Why the Church Gathering Has Changed

[Dorothy Mae]

No defense. Just observation.

It was a defense pure as you have no possibility to observe me in worship. None whatsoever. It was a common way to answer a sticky question or point, ad hominem.

I’m not offended, btw, I laughed. But it would be better to admit you have not observed me and that it was a defense.

Since you admitted I made a valid point, why not address that instead of the ad hominem? What was valid about it?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I wish I were young enough to research the reasons why the church moved from an every-member ministry to the prominence of one person (male) to lead the church. Are you aware of any publications/research that can shed some light on this?

Hello, Oz.

If you haven't read it, you might be interested in Pagan Christianity, by Viola and Barna. They covered a whole list of practices that were adopted (or re-adopted) by the church in place of New Testament Christianity, including the formal practices of an "order of worship," the preeminence of a presiding pastor, the practice of giving a "sermon," etc.

I've done some work on this in my own studies, and what you find out if you search through the writings of the early fathers is that by around the year A.D. 250 there was a noticeable shift away from the churches giving themselves to Prayer. Once the church moved away from prayer, several things followed, none of them good. The gifts of the Spirit, i.e. the truly supernatural ones, started to wane and then disappear. At the same time, a type of religious formalism of necessity increasingly took hold.

The real shame is that the entire "body of Christ" analogy centered on the supernatural gifts, and that all members of the body had a place of importance in operating in the ministry, and the things of the Spirit. But without prayer the Presence of God dwindles, and few if any operate in genuine supernatural gifts, let alone all of them as body collective.

That's where we find ourselves today, and it has largely been the state of the church for better than 1700 years now since formalism took over in its place. There have been various movements - particularly in the early 1900s - when true Spirit-filled, Spirit-led services became more prevalent again, but unfortunately they have been short-lived. I believe the time when they will finally be returned to the true church is ahead of us, and will be born out of necessity given the darkness of the times.

 

[Hidden In Him]

by around the year A.D. 250 there was a noticeable shift away from the churches giving themselves to Prayer. Once the church moved away from prayer, several things followed, none of them good. The gifts of the Spirit, i.e. the truly supernatural ones, started to wane and then disappear. At the same time, a type of religious formalism of necessity increasingly took hold.

You can already see it taking shape in the quote provided by Mungo in A.D. 155. There is no mention of the gifts. Though they very likely played a part in the prayer segment of the service, the fact that they are not mentioned by name is indicative of the direction the church was already going in. What is mentioned is a single individual giving a teaching, and as you stated, without the participation of the congregation in the presentation of the word, this is not in keeping with Paul's teaching, and is in fact already a departure away from true New Testament Christianity into a mild form of religious formalism that was already starting to take its place.

Justin Martyr wrote around 155AD
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. (The First Apology 67)

 

[andy pandy]

andy,

What are you and I doing to teach the biblical way of gathering, in our own churches?

I have little opportunity to do that as I'm not in the leadership team. It's a frustrating experience.

Oz

I understand exactly where you are coming from. I have lived in Australia for 40 years and have had the odd occasion when it has been allowed and on one occasion I was asked to teach the fellowship how to exercise their priesthood. Over a period of three years we had everyone participating. In one church, a very laid back Anglican priest held a traditional Anglican service in the morning and in the evening he sat with the congregation and left it up to them to make things happen.

The main problem with ministry in Australia is the fact that it is a rejected nation. The Aborigines were rejected by the whites and the whites were rejected by their own country where they came from. This has shown up in the church in that a lot of ministers go into ministry because they have a spirit of rejection so they go into ministry to counteract this and everything has to revolve around them so they won't allow others to fulfil their calling.

What I have found is that nothing is gained by banging your head against a brick wall. If the pastor does want it then it isn't going to happen. The best avenue is in a home setting or starting up something yourself with that intention. I am quite sure there are people out there who do want this so allow God to make it happen for you.

Our fellowship back in the UK started with three people meeting in a home and it grew into a nationwide ministry.

 

[andy pandy]

OK, So just throw the OT in the bin. Nothing to learn from it.

If you want to do that go right ahead

 

[andy pandy]

Yikes. Fancy dress, pageantry, incantations, and rituals do not remotely resemble the assemblies and gatherings of the early Christians.

Definitely Yikes! 10 times over. I have said numerous times after a 2 years study of the New Testament Church which included the story behind the story and reading 60 books I can tell you now that what people are trying to brush of as the real thing is total rubbish. The NTC bore no resemblance to what goes on in most churches today, One has only to look at the first reference to NT life in Acts 2 which had four components, fellowship, prayer, teaching and a communal meal in a room in a house to know that all the rituals of today bore no resemblance to NT life.

All people are doing is projection of their idea of things onto NT Life to justify what they do and pretend that it is the same. At the same time they are showing total ignorance of the New Testament Church Life. They have not put in the hard work of in depth study to find out what really happened.

So if you want to believe the rubbish put out about the pseudo New Testaement church Life be my guest but yours truly is not going to be sucked in by claims that are false.

And I apologise to those that are offended that I call it rubbish.





acts 2

 

[andy pandy]

And in Acts 2:42
"And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."
So the Mass (Catholic/Orthodox and I think Anglican/Episcopalian) follows this pattern
The prayers (all through the Mass)
The apostle’s teaching (scripture readings & homily)
Breaking of bread (the Eucharist)
Fellowship (Gk koinonia = communion)

Talk about making the scripture say what you want it to say.

 

[andy pandy]

I'm high church ,in worship we sing together .we are dedicated to have the worship team lead worship but not entertain

So what?

