Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[gr8grace]

Hi Edward, I think what is in view here is the "position" and the "condition" of the believer. Every time we have doubts that the Lord is Going to toss us to the Curb, we are living and thinking in our "condition". Not in our "position" in Christ.

Peter walked on water thinking in His "position in Christ" as soon as He started thinking about his "condition" he started to sink.

The Child who is holding His fathers hand is thinking and acting in His "position". Let go of that hand and we are acting in our "condition", but if we let go of that Hand are we still a Child to that Father? Our position never changes. Once a Child of God ALWAYS a Child of God. Even an earthly father would forever save that Child who let go of His hand. How much more would our Heavenly Father do for us?

Speaking of position, I came across this today and would like to hear your take on it.

2 Peter 3:17-18

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen./ (NIV)

Steadfastness is what I believe fits the original better than "position". Peter is talking to Spiritually mature believers in these verses. They already know Pauls doctrines, which are hard to understand in the first place. So Peter is still talking about their "condition", which is a spiritually mature person who has learned to be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Christian faith.

So I think the "fall" Is ones own maturity level In Christ.(drifting away from Grace and into reversionism)

 

[gr8grace]

This may be a matter of semantics which I think happens often on the threads. I don't see it is a duty to resist temptation. I see it as smart. I see it as recognizing the God tells us how to live for our protection and good not just because He wants us to obey Him for the sake of obeying. I see Him as my Father who loves me and wants only the best for me and others in my life. Also, when I comply ( and this is the number one reason) it brings glory to Him.

Point well taken and agreed, it is smart. But does this mean than one can say the sinners prayer, be baptised and go back his life of sin, and on judgment day they're in, but may just be the least in heaven?

I Peter 4:17-18

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”/ (NIV)

Hard for the righteous to be saved?

Peter has Just talked about the sufferings a Christian has to go through in this Life. (especially if you are spiritually Mature person) that is what is in view with "hard" (receive it with happiness)

Verse 17 is a rebound verse for the believer~~{to confess your sins is a form of self-judgement
- "if we judge ourselves we shall not be judged" }

 

[gr8grace]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Yes. This is the kind of stuff that scares me and makes me wonder if OSAS is a fact or not. There is no more repentance at some point, and having reread the whole chapter just now, I notice how many time Peter uses the word hope. It's almost as if saying the sinners prayer once is not enough, but one must make an effort to be as Jesus was and work towards total love in Christ and how one behaves. This is the whole of the faith without works is dead thing I think. If you have not good works and resist temptation, then one merely pays lip service to God.

Heb 6:4-6~~ it is impossible to be restored to repentance again. Its a one shot deal, once done always done.

Go to verse 1 The author says " do not lay again a foundation of repentance" What was the Jews "foundation of repentance?" Animal sacrifice.

These were jews that had "fallen away" into the law again, and were preforming animal sacrifice. They were laying a foundation of repentance again.

They were already saved and were holding the Blood of Christ in contempt.

The author was telling them, " guys it is already done, every time you go back into the law(fall away) and lay that foundation you trample over the work that Christ ALREADY did for you. You cant do it again."

I have had to study this quite a bit also!

One thing I found interesting is, I always thought that Paul most likely wrote Hebrews. I don't think as confident about that now. in Hebrews 2:3~~how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,

Paul had direct revelation from the Lord and Heard from Him. Maybe Barnabas? He heard a lot from Paul. Just a side note, thought that was interesting. Acts 15:35

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Edward, I think what is in view here is the "position" and the "condition" of the believer. Every time we have doubts that the Lord is Going to toss us to the Curb, we are living and thinking in our "condition". Not in our "position" in Christ.

Peter walked on water thinking in His "position in Christ" as soon as He started thinking about his "condition" he started to sink.

The Child who is holding His fathers hand is thinking and acting in His "position". Let go of that hand and we are acting in our "condition", but if we let go of that Hand are we still a Child to that Father? Our position never changes. Once a Child of God ALWAYS a Child of God. Even an earthly father would forever save that Child who let go of His hand. How much more would our Heavenly Father do for us?

Speaking of position, I came across this today and would like to hear your take on it.

2 Peter 3:17-18

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen./ (NIV)

Steadfastness is what I believe fits the original better than "position". Peter is talking to Spiritually mature believers in these verses. They already know Pauls doctrines, which are hard to understand in the first place. So Peter is still talking about their "condition", which is a spiritually mature person who has learned to be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Christian faith.

