Why Sunday???

[Brother Lionel]

Ok so since you guys only keep nine. Would you please respond to this statement by the Paul?

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine (wasnt the word he referred to the OT since the NT wasnt cannonized as scripture when he wrote this?). For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward. (Did he use OT scripture for NT doctrine? Yes, yes he did)
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. - 1Ti 5:17-21

Does "doing nothing by partiality" include keeping the Ten Commandments? I mean, since you only keep nine, is not that partially obeying God's commandments? Because God said "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! - Deu 5:29. Does all mean nine or all ten? Does always and forever include today?

Exd 31:16, 17 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (meaning forever). It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever (Does that include today?): for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed (clearly this statute transcends Jew and Gentile because when God made the heavens and the earth, there wasnt Jew or Gentile, there wasnt even sin). This is why it is a perpetual covenant to observe forever.

 

[Elijah674]

You probably wont read all of this so I'll make my question clearer: Are you saying that we should keep only nine commandments now?

My reply is the same as before .....

WE KEEP THE NINE COMMANDMENTS AND KEEP EVERY DAY OR ANY DAY HOLY .


Oh by the way, this will be my last time replying to your repeated questions ......

[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Elijah here: It does not matter what a one time MATURLY OPPORTUNITY one does in Disobedience, in time there is NO way that God can ever again reach him! They just FLAT OUT WILL NOT ONEY! Abd here we see who there DESIRE then belongs to. The Holy Spirit can NO longer reach them. Cain was satans first full/fledged convert after making his Fatal FREE DECISION.

 

[Tina]

.

Ok so since you guys only keep nine. Would you please respond to this statement by the Paul?

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine (wasnt the word he referred to the OT since the NT wasnt canonized as scripture when he wrote this?).

Did you know that the writings of Scripture were canonical at the moment they were written ? .. A book of Scripture belonged in the canon from the moment God inspired its writing. It was simply a matter of God’s convincing His human followers which books should be included in the Bible.

For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward. (Did he use OT scripture for NT doctrine? Yes, yes he did)
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. - 1Ti 5:17-21

Does "doing nothing by partiality" include keeping the Ten Commandments? I mean, since you only keep nine, is not that partially obeying God's commandments?

I honestly have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion that this scriptures have anything to do with Sabbath or even the 10 commandments. This passage is about appointment of qualified church leaders and Paul was urging Timothy on behalf of the judges to judge fairly. God, Christ Jesus, and the elect angels are all judges , and chosen angels, in contrast to satan and other fallen angels, do nothing out of favoritism.

Please stay on topic and read the entire context of scriptures, including history and background before drawing blunt subjective conclusions.

....... :angry2

Because God said "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! - Deu 5:29. Does all mean nine or all ten? Does always and forever include today?

Exd 31:16, 17 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (meaning forever). It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever (Does that include today?): for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed (clearly this statute transcends Jew and Gentile because when God made the heavens and the earth, there wasnt Jew or Gentile, there wasnt even sin). This is why it is a perpetual covenant to observe forever.

I am not going to address this as it has been addressed before.

Please go back to Page 5 and read my 2nd post where I addressed both Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 31.


.

 

[lovely]

Jesus is our Sabbath, abide in Him daily and to the end. The Lord bless.

 

[Adullam]

The early Christians met daily. That is the NT standard. Some Christians (a small flock) still meet daily.

 

[TheCatholic]

RE: Why Sunday???

Ceremonial Saturday worship was part of the Moasic Covenant, and was carried into the Davidic Covenant.

But it is not part of Christ's Covenant, and we are not bound by those ceremonial rules of other covenants to which we do not belong.

As for the commandment: Christians follow the moral meaning of the Commandments, and the moral meaning of this one is to set aside a day for God. Traditionally, Christians have chosen to make that day the day Christ rose from the dead: The first day of the week.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week. Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day.

Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ

 

[Brother Lionel]

Guys, I understand your logic. But Jesus is not our Sabbath. If He were so, the bible would tell us. Jesus is our Savior who is Lord of the Sabbath. And even if you believe that, how does that justify the transference from the seventh day to the first when the bible says nothing of the sort?? And I also understand that the early Christians met daily. But the bible also says that they kept the sabbath. And again, the fact that they met daily does not constitute a change in one the Ten Commandments. Heck, they met daily to pray and to break bread together. That simply means that they fellowshiped and ate together not that the ten commandments would be altered.

And Tina, you claim that you keep everyday holy but you completely ignore the truth of the matter in that your church's "main day" of rest and worship is Sunday. Am I right or wrong?

