Growth Why?

[Rollo Tamasi]

If the Lord is so great and sinners are saved throu free grace as Christ said he come to turn sinners to repent and all faithfull followers are offered more than the world could ever give, and its all free, then why is everyone so serious and depressed?, even the apostles. I mean just Paul seemed so depressed and stressed. Why when everyone knows the kingdom of God and future is good?

I thought everyone including the most faithful would be happy and stoked thanks to Christ, but people seem to be and have been depressed and anxious and serious.

I suffer so i dont want to be hypocrite as if im so happy or anything.

What is everything all about.

Where is the joy?

I am not depressed over my Christianity.
I am full of joy due to my relationship with Jesus.
But there are responses made by people on this forum that would depress anyone.

 

[Deborah13]

I am not convinced at all that the rest of the disciples would say something against the Holy Spirit though.

I don't think they did. I think they knew the same things that Agabus said. Agabus did not say that Paul wasn't suppose to go. So they did not want him to go, they didn't want him to be in that situation. What they didn't know was what God had put on Paul's heart to do.
And so we see we need to be very careful about how we judge what another person says they must for the Lord. We may judge that they are going to do as just plume crazy, but we don't know what the Lord has put on their hearts and is His will for them.
I'm sure some people thought David Wilkerson was crazy to go preach the Gospel to the gangs in NYC, on their turf. And it's very likely that some of them asked him not to go.

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't think they did. I think they knew the same things that Agabus said. Agabus did not say that Paul wasn't suppose to go. So they did not want him to go, they didn't want him to be in that situation. What they didn't know was what God had put on Paul's heart to do.
And so we see we need to be very careful about how we judge what another person says they must for the Lord. We may judge that they are going to do as just plume crazy, but we don't know what the Lord has put on their hearts and is His will for them.
I'm sure some people thought David Wilkerson was crazy to go preach the Gospel to the gangs in NYC, on their turf. And it's very likely that some of them asked him not to go.

Luke was there, and some other disciples all saying the same...... through the Spirit, Don't Go Paul.

Paul never said the Holy Spirit told him to go, He only tells us what the Holy Spirit warned him about.

I have a girl right now, who married some guy, I told her not to marry. Well, she agreed, but suddenly she tells me the Holy Spirit said Marry him. A couple years later now, she is confiding in my wife, wanting to kick him out.

She left him once, Her father and me by the Holy Spirit told her don't let him back in, just serve God. This guy starts stalking her at work. She ignores me and her dad, claims God wants mercy on him, now back to square one.

Is she hearing God over me? I don't think so, not for a moment. Was her dad wrong? Nope.

Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
(Pro 15:22)

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
(Pro 11:14)

Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

If Paul did the right thing, then these scriptures are wrong. It was no armatures that told him not to go, it's not people who would disobey or have someone disobey the Holy Spirit.

These scriptures are not wrong, Paul was not suppose to go.

 

[Choir Loft]

If the Lord is so great and sinners are saved throu free grace as Christ said he come to turn sinners to repent and all faithfull followers are offered more than the world could ever give, and its all free, then why is everyone so serious and depressed?, even the apostles. I mean just Paul seemed so depressed and stressed. Why when everyone knows the kingdom of God and future is good?

I thought everyone including the most faithful would be happy and stoked thanks to Christ, but people seem to be and have been depressed and anxious and serious.

I suffer so i dont want to be hypocrite as if im so happy or anything.

What is everything all about.

Where is the joy?

The problem is your definition and expectation of JOY. A Christians' JOY doesn't put a JOKER'S permanent grin on his or her face - ever. If you want Halloween foolishness, then visit a costume shop. That's not what JOY is about, at least not the Christian version.

If you want a party atmosphere, then Christianity is not the game for you. Try your local tavern if you want frivolous distraction.

Life goes on, parties notwithstanding and life is mostly work and trouble and distress if not for one's self then also for those around us we care about. To ignore suffering is to be inhuman. To bear witness to it and try to help is entirely a man's duty to his fellows. But that isn't JOY either.

JOY as described in the New Testament is better defined as conviction and certainty that Christ will be there to help those who are called by His name. It is a quiet gentle courage that come what may, Christ will see us through the suffering at hand. JOY isn't about having a stupid grin, it's about having a quiet heart rooted in the love of God.

