures clearly tell us that the Apostles had the power to bind and loosen upon the Christian community, and this was backed up in heaven. According to Matthew 16 and 18, God gave the Christian community the authority to move the sabbath to Sunday, since that is the NEW Creation for us - the Resurrection. Does Jesus tell the Apostles "don't you dare move the day of the Sabbath"? No, He says "whatever you bind..."

Just as Saturday REPRESENTS (not literally) the completion of the first creation, Sunday represents for us the second creation. Naturally, Jews (or wanna be Jews) didn't/don't care for that since their traditions were changed. Thus, today's Judaizers, the SDA, continue to complain about traditions. Do you also complain about circumcision and the dietary laws, as well?

Can you find me a Scriptural passage where God tells the Jews which specific day to celebrate the Sabbath? God tells them to celebrate the Sabbath, but doesn't lay out the days of the week and instruct them to do it on Saturday. That is a Jewish tradition. Thus, what was changed was a Jewish tradition.

Regards

 

[Brother Lionel]

So explain the fact that the Sabbath was the Sabbath BEFORE the Jews were even a people if it was only a "Jewish" tradition. This is so funny!! God says not to lie, cheat on your spouse, murder, dishonor our parents, bow down to idols and put other Gods before Him, and no one says that these are"Jewish traditions" but are principles of life. But when we mention the fourth commandment, I'm being told that it is a "Jewish thing" this is so funny! So nine laws are principles to live by and one is a Jewish tradition?? Are you serious???

 

[Brother Lionel]

So, based on your words, this is how the commandments pan out...

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Principle of Life

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments. - Principle of Life

3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. - Principle of Life

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Jewish Tradition

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. - Principle of Life

6 “You shall not murder. - Principle of Life

7 “You shall not commit adultery. - Principle of Life

8 “You shall not steal. - Principle of Life

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Principle of Life

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.â€Â
- Principle of Life

Now, be honest... Does this look right????

 

[Free]

So, as I stated earlier, the commandment is to rest; that is how it is to be kept holy. Worship on Sunday is fine then and actually, since it involves work, it cannot be done on the Jewish Sabbath.

What you are confusing is the commandment to rest and the Jewish tradition of worshiping on the Sabbath.

 

[Brother Lionel]

So, as I stated earlier, the commandment is to rest; that is how it is to be kept holy. Worship on Sunday is fine then and actually, since it involves work, it cannot be done on the Jewish Sabbath.

What you are confusing is the commandment to rest and the Jewish tradition of worshiping on the Sabbath.

We should worship everyday of the week so its not about what building you go into or when, thats not the issue. The issue is that most the Christian body disregard Saturday and regard Sunday as the primary day of holiness, rest, and worship and thats a problem. Its a problem because God, nor his Word sanctioned no such thing. I percieve that you are Roman Catholic so surely you should appreciate this. Even this statement from one of your priests says that the bible says NOTHING about this "change":

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath (Even though he just admitted that the bible says no such thing). People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." LOL!!! WOW.... And the source is cited below...

Source: Sentinel, Pastor's Page (Fr. Leo Broderick), Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

 

[Brother Lionel]

By the way, the priest who stated this is the Senior Priest at the Archdiocese in the Marine City, Michigan area. Here's the link if you want to write him. ;)

http://www.ourladyontheriver.net/contact.php

 

[Tina]

.

So explain the fact that the Sabbath was the Sabbath BEFORE the Jews were even a people if it was only a "Jewish" tradition. This is so funny!! God says not to lie, cheat on your spouse, murder, dishonor our parents, bow down to idols and put other Gods before Him, and no one says that these are"Jewish traditions" but are principles of life. But when we mention the fourth commandment, I'm being told that it is a "Jewish thing" this is so funny! So nine laws are principles to live by and one is a Jewish tradition?? Are you serious???

Based on the Old Testament, the Israelites were told to keep the Sabbath holy. Traditionally this is from just before sunset on a Friday to about an hour after sunset on Saturday, this was in line with the old covenant with God, thus the "Jewish Sabbath" is a Saturday.

As a Christian however, there is NO biblical evidence in the New Testament that states that a Sabbath day should be maintained. However, it is TRADITION that we keep at least one day for God and was made to be Sunday as it is known as the "first day of the week" which also represents the day of Jesus' resurrection.