 

[andy pandy]

And if Paul is your template for the gathering do you agree with Paul's stricture in 1 Cor 14:34-35?
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." :yes

It is shameful for a catholic priest to say what the scripture does not say

 

[andy pandy]

And I showed you that your claim is false.

Pleased to know that Ben Yissichar's claim is true.,

 

[andy pandy]

What we see in the Mass is very biblical as I showed.

There is no mass in the bible.

 

[andy pandy]

Really? Were you there to see these early gatherings?

Rather an infantile comment

 

[andy pandy]

Irrelevant to the topic and a diversionary insult.

Not irrelevant to the topic and not a diversionary insult. What is relevant is that this post is not under catholic authority

 

[eddif]

The thread took a 90 day break.

Where / when / why / who / etc did the concept of (people gathering together) / Church originate ?

Now I have something in mind, but it may not be exactly entirely correct .

Here is a question:
Where / how / etc did the righteous men from nations under heaven appear on the day of Pentecost in Acts.? This seems to be strange that Jerusalem worship was in shambles ( except for 120 disciples). But suddenly righteous men appear?
Appear from foreign nations?

We need a regathering today. How.
What are the concepts that help this happen.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Mungo]

Talk about making the scripture say what you want it to say.

If you want to do that go right ahead

Talk about making the scripture say what you want it to say.

It is shameful for a catholic priest to say what the scripture does not say

Pleased to know that Ben Yissichar's claim is true.,

There is no mass in the bible.

Rather an infantile comment

Not irrelevant to the topic and not a diversionary insult. What is relevant is that this post is not under catholic authority

I see you have no interest in rational discussion.

 

[gordon777]

There is no difference whatsoever in Catholic, or Protestant, all are divided churches, all have supported wars, killing, everything that is bad is connected with the preachers, who support war as long as their side wins, and with the congregations, they encourage to go and fight in wars.

Even army chaplains, gives away the game of everybody joined to a church in this entire world.


The church does not have Jesus Christ as its chief corner stone for nothing, with the Apostles and prophets. It is because that is the original way to follow, and there is no other, and everybody who came after them, did not continue ion from their way( to harmlessly lay their lives down till the death) they all took part in wickedness, until this day. ( looking at the Russian Eastern Orthodox church)



Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;



The true church was hidden away,, it was holy and harmless, without blame, see it or don't ( and I can show it so much more against anyone who decides to try to oppose it, as it is a LIVING CHURCH.)




1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.


2 Corinthians 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

 

[eddif]

It really is Justin's comments are out of line with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV).

Oz

The Church is a gathering for good now. A new decleration
…….

There is no difference whatsoever in Catholic, or Protestant, all are divided churches, all have supported wars, killing, everything that is bad is connected with the preachers, who support war as long as their side wins, and with the congregations, they encourage to go and fight in wars.

Even army chaplains, gives away the game of everybody joined to a church in this entire world.


The church does not have Jesus Christ as its chief corner stone for nothing, with the Apostles and prophets. It is because that is the original way to follow, and there is no other, and everybody who came after them, did not continue ion from their way( to harmlessly lay their lives down till the death) they all took part in wickedness, until this day. ( looking at the Russian Eastern Orthodox church)



Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;



The true church was hidden away,, it was holy and harmless, without blame, see it or don't ( and I can show it so much more against anyone who decides to try to oppose it, as it is a LIVING CHURCH.)




1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.


2 Corinthians 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

gordon777
Could you explain 1 Peter 3:4 for us? The link was generated by I thought one click, but OzSpen: fits too.

1 Peter 3:4 kjv
4.But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[gordon777]

To dwell in the secret lace of the Most High, is to abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

God sent the Son to sit upon the throne in Zion.

The covenant was given by the Son, ( His covenant by His blood) so we sit upon that throne with Him in Zion for ever.

For the Lord has chosen Zion, desired it for His habitation. That is His rest for ever, here He dwells, for He desired it. 9 Jesus glorified entered into His glorious rest and glory)





Psalm 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

Psalm 132:11 The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?





The High and Holy One although lofty, humbled Himself to come to earth, ( our King of kings, meek lowly riding upon an ass)

Also Jesus Christ dwells with those who are of a contrite and of a humble spirit, to revive our spirit and our heart.





Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.



Therefore we judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, to make manifest the counsels of the heart ( as He dwells with those of the heart of the contrite) then everyone will have praise of God ( for that counsel of the heart)

Thus are the secrets of the heart made manifest, when it is reported that God is in us of a truth. How is it ? Let all be done unto edifying. ( explaining everything for us)

That is the hidden man of the heart, it is not corruptible as God revived the heart of the contrite ones, the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, ( in the sight of God of great price as God desired to dwell here for ever.) as God came to revive the spirit of the humble.





1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

 

[eddif]

Covid has taught us why things change. The inner information in cells was written by God. Body function is defined by that inner
DNA code.
But
A viral reverse transcriptase message can be introduced into a cell to change a (it is written). A new error is installed. The cell by the creation of God tends to remove error.

The Church is a new covenant transformation. Looking at the errors after the sin of Adam and Eve will not give us a true picture of the Church.

OzSpen gives us the New Man description of church function. A messenger of Satan has planted lies that have warped the church.

I think visually I suppose. When I see a virus enter a cell and cause problems:
Bam
There is the error entry way of disaster.

All things work together for good for Christians. A perfect description of evil by looking at viral disease.

God can take the little book and show his solution, as He has already done before.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[gordon777]

We are told not to fear what comes on the earth. Revelation 2:10. ( not be concerned or consider it at all) nor to see the things of this world that are temporal, and all who don to look for Jesus in heaven, wont see Him.




Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.