JOY is knowing we are not alone in the suffering life throws at us. It is knowing that Jesus is with us all the way. When the sun comes up the next morning the party animals have nothing to show for it. Their music and laughter is all but forgotten - little more than a vague memory. When the sun comes up on a new day of real life - Christ is there for those who have asked Him into their lives.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[KevinK]

Being happy on earth is Satan's bag. Achieving eternal bliss in God's Heavenly Kingdom is the Christian plan. While still here (on earth) we must struggle and endure hardship and pain to earn our place in Paradise.

 

[Mike]

Being happy on earth is Satan's bag. Achieving eternal bliss in God's Heavenly Kingdom is the Christian plan. While still here (on earth) we must struggle and endure hardship and pain to earn our place in Paradise.

I can see where you're coming from, but it sounds like you're taking it a bit far. Our God doesn't want to dwell in misery.

Philippians 4:11-13 "11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether living in plenty or in want."

 

[KevinK]

I can see where you're coming from, but it sounds like you're taking it a bit far. Our God doesn't want to dwell in misery.

Philippians 4:11-13 "11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether living in plenty or in want."

Agreed. The extremeness of my viewpoint is admittedly under the strong influence of my personal medical situation. Since a passenger in a bad car accident in 1976, and a Traumatic Brain Injury going head-first through a windshield, I have been in constant, severe pain (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, and Migraine Headaches. As if that's not enough, I have suffered from severe excema since birth), with no end in sight outside of death, and I am addicted to insane levels of opiate pain medications. So, you got my number.

 

[Choir Loft]

Being happy on earth is Satan's bag. Achieving eternal bliss in God's Heavenly Kingdom is the Christian plan. While still here (on earth) we must struggle and endure hardship and pain to earn our place in Paradise.

The post is in error on two major points. First that happiness is the exclusive domain of satan and second that one can earn a place in heaven.

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."
- Eph 2:9

Long story short and important point first is that it is impossible for anyone to earn points for entrance into the presence of God. Such a privileged situation is the decision of the Almighty only. Grace for salvation is given by faith alone, which is also given. It is granted through humble petition of the throne of heaven, not by boasting or deeds or bribery.

The Bible does not justify God's provision for pain and suffering. There is no adequate explanation at all. Read the book of Job. Most sermons refer to Job's patience. The man had none and he whined and complained all the time yet without attributing sin to God. Some people remember that Job was blessed with double stuff at the end of the book, but that isn't the point either. The point of the book of Job is that his suffering and by extension our own - is none of our business. Christ promises that he will be with us in and through the suffering. His grace is sufficient to support us in it. (2 Cor 12:9)

Are you suffering? Have you prayed to God and asked why? You didn't get an answer and you never will, BUT you WILL get a promise that He will be with you in it.

As for happiness, that is granted by He who is Lord of all things. Ecc. 3:4 says that there is a time for laughing and dancing as well as weeping. God is God of all things at the time of His approval.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[KevinK]

I didin't mean to say that happiness on earth is exclusively Satan's thing, though I should have expounded on that point more and can see how someone could make that conclusion. Certainly God can and does create happiness on earth as well. However, it is an often-missed point that friendship with the world is enmity with the aims of the Father.

Next, I understand the falsehood of works-based salvation. I was careful to say that enduring hardship earns our place in Heaven, not our admittance. The blood of the Son gets us in; our personal efforts determine where we'll be in Heaven and under what conditions.

Yes, I am suffering, and these are the answers I believe I've received from God.

 

[Mike]

KevinK please forgive my callus response to your post that I quoted. I had no idea of the challenging life that you've faced. Ideally, we'd all find peace in all circumstances, but we're human, and I have no idea what you've had to endure. I believe Paul would say the same. My heart goes out to you, and I've lifted you up to the Lord in prayer.

Be blessed.

 

[KevinK]

KevinK please forgive my callus response to your post that I quoted. I had no idea of the challenging life that you've faced. Ideally, we'd all find peace in all circumstances, but we're human, and I have no idea what you've had to endure. I believe Paul would say the same. My heart goes out to you, and I've lifted you up to the Lord in prayer.

Be blessed.

I didn't take it as callous. Just calm, logical discussion, and that's fine. Thank you for lifting in prayer, that kind of thing means a lot to me.

 

[Eugene]

Paul who ignored the Holy Spirit and ended up in the Roman Prison, that was Paul's fault there

Dear Brother Mike, I can scarcely believe this.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he (Paul) must suffer for my name's (Jesus’) sake.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 26:1 Then Agrippa (The King) said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself.