So I think the "fall" Is ones own maturity level In Christ.(drifting away from Grace and into reversionism)

I think this interpretation is accurate. I'd also like to add that if a believer becomes lawless how secure will they actually feel. I know we don't go by feelings about loving others, etc. but if you are a believer the Holy Spirit is going to be talking to you about your lawless behaviors. It will bother you and you cannot feel secure. Even if you know you are saved it will be on your conscious and you will not want to face God. Best cure FACE GOD.

 

[Deborah13]

Hard for the righteous to be saved?

You quoted from two different versions but both say the same thing.
It does not say that it is hard for the righteous to be saved or stay saved.

KJV - 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
NIV - 18 And also,
“If the righteous are barely saved,
what will happen to godless sinners?”

Truthfully, we are barely saved (don't let the old English hang you up).
We are ONLY saved because God chose to save us otherwise we would all be headed for the lake of fire.
It's kind of funny wording. We know that we are saved because of God's grace and faith but we can be secure because He is faithful. But if it was up to us....

I think it's more important to read these verses in context. Peter is encouraging them not warning them. They are made of stronger stuff than the ones who are without Christ. Remember, their very physical lives were in danger all the time, they were persecuted from all sides.

 

[Danus]

This is interesting. Here you share your understanding of OSAS in terms of what salvation truly is, where you say the the OSAS understanding is that only the born again are truly saved.

The OSAS mentality is that there are people who claim to be Christians, sitting in the pews, practicing Christianity, etc., but are not "saved", not "born agains". Only the REAL Christians, the "born agains", have been given the promises. The "truly saved" persons cannot be lost. The other Christians, well, they never were saved.

For the most part this is true to what OSAS says, and added to that, there are people who claim Christ but are not really saved. We don't know who they really are, but they are not "born again", and never grow roots in their faith, however the born again are saved and are saved to the end as you agree with in your next quote where you agree with Romans 8:30. However, OSAS is not about the un-saved, thus the term "SAVED". It stands for Once Saved, (Meaning born again) Always Saved, (Meaning saved to the end).

Romans 8:30, (NIV) 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Again, we don't know which are predestined. After the fact, we will. That will be the path for everyone. The predestined are all called. And eventually glorified. God's elect, however, are not everyone in the Church. Christ states this when He speaks of the wheat and the weeds parable. Also, the parable of the net. Also, the parable of the sower.

I think you made an excellent point backing up Romans 8:30 with the parables of Christ. Good one. Very true and I so agree. It's rare we get to see such spiritual growth in understanding on this forum, and I hope you see it in your own words, but then that's part of why I felt the need to point it out with your own words.

1. You agree that all the called are the predestined as such.

The predestined are all called.

2. You agree that God's elect ARE guaranteed glorified

And eventually glorified.

3. You agree that they (the predestined) are God's elect.

The predestined are all called. And eventually glorified. God's elect,

4. You agree that not everyone is predestined to salvation. and some of these could be attending a church, perhaps visiting, or hanging out for a while, who knows.

The predestined are all called. And eventually glorified. God's elect, however, are not everyone in the Church.

5. You agree that the the bible backs this up with solid scripture, words from Christ Jesus himself;

Christ states this when He speaks of the wheat and the weeds parable. Also, the parable of the net. Also, the parable of the sower.

6. So, with this,in your own words, you clearly have an understanding that the SAVED, Once saved by God, (ie...Chosen elect) ARE SAVED ALWAYS.

I'm glad to see you agree.
Take care and Blessings to you. francisdesales. I have enjoyed working with this out with you. If you have any more questions regarding reformed theology, I hope you will consider me a resource, and a brother with you in Christ Jesus our lord AND savior

 

[gr8grace]

Hi Edward, I think what is in view here is the "position" and the "condition" of the believer. Every time we have doubts that the Lord is Going to toss us to the Curb, we are living and thinking in our "condition". Not in our "position" in Christ.

Peter walked on water thinking in His "position in Christ" as soon as He started thinking about his "condition" he started to sink.

The Child who is holding His fathers hand is thinking and acting in His "position". Let go of that hand and we are acting in our "condition", but if we let go of that Hand are we still a Child to that Father? Our position never changes. Once a Child of God ALWAYS a Child of God. Even an earthly father would forever save that Child who let go of His hand. How much more would our Heavenly Father do for us?

Speaking of position, I came across this today and would like to hear your take on it.

2 Peter 3:17-18

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen./ (NIV)

Steadfastness is what I believe fits the original better than "position". Peter is talking to Spiritually mature believers in these verses. They already know Pauls doctrines, which are hard to understand in the first place. So Peter is still talking about their "condition", which is a spiritually mature person who has learned to be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Christian faith.