 

[TheCatholic]

Guys, I understand your logic. But Jesus is not our Sabbath. If He were so, the bible would tell us. Jesus is our Savior who is Lord of the Sabbath. And even if you believe that, how does that justify the transference from the seventh day to the first when the bible says nothing of the sort?? And I also understand that the early Christians met daily. But the bible also says that they kept the sabbath. And again, the fact that they met daily does not constitute a change in one the Ten Commandments. Heck, they met daily to pray and to break bread together. That simply means that they fellowshiped and ate together not that the ten commandments would be altered.

And Tina, you claim that you keep everyday holy but you completely ignore the truth of the matter in that your church's "main day" of rest and worship is Sunday. Am I right or wrong?

There is no transference, because we Christians we never under the Mosaic Covenant in the first place.

We are not bound by the rules of previous covenants of which we were never a part

 

[Brother Lionel]

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week. Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day.

Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ

Show me in the bible where the resurrection is mentioned in the eighth day. Other than circumcision, there is absolutely nothing you can find about that claim.

And you also mixed the ceremonial laws in with God's moral law which is not biblical my friend. Show me even one of the Ten Commandments that deal with the ceremonial laws. The Sabbath does not because it was established before the Sinai experience, before the ceremonial law was given. And its not a "Jewish tradition" because it was instituted before the Jews were even a people. And the resurrection excuse is not valid because the resurrection dealt with Jesus' triumph over sin, but the Sabbath was established before sin was here. God also says that the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant and a sign for His followers to observe forever (that includes today).

 

[Brother Lionel]

There is no transference, because we Christians we never under the Mosaic Covenant in the first place.

We are not bound by the rules of previous covenants of which we were never a part

Does that include the Ten Commandments my friend? And by the way, the Law of God is a vital part of the New Covenant:

Hbr 8:10 - For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

So, according to the bible, the Law of God is still intact because instead of them being written on stone, they will be written on our hearts. The Law of God does not change my friend. The scripture says "finding fault with them" not the with the law, with them.

 

[TheCatholic]

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week. Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day.

Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ

Show me in the bible where the resurrection is mentioned in the eighth day. Other than circumcision, there is absolutely nothing you can find about that claim.

You are kidding, right?

Jesus rose on the first day of the week, in fullfillment of the scriptures.

 

[TheCatholic]

There is no transference, because we Christians we never under the Mosaic Covenant in the first place.

We are not bound by the rules of previous covenants of which we were never a part

Does that include the Ten Commandments my friend?

What it includes is the manner in which those commandments are obeyed.

The Jews followed the letter of the law with their Mosaic rituals.

Christians follow the moral fullfillment of the commandments because Jesus fullfilled the law.

Yes, we obey the Commandments, but in a way that is consistant with Christ, not using OT rituals.

 

[Brother Lionel]

What it includes is the manner in which those commandments are obeyed.

The Jews followed the letter of the law with their Mosaic rituals.

Christians follow the moral fullfillment of the commandments because Jesus fullfilled the law.

Yes, we obey the Commandments, but in a way that is consistant with Christ, not using OT rituals.

So, according to what God said at Sinai, are not we to obey that with Jesus' teachings applied? You say that you obey the commandments according to what is consistant with Christ. Well, in order to "be consistant" with Christ, shouldnt we obey the principles that God set at Sinai? Espescially when the NT gives no direction to do otherwise. Jesus perfected the law by adding different perspectives of the law, not by changing the law.

 

[TheCatholic]

What it includes is the manner in which those commandments are obeyed.

The Jews followed the letter of the law with their Mosaic rituals.

Christians follow the moral fullfillment of the commandments because Jesus fullfilled the law.

Yes, we obey the Commandments, but in a way that is consistant with Christ, not using OT rituals.

So, according to what God said at Sinai, are not we to obey that with Jesus' teachings applied? You say that you obey the commandments according to what is consistant with Christ. Well, in order to "be consistant" with Christ, shouldnt we obey the principles that God set at Sinai? Espescially when the NT gives no direction to do otherwise. Jesus perfected the law by adding different perspectives of the law, not by changing the law.

But the actual Ten Commandments does not specifiy ritual Saturday worship. That was added in later.

Scriptures such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished.

 

[Brother Lionel]

But the actual Ten Commandments does not specifiy ritual Saturday worship. That was added in later.

Scriptures such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The issue is not what we do the sabbath, but that the sabbath, according to you, have changed. There is nothing in the bible that mentions that.

Acts 20:7 - And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
This simply says that they came together to eat, and that Paul would leave the next day.


1 Corinthians 16:2 - Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
This says nothing about one of the ten commandments being changed. Paul only informs them to lay aside their gifts on the first day of the week as opposed to doing so on the preparation day - the day before the Sabbath.



Colossians 2:16-17 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Paul here explains to the people of Colossea that the ceremonial laws are basically null and void because those laws were a shadow of the real deal which is Christ. Also, which of the ten commandments deal with food, drink, festival, or a new moon? None of them so clearly Paul is referring to the ceremonial sabbaths which were the festivals.


Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. This is probably the most misinterpreted scripture used to justify Sunday worship. Where and how does this scripture show that The Lord's Day was and is Sunday? The answer is that it doesnt, because Jesus rose on Sunday, people assume that John was referring to Sunday. But the bible is clear that the Lord's Day is the sabbath. For instance, Isa 58:13 says that "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My Holy Day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking words."

So again, the NT gives us no command to transfer the sabbath from the seventh day to the first. So, why do we do it!?

 

[Elijah674]

You do not want an answer to that do you? If so, ask Christ who said that [IF] ye Love Me, keep my commandments.

 

[TheCatholic]

You do not want an answer to that do you? If so, ask Christ who said that [IF] ye Love Me, keep my commandments.

I suggest you post the verses that follow his statement. You will see that among the commandments he mentions, keeping the Sabbath is not one of them.

Besides, his two great commandments are to love God and neighbor. If you do those, you keep the commandments.

We don't need the Mosaic rituals for that

 

[Elijah674]

You do not want an answer to that do you? If so, ask Christ who said that [IF] ye Love Me, keep my commandments.

I suggest you post the verses that follow his statement. You will see that among the commandments he mentions, keeping the Sabbath is not one of them.

Besides, his two great commandments are to love God and neighbor. If you do those, you keep the commandments.

********
You what?? Take a peek at 2 Cor. 4:2 young'in! If you KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS you do those. And who said anything about the 7th Day Sabbath being an Mosaic ritual??? You best go read Rev. 22:18-19 Warning!
I can see that we are all set up for real Titus 3:9-11 garbage stuff if one hangs up around here. Take care with your old Gen. 4:6 theology.

--Elijah
********
We don't need the Mosaic rituals for that

 

[Brother Lionel]

You do not want an answer to that do you? If so, ask Christ who said that [IF] ye Love Me, keep my commandments.

I suggest you post the verses that follow his statement. You will see that among the commandments he mentions, keeping the Sabbath is not one of them.

Besides, his two great commandments are to love God and neighbor. If you do those, you keep the commandments.

We don't need the Mosaic rituals for that

But Catholic -
Those two commadments were first quoted in the Old Testament so that wasnt anything new and that certainly doesnt support an alteration of God's divine law.

OT says: Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Jesus says: Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

OT says: Lev 19:18 ...thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Jesus says: Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So how does that constitute a change is rest and holiness when the OT says the same thing???

 

[Tina]

.

Guys, I understand your logic. But Jesus is not our Sabbath. If He were so, the bible would tell us. Jesus is our Savior who is Lord of the Sabbath. And even if you believe that, how does that justify the transference from the seventh day to the first when the bible says nothing of the sort ??

Hebrews 4 is the definitive passage regarding Jesus as our Sabbath rest. The writer to the Hebrews exhorts his readers to “enter in†to the Sabbath rest provided by Christ. After three chapters of telling them that Jesus is superior to the angels and that He is our Apostle and High Priest, he pleads with them to not harden their hearts against Him, as their fathers hardened their hearts against Jehovah in the wilderness. Because of their unbelief, God denied that generation access to the holy land, saying, “They shall not enter into My rest†(Hebrews 3:11). In the same way, the writer to the Hebrews begs themâ€â€and usâ€â€not to make the same mistake by rejecting God’s Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ. “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience†(Hebrews 4:9-11).

There is no other Sabbath rest besides Jesus. He alone satisfies the requirements of the Law, and He alone provides the sacrifice that atones for sin. He is God’s plan for us to cease from the labor of our own works. We dare not reject this one-and-only Way of salvation (John 14:6). God’s reaction to those who choose to reject His plan is seen in Numbers 15. A man was found gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, in spite of God’s plain commandment to cease from all labor on the Sabbath. This transgression was a known and willful sin, done with unblushing boldness in broad daylight, in open defiance of the divine authority. “And Jehovah said to Moses, ‘The man shall surely be put to death’†(v. 35). So it will be to all who reject God’s provision for our Sabbath rest in Christ. “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?†(Hebrews 2:3).

And I also understand that the early Christians met daily. But the bible also says that they kept the sabbath. And again, the fact that they met daily does not constitute a change in one the Ten Commandments. Heck, they met daily to pray and to break bread together. That simply means that they fellowshiped and ate together not that the ten commandments would be altered.

We are not saying don't keep the Sabbath ... we are only saying you have NO right to judge and condemn those who don't !

And Tina, you claim that you keep everyday holy but you completely ignore the truth of the matter in that your church's "main day" of rest and worship is Sunday. Am I right or wrong?

Wrong ! ..... My church which has a strong congregation of 4500+ holds services on BOTH Saturdays and Sundays as the building cannot accommodate all 4500 at one time. When I said keep everyday holy, I meant I pray and read the Bible everyday and so do all my Christian friends.


.