Paul’s own testimony.
2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2 Cor 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2 Cor 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2 Cor 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2 Cor 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2 Cor 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2 Cor 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2 Cor 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Paul’s admonition to us.
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Why?
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Following Jesus’ lead is not weakness, but the work God is doing in us. Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

In Zec 4:6 we read: Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Is such the thing that could give Paul these words? 2 Cor 12:9 And he (Jesus) said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Want to have God’s best?
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (abide, endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

 

[Choir Loft]

I didn't take it as callous. Just calm, logical discussion, and that's fine. Thank you for lifting in prayer, that kind of thing means a lot to me.

Asking why is often an exercise in futility. During my military service 1968-1974 I suffered a permanent injury. I asked the VA to help with it, but they've refused five times. The way they 'fix' vets is to lose their medical records from the system. No records means no valid claims.

A co-worker returned from Afghanistan two years ago with the same story. He has a service related medical condition and the VA 'lost' his records too.

There are some occasions when God will reveal to the believer what's going on. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. C.S. Lewis wondered about that in his book SCREWTAPE LETTERS.

Bottom line here is that we have a much greater chance of getting help from God than from the government. That's true in my experience at least.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Brother Mike]

Dear Brother Mike, I can scarcely believe this.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he (Paul) must suffer for my name's (Jesus’) sake.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 26:1 Then Agrippa (The King) said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself.

Paul’s own testimony.
2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2 Cor 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2 Cor 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2 Cor 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2 Cor 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2 Cor 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2 Cor 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2 Cor 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Paul’s admonition to us.
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Why?
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Following Jesus’ lead is not weakness, but the work God is doing in us. Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

In Zec 4:6 we read: Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Is such the thing that could give Paul these words? 2 Cor 12:9 And he (Jesus) said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Want to have God’s best?
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (abide, endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome. So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season. And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
(Act 19:21-23)

You don't have to believe anything Eugene, if I say something, I can "Normally" back it. It was Paul who purposed in the Spirit, Paul did that and said it was the Spirit of God to himself. Same type of thing that goes on today in believers lives who want to do their own thing, so they hear what they want.

And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
(Act 21:4)

Through the reset of the console of the Disciples though and established on more than one witness of the Holy Spirit told Paul not to go to Jerusalem. You don't ignore those God has placed in your life to do your own thing. So, the Holy Spirit tells us it was Paul who Purposed himself in the spirit to go, but Through the Holy Spirit He tells us that He tried to warn Paul not to go through all the disciples who also Heard the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eugene]

After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome. So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season. And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
(Act 19:21-23)

You don't have to believe anything Eugene, if I say something, I can "Normally" back it. It was Paul who purposed in the Spirit, Paul did that and said it was the Spirit of God to himself. Same type of thing that goes on today in believers lives who want to do their own thing, so they hear what they want.

And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
(Act 21:4)

Through the rest of the console of the Disciples though and established on more than one witness of the Holy Spirit told Paul not to go to Jerusalem. You don't ignore those God has placed in your life to do your own thing. So, the Holy Spirit tells us it was Paul who Purposed himself in the spirit to go, but Through the Holy Spirit He tells us that He tried to warn Paul not to go through all the disciples who also Heard the Holy Spirit.

Since we're to follow Paul as he followed Jesus (1 Cor 11:1) maybe he had an inside track with the Holy Spirit the others didn't. I can remember the discourse between Paul and Peter, also a man familiar with the Holy Spirit (Gal 2:11).
Next I submit that God had given Paul personal revelation (Gal 1:11-12) none other ever had (Col 1:26 ), and that was hard to be understood (2 Pet 3:16). Paul's answer to those that would deter him in what God had for him to do?
Act 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. Dear brother, do you really believe we are our own, and not the express work of God that gave all for us? If there be any mission, He is there to supply the need, if there are certain things in our lives needing held up to receive His glory, He will lift us. If Paul's imprisonment was not necessary to witness to the king I believe God would have transported him straight to the prison for what ever other purpose He had for him such as He did with Phillip in Act 8:39.

 

[Brother Mike]

Since we're to follow Paul as he followed Jesus (1 Cor 11:1) maybe he had an inside track with the Holy Spirit the others didn't. I can remember the discourse between Paul and Peter, also a man familiar with the Holy Spirit (Gal 2:11).
Next I submit that God had given Paul personal revelation (Gal 1:11-12) none other ever had (Col 1:26 ), and that was hard to be understood (2 Pet 3:16). Paul's answer to those that would deter him in what God had for him to do?
Act 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. Dear brother, do you really believe we are our own, and not the express work of God that gave all for us? If there be any mission, He is there to supply the need, if there are certain things in our lives needing held up to receive His glory, He will lift us. If Paul's imprisonment was not necessary to witness to the king I believe God would have transported him straight to the prison for what ever other purpose He had for him such as He did with Phillip in Act 8:39.