So I think the "fall" Is ones own maturity level In Christ.(drifting away from Grace and into reversionism)

I think this interpretation is accurate. I'd also like to add that if a believer becomes lawless how secure will they actually feel. I know we don't go by feelings about loving others, etc. but if you are a believer the Holy Spirit is going to be talking to you about your lawless behaviors. It will bother you and you cannot feel secure. Even if you know you are saved it will be on your conscious and you will not want to face God. Best cure FACE GOD.

I agree Deb, and good thoughts. Living in Grace and security, will lead the believer to less sin and less lawlessness. Appreciating and living in Grace and security will lead to the Christian life that God has planned for each and every believer.

 

[francisdesales]

OK, fair enough. I have no problems with that. By your definition, I am "born again".



The question is not about whether you can lose your initial salvation!!! The question is whether that initial salvation perseveres until the end. NEVER have I said that a person becomes "unborn" and that something that once happened "never happened". That is the OSAS comment. "you were never saved to begin with". You can't be "unborn". But that is what we hear when Johnny Smith is born again - by your definition - lives a life in Christ for 5 years, and then commits adultery and falls away from service to Christ, gradually falling further into sin. Two Peter 2 would describe this man very well. An OSAS will then proclaim "you were never saved to begin with".

In other words, "POOF - you are unborn"

Regards

Johnny Smith was never saved to begin with. POOF you are wrong.

:biglol

Not according to Jesus. People begin in faith, having received the Word of God - and then fall away...

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Here is also something Jesus said "All that the Father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." John 6:37 POOF! you are wrong again.lol Here is a riddle just for you francis....how many times must a person be born in order to be a person? How many times must a person be born-again to be a born-again child of YHWH?

What makes you think you are one of those that the Father has given Christ???

Maybe you will fall away in five years and you were not one of the ones given to Christ?

Persevere. Stop being presumptuous.

 

[francisdesales]

So, with this,in your own words, you clearly have an understanding that the SAVED, Once saved by God, (ie...Chosen elect) ARE SAVED ALWAYS. [/SIZE][/FONT]

I would prefer that you use the correct terminology: The elect are OSAS, if you will. Yes. The "saved", no, not all of them. Saved does not equal predestined to eternal glory.

The problem is that WE don't know who the elect are. They look just like the people around us, maybe even us. That is the entire point of my discussion.

We just don't know whether we are one who was called by Christ to be predestined to eternal glory. Sure, we have received salvation, freed from sin, made a child of God. But that doesn't make us one of the elect.

Anyone who is baptized is "saved", freed from sin. Does that status remain? For many, no, according to the parables I mention. Many become part of the Body of Christ - but are cut off later. They fall away in times of temptation or become overly involved with the anxieties of the world. The "wheat" - unidentifiable from the tares until time for harvest, will eventually prevail.

THIS is why Christ says to persevere. Those who do are showing that they are the elect.

I'm glad to see you agree.

Let me know if you still do after you read the above explanation.

Take care and Blessings to you.

francisdesales. I have enjoyed working with this out with you. If you have any more questions regarding reformed theology, I hope you will consider me a resource, and a brother with you in Christ Jesus our lord AND savior

You have been very kind and I appreciate this discussion.

Brother in Christ

 

[francisdesales]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Yes. This is the kind of stuff that scares me and makes me wonder if OSAS is a fact or not. There is no more repentance at some point, and having reread the whole chapter just now, I notice how many time Peter uses the word hope. It's almost as if saying the sinners prayer once is not enough, but one must make an effort to be as Jesus was and work towards total love in Christ and how one behaves. This is the whole of the faith without works is dead thing I think. If you have not good works and resist temptation, then one merely pays lip service to God.

Something is the "unforgiveable sin", or as Hebrews 6 speaks about, "impossible to repent" because the person in that situation will NOT repent.

If a person does fall away, it is VERY difficult to come back. What leads to that falling away in the first place, and the return to a former life.

When a person refuses to repent, it becomes unforgiveable because forgiveness is conditional. One must ask for it.

Regards

 

[Grappler]

:biglol

Not according to Jesus. People begin in faith, having received the Word of God - and then fall away...

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Here is also something Jesus said "All that the Father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." John 6:37 POOF! you are wrong again.lol Here is a riddle just for you francis....how many times must a person be born in order to be a person? How many times must a person be born-again to be a born-again child of YHWH?