The main difference of the Sabbath today between Jews and Christians is when is the Sabbath? The Jewish Sabbath is traditionally from Friday night to Saturday night. The Christian Sabbath traditionally is Sunday. However, Sabbath literally refers to a "Day of Rest" , so whether it is Saturday or Sunday, it does not matter.


The Sabbath commandment was given by God, along with the other 9 commandments, to the Israelites at Sinai :-

Exodus 20:8-11
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


The Exodus account of the commandments refers to the creation and the fact that God rested on the seventh day as the reason for the Sabbath day. Interestingly, this was the way the Israelites needed to learn to rest in the Lord.

When Moses again gave his last speech to the Israelites about the 10 Commandments later in the Book of Deuteronomy, there is a different reason given for keeping the Sabbath this time.


Deuteronomy 5:12-15
Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.


Interestingly, the reason given in this rendition of the commandments is not creation, but the Israelites' deliverance from Egypt! Throughout the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, God is clearly addressing the Israelites when He commands them to observe His Sabbaths.


Exodus 31:12-18
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever ; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’†And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


This scripture is proof that God sanctioned Sabbath only for the Israelites. He specifically singled out the Sabbath for the Israelites (Jews) to keep as long as they reject Christ and hold on to the Old Covenant.

The Sabbath day was listed in the covenant with the other nine commandments, but in addition it was also the sign of the covenant with Israel and as such is distinctly unique from the other nine commandments. With the exception of the Sabbath commandment, the new covenant (New Testament) restates each of the other nine commandments. The Sabbath commandment is not restated as a commandment to keep in the way Israel kept it because it's purpose as a sign was fulfilled in Christ much like the command of circumcision first given to Abraham. To keep a literal Sabbath day is to disregard the work of Christ and the sabbath rest that was established in the new covenant. The Sabbath commandment was transformed into a Sabbath rest in Christ. This is why the New Testament does not restate the need to observe the Sabbath Day, or command keeping the Sabbath Day; nor does it change the Sabbath Day to a different day.


Colossians 2:16-17
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

We should worship everyday of the week so its not about what building you go into or when, thats not the issue. The issue is that most the Christian body disregard Saturday and regard Sunday as the primary day of holiness, rest, and worship and thats a problem. Its a problem because God, nor his Word sanctioned no such thing.

Actually it’s a problem only for strange sects like the SDA. You have yet to prove to us where exactly in the New Testament God commanded CHRISTIANS to rest and keep holy ONLY on Saturdays. If you insist on using Hebrews 4 to prove that, then we will take it that it’s the usual distortion of God’s Word by a Cult ! … as apposed to many NT Scriptures I have used to prove that Sabbath is not a strict commandment as confirmed even from right out of Jesus’ mouth !

I percieve that you are Roman Catholic so surely you should appreciate this. Even this statement from one of your priests says that the bible says NOTHING about this "change":

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath (Even though he just admitted that the bible says no such thing).

Source: Sentinel, Pastor's Page (Fr. Leo Broderick), Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

This, in my opinion, is just a straw argument. The Roman Catholic Church claims to be the “one true church†and claims the “divine†right to change practice and traditions because they claim Peter was their first Pope who was the “rock†and to whom Jesus gave the “authority to bind and loose†which they claim was handed down through 265 Popes through “unbroken†apostolic succession..

Non-Catholic Christians don’t strictly follow Sabbatical practice on Saturdays not because of what the Catholic Church changed but because of what the Bible says in plain, clear language about the issue of Sabbath. Just because you persist in ignoring, downplaying or even rejecting the New Testament truths I have taken pains to present to you, it does not make your views on Sabbath correct.

People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy."

I am a Sola Scriptura believer, but reject what the SDA teaches because it contradicts the New Testament and puts people in unnecessary bondage by forcing them to keep holy only Saturdays just because of what Ellen White taught !

There are many Christians today that have to work on Saturdays and even Sundays, so they set aside a weekday for the Lord. God is not going to punish them for that and we are also not to judge them. If you insist on judging or condemning them, then you and the SDA as a whole will be judged one day by the Lord for being legalistic and judgmental which Jesus Himself condemned !


.