There can not be two Holy Spirits saying two different things here. Paul was ready to die because of his love for the Jews and His countryman, so Paul had made up his mind that if He died, then He died, despite getting to Rome. God is not leading us to be locked up and tormented, He leads us away from tribulation.

Isa_59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

So, if Luke, Peter and the rest tell you not to go, and we are told everything is established on two or three witlessness, and It's the Holy Spirit that says Don't Go, then you don't go.

 

[Tony Hyman]

Everyday has its ups and downs.I got really bad news the other day.So I felt all sulky and down.What pepped me up was a Sermon the following Sunday based on James 1:2-4.Just these few verses were like a steroid getting me on a roll again "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds.3. because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.4. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

 

[stovebolts]

If the Lord is so great and sinners are saved throu free grace as Christ said he come to turn sinners to repent and all faithfull followers are offered more than the world could ever give, and its all free, then why is everyone so serious and depressed?, even the apostles. I mean just Paul seemed so depressed and stressed. Why when everyone knows the kingdom of God and future is good?

I thought everyone including the most faithful would be happy and stoked thanks to Christ, but people seem to be and have been depressed and anxious and serious.

I suffer so i dont want to be hypocrite as if im so happy or anything.

What is everything all about.

Where is the joy?

Joy... where is the joy. Great question.
As one who has dealt with suffering and depression, I can only speak of a few things. Joy isn't exterior, it's interior and it has a lot to do with faith. Some people make faith out to be such an easy thing to hold onto, but when the God we know doesn't act in accordance with the way we understand him, both personally and scripturally, our faith can be shaken.
When those times come, we may find ourselves in a state of futileness. That's not a bad thing because sometimes we have to let go of our faith so that same faith can be made new and our eyes opened to a whole new relationship with God we never knew existed.

James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Wanting nothing. Why do we want things? Is it not to satisfy our inner desires? Is this to say that we don't seek relationship with God? Absolutely not. But when we rail against God, or scriptures it's a battle we loose and I'm reminded of the words of Jesus to Paul, "Why do you kick against the goads"? (Acts 9:5) because we are only hurting ourselves and it's only a matter of time before we realize it.

Kick hard enough, and you'll find yourself exhausted and empty. And that's where God can do some of his best work because that's when God can comfort and that's where we can find our rest... wanting nothing because we have that which fully satisfies.

James 4:9-10 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

We are all so blinded by God's ways. We think we know what God wants, but do we really from the broader narrative? I believe we are each on a journey and God is sanctifying each and every one of us, molding us to his image day after day.

So hold on tight because joy is so much more than you can now perceive...
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Kidron]

If the Lord is so great and sinners are saved throu free grace as Christ said he come to turn sinners to repent and all faithfull followers are offered more than the world could ever give, and its all free, then why is everyone so serious and depressed?, even the apostles. I mean just Paul seemed so depressed and stressed. Why when everyone knows the kingdom of God and future is good?
I thought everyone including the most faithful would be happy and stoked thanks to Christ, but people seem to be and have been depressed and anxious and serious.
I suffer so i dont want to be hypocrite as if im so happy or anything.
What is everything all about.
Where is the joy?

Life is a battle, is a struggle, saved or lost, however, the Saved are not in the battle alone.
Also, *Joy*..... as defined as a Christian's Happiness, is not the same as "feeling happy".
Feeling happy, is all about finding the next thing that you want to feel that makes you feel different then you do right now.
Maybe thats food, or sex, or buying a Lexus.........all that is about the physical realm experience and is temporary..... Whereas a Christian's happiness (Joy) comes from the fact that they are now a part of the Eternal Love of God and so this allows their transition period on earth called LIFE, to exist with an inner smile, even when all hell is breaking loose in their life.
A Christian understands that all problems they are facing or are going to face are just the next issue that God is going to eventually solve on their behalf because He loves them.
A Christian understands that God takes care of them not because they are worthy, but because HE IS Good....(God IS Love).
A Christian understands that no matter the Odds, as long as its you and God, then you are the majority.