What makes you think you are one of those that the Father has given Christ???

Maybe you will fall away in five years and you were not one of the ones given to Christ?

Persevere. Stop being presumptuous.

Once again i ask you a question and you refuse to answer it...instead you ask me a question and then presume to know me and question my relationship with Jesus. Some people might construe that as arrogance and stupidity....but i will give you the benefit of the doubt.lol Okay fracis i will play along. The answer to the first question is the same answer that i gave an agnostic one time who questioned my faith in Jesus. I told him i can't explain to him how i know Jesus...but he is as real to me as the floor that i am standing on. I talk to him on a regular basis...I don't expect you to understand francis...from your posts you don't seem to know what a relationship with Jesus is....i hope that changes one day. Jesus said " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." He is my Good Shephard...i am one of his sheep. BAAA BAAA.

 

[Guest]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite?s=t

 

[Guest]

Revelation 3:4-5

4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels./

I notice that no one took a stab at my question about the will not blot out their name from the book of life part of this, and the possible implication that it could happen? Someone give me their take on this please?

I am a little busy now but promise to answer back those posts to me in the morning when I have time. I'm not ignoring you all.

No, your name will not be erased from the book of life, rather Jesus is teaching the righteous to walk in purity. Also notice Revelation 3:1 I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Notice it says being alive but are dead. This is a warning to the righteous as in, do not squander your gift of salvation. Wasting life is a sin.

 

[chessman]

The problem is that WE don't know who the elect are.

I've had a bit of an epiphany here. Not about the Scripture and what it teaches but about how this OSAS, elect/non-elect issue seems to get so disagreeable at times between two people that both love the Lord. Odd that that would occur, but it’s so common.
But I think a big, big reason for our internal disagreements is for these two simple reasons:
1. People, in general, are not that willing to relinquishing their ability to tell who’s saved, elect, born-again, etc. (all synonyms in this context) over to Christ Himself. It’s NOT the OSAS (reformed) view that any man call tell who’s saved and not saved, but rather God knows and He protects the one’s that He does know. That’s a point that is often overlooked, I feel. It’s not hidden that OSAS’ers cannot tell who’s saved and who’s not, but people on both sides of the issue just forget it sometimes. It’s Christ and Christ alone that separates the goats from the sheep, not any man. The seeds, when sown, all do look alike until they either begin to grow, then die off or never grow at all, or flourish, etc. But sure they all look alike to the mere mortals initially. Anyway, if that’s someone’s only issue with OSAS, then it’s actually a non-issue. Us OSAS’s, we don’t know who’s saved and who’s not any more than the next guy. A Judas could be eating and fellowship and even keeping our money, right beside us and we’d never know it. But it sure is plain from ALL Scriptures, that God know. How someone cannot see this in all of Scripture is frankly, again, illogical or just plain lazy. But my point is, yes, our prideful attitude about not being able to “know who’s elect†while here on earth does blind us to the bigger picture. God knows and protects His own.
2.

They look just like the people around us, maybe even us.

Of course we don’t know what “saved†people look like. Nobody in the OSAS camp should be saying otherwise. Judas sat right there with the other eleven and none of them BUT Jesus knew for 100% certainty. If someone say’s they know with 100% certainty they themselves are saved, I wouldn’t say they are lying, but rather just not technically correct via Scripture. Only God knows, according to Scripture. But I do think it’s very, very helpful to our confindence to see the Scriptures that support OSAS and re-evaluate the teaching that have taught you otherwise your whole life. Because when you do re-evaluate the few that are there, they don’t hold much water. Just like 2 Peter 2 doesn’t hold any water against OSAS. I never said the false prophets in 2 Peter 2 looked like anything other than a good ole Christian brother in the first place. I just said they were, in a heavenly fact, false and not elect.
3. I lied, I have three points. “Christianity†in a colloquial sense does NOT equal “born-again†or elect or whatever. I have actually had people tell me they are Christian because their parents are Christian. They are confuse about what they are if you bounce that statement up against Scripture. You cannot also be a Christian just by being in a church. Just look at 2 Peter 2!
To illustrate my point:

We just don't know whether we are one who was called by Christ to be predestined to eternal glory

True!
But that being true, doesn’t mean your next statement is true.

Sure, we have received salvation, freed from sin, made a child of God. But that doesn't make us one of the elect.

Let God be God, and Scripture be His truth, and it all makes perfect sense. It’ll also grow your faith and your confidence along the way. I know. Been there, done that. But it will never grow you to the