 

[francisdesales]

So explain the fact that the Sabbath was the Sabbath BEFORE the Jews were even a people if it was only a "Jewish" tradition. This is so funny!! God says not to lie, cheat on your spouse, murder, dishonor our parents, bow down to idols and put other Gods before Him, and no one says that these are"Jewish traditions" but are principles of life. But when we mention the fourth commandment, I'm being told that it is a "Jewish thing" this is so funny! So nine laws are principles to live by and one is a Jewish tradition?? Are you serious???

Whose laughing here?

I am still waiting for you to point out in the Decalogue where it says SATURDAY is the "official" day of worship that transcends Jewish tradition... Where does the commandment state the SPECIFIC day??? This whole argument rests upon your invention (or the SDA's) that SATURDAY worship is the only day God demanded/commanded that we worship. It says keep holy the sabbath, not keep holy Saturday...

Thanks

 

[francisdesales]

By the way, the priest who stated this is the Senior Priest at the Archdiocese in the Marine City, Michigan area. Here's the link if you want to write him. ;)

http://www.ourladyontheriver.net/contact.php

I would say dropping the requirement to be circumcised was even more "shocking" to Judaizers. Sunday worship is not that much different than the decision to fast on different days of the week. Consider the Didache, written during the time of the New Testament. In there, we see the desire of the nascent Christian community desiring to separate themselves from their intransigent brothers. One way of doing this was to stop fasting on the same days.

But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Didache, 8:1

The "hypocrites" were those who whined and complained about Jewish customs not being upheld - as if the second and fifth day were so special.

same with the Saturday Sabbath. Christians changed the sabbath to Sunday because they didn't want to be associated with the "hypocrites" and prefered to stress the Resurrection and the New Creation. Christians still uphold the commandment of honoring the Sabbath, just on a different day.

Simple as that. Only the "hypocrites" continue to complain...

Regards

 

[TheCatholic]

RE: Why Sunday???

Ceremonial Saturday worship was part of the Moasic Covenant, and was carried into the Davidic Covenant.

But it is not part of Christ's Covenant, and we are not bound by those ceremonial rules of other covenants to which we do not belong.

As for the commandment: Christians follow the moral meaning of the Commandments, and the moral meaning of this one is to set aside a day for God. Traditionally, Christians have chosen to make that day the day Christ rose from the dead: The first day of the week.

 

[Elijah674]

Tina replies in part:
Nice try ! ... but who are you trying to kid ? .......

The whole teaching of Adventists regarding the Mark of the Beast centers on Revelation 14:12 which says that those who have the "commandments of God" do not receive the mark. Adventists claim that this passage is referring to the Ten Commandments, and Sunday-keepers cannot be keeping the Ten Commandments because the fourth commandment instructs worship on Saturday.

The best way to intepret the meaning of John's writings is to compare them with the other writings of John. The Greek word for "commandments" in Rev. 14:12 is "entole" which means "an order, command, charge, precept, injunction." The same word is used repeatedly in the writings of John to refer to the instructions of Christ. John uses an entirely different Greek word in his writings when he refers to the Ten Commandments : "nomas".

Well gal, I am not a Adventist nor ever could be! Yet, according to Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 which is TWICE documented (Gen. 41:32) the 666 Mark is Nothing new. I personally find this test for the professed 'c'hristian world befor Christ comes again. See Exod. 16:$ + verses 27-28 for ones Refusal to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS with just this one testing.
--Elijah

 

[Brother Lionel]

Blah Blah Blah Blah.....

This is amazing!

Jesus kept the Sabbath

Paul kept the Sabbath

John kept the Sabbath

All of John's followers in Asia Minor kept the Sabbath


But you all are telling me that "we dont have to anymore"....amazing!!!

How can you say the fourth commandment is of no consequence anymore because of Jesus when Jesus kept it all of His life? And not only that, but those after Him kept the Sabbath all of their lives. And I repeat, its also amazing to hear that only one of the Ten Commandments is a "Jewish tradition" but the other nine are still binding today....huh???

Please explain this to me people!!! (And please, explain with scripture, please)

Why do I need to "prove" to you that the Sabbath is still intact?? If the commandment of not committing murder is still valid today, why do I have to explain myself regarding the fourth one??? If anything, you should attempt to prove to me that the fourth commandment is of no consequence anymore, which I doubt you can so I can see why you want proof - because you cant find any for yourself in support of Sunday.

 

[westtexas]

Lionel, I was looking online at some of your (Seventh Day Adventists) beliefs and doctrines and found this one that I have a question about.

(In the last days, the Sabbath test will be made plain. When this time comes, anyone who does not keep the Sabbath will recieve the mark of the beast and will be kept from heaven. TGC pg 449)

Lionel, let me bump this question up again. I understand your position on Sabbath worship, but is the SDA viewpoint above also yours? Do you believe that those of us who worship on Sunday (and in your opinion do not keep the Sabbath) are unsaved?

Westtexas

 

[Brother Lionel]

If they are willingly disregarding the Sabbath although they're aware and knowledgable about what God requires??? Yes!! I'll go even further. If a man or women lives a life of unrepented aldultery, will they be unsaved in the end??

 

[Tina]

.

Lionel, let me bump this question up again. I understand your position on Sabbath worship, but is the SDA viewpoint above also yours? Do you believe that those of us who worship on Sunday (and in your opinion do not keep the Sabbath) are unsaved?

Don't be surprised that Lionel will not reply to you on this... This is one of the false doctrines of SDA.

Well gal, I am not a Adventist nor ever could be! Yet, according to Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 which is TWICE documented (Gen. 41:32) the 666 Mark is Nothing new. I personally find this test for the professed 'c'hristian world befor Christ comes again. See Exod. 16:$ + verses 27-28 for ones Refusal to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS with just this one testing.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which it may be said, “ See, this is new� It has already been in ancient times before us.

Ecclesiastes 3:15
That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past.

Genesis 41:32
And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.


I don’t see how any of the above scriptures are remotely referring to the 666 mark of the beast, or even relevant to the topic of this thread.


..... ....... totopic



Exodus 16:27-28
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?


Obviously you have not read the whole thread. Why stop at this one scripture, when in fact there are so many other similar scriptures that warn against not keep the commandments. Please read the entire thread where I have provided many NEW Testament scriptures to prove why Saturday Sabbath is no longer a requirement for CHRISTIANS …. Read also the whole of Matthew 12 where Jesus DEFENDED His disciples for plucking corn on the Sabbath day !

Matthew 12:5
Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless ?

Blah Blah Blah Blah.....

This is amazing!

Jesus kept the Sabbath

Paul kept the Sabbath

John kept the Sabbath

All of John's followers in Asia Minor kept the Sabbath


But you all are telling me that "we dont have to anymore"....amazing!!!

How can you say the fourth commandment is of no consequence anymore because of Jesus when Jesus kept it all of His life? And not only that, but those after Him kept the Sabbath all of their lives. And I repeat, its also amazing to hear that only one of the Ten Commandments is a "Jewish tradition" but the other nine are still binding today....huh???

Please explain this to me people!!! (And please, explain with scripture, please)

Why do I need to "prove" to you that the Sabbath is still intact?? If the commandment of not committing murder is still valid today, why do I have to explain myself regarding the fourth one??? If anything, you should attempt to prove to me that the fourth commandment is of no consequence anymore, which I doubt you can so I can see why you want proof - because you cant find any for yourself in support of Sunday.

Blah Blah Blah Blah ……..

Repeating the same old questions that have already been clearly addressed in your attempt to TROLL and distract is not going to make your cult’s case any stronger !

Please ask a NEW question …. If you don’t have one ….. please go back and re-read the entire post instead of wasting our time !

If they are willingly disregarding the Sabbath??? Yes!! I'll go even further. If a man or women lives a life of unrepented aldultery, will they be unsaved in the end??

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies .

Matthew 23:34
Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Luke 18:22
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.â€Â

Luke 21:12
But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

Luke 21:34
But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

Romans 1:26-32
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful ; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 13:13
Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:20-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Peter 4:3
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentilesâ€â€when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Revelations 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelations 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€Â

Revelations 17:6
I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (persecution) And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.


When one examines the major sins pointed out in the New Testament as in the scriptures above , the “great sin" of Sabbath-breaking that Adventists keep harping upon does NOT appear to have caught the attention of the authors of the New Testament !

In the OLD Testament, the Israelites (Jews) were punished for rejecting the old covenant and the Sabbath, the sign of the old covenant.

Show me one scripture in the New Testament where Sabbath-breaking is considered a sin .

On the contrary, I have provided ample scriptures where Jesus argued with and even condemned the Pharisees for being legalistic about it ! ... In the following two verses, Jesus not only called Sabbath breakers blameless , but broke the Sabbath Himself :-


Matthew 12:5
Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are BLAMELESS ?

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only BROKE the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Tina,
Number One -The only scripture you need is when God Himself spoke to the children telling them to keep His principles. If the New Testament says nothing about the Sabbath in terms of transferring it or even mandating New Testament Christians to keep it, we can only assume that what God said at Sinai still stands.

Number Two - I'll pretend that the last verse you provided was not used to justify breaking the Sabbath because Jesus was perfect and He never broke God's law (But I'm assuming you know that already... :naughty)

 

[wavy]

I'll pretend that the last verse you provided was not used to justify breaking the Sabbath because Jesus was perfect and He never broke God's law (But I'm assuming you know that already... :naughty)

The author of John did consider Jesus perfect, but he also viewed him as exlex. The Jewish law simply didn't apply to him. In Jn viii.17; x.34; xv.25, Jesus calls the Jewish law 'their/your' law. The only other person to speak of the Jewish law in this way in the gospel of John is Pontius Pilate, a gentile of course who obviously didn't consider the Jewish law to apply to him either. (Jn xviii.31)

And notice that it is the author himself asserting that Jesus broke the Sabbath, so if you believe the bible is authoritative, you have to accept what he said.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Tina]

.

Number One -The only scripture you need is when God Himself spoke to the children telling them to keep His principles. If the New Testament says nothing about the Sabbath in terms of transferring it or even mandating New Testament Christians to keep it, we can only assume that what God said at Sinai still stands.

If this is your case, then you should keep all of the other 603 laws too ........ :biglol

Number Two - I'll pretend that the last verse you provided was not used to justify breaking the Sabbath because Jesus was perfect and He never broke God's law (But I'm assuming you know that already... :naughty)

Which only proves my point ..... that breaking the Sabbath did not make Him any less perfect, because He knew that He was the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5) .


.

 

[Elijah674]

Report this postReply with quote Re: Why Sunday???
by Tina on Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:44 pm

... (removed by Elijah for this below)

Elijah674 wrote:
Well gal, I am not a Adventist nor ever could be! Yet, according to Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 which is TWICE documented (Gen. 41:32) the 666 Mark is Nothing new. I personally find this test for the professed 'c'hristian world befor Christ comes again. See Exod. 16:$ + verses 27-28 for ones Refusal to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS with just this one testing.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which it may be said, “ See, this is new� It has already been in ancient times before us.

OK: This verse tells us that the 666 thing is NOTHING NEW in bottom/line testing. In Exod. 16 we see God TESTING the Children for FORTY YEARS on His LAW to see if they were SAFE To go into their Land of Cannan! And they were TESTED ON ONLY HIS ONE 7th Day Sabbath Heb. 13:20 ETERNAL COVENANT Commandment. Exod. 16:4.. 25-28 & 35.

Now we see the Word of God AGAIN saying the same repeat!

Ecclesiastes 3:15
That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past.

OK: There are so very few times in all of the Lord Word that things are not REQUIRED to repeat, that God tells us of these to make it easy for us. Such as the rainbowin the sky, Nah. 1:9 sin will not arise a SECOND Time, and but few others.

Genesis 41:32
And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

And this was given to let you see that Gods WORD will be as 'TWICE DOCUMENTED'. If one BELIEVES the Holy Spirits Inspiration??? So the 666 TEST is seen in the Bible in [somewhat like] fashion.
One Sabbath Day Commandment only.

Tina said:
I don’t see how any of the above scriptures are remotely referring to the 666 mark of the beast, or even relevant to the topic of this thread.

Me again: Tina, 'i' understand that you do not 'see'..as Heb. 5's milk/fed one, or that you do see & have past the point of heb. 5 to Heb. 6:6???
. But as the Eccl. verses documented, what IS NEW?? I wonder if the FORUM had ever wondered about the crucixion of Christ [AGAIN??] (as the Eccl. verse DOCUMENT?) Well if so, read Heb. 6:6 AGAIN.
---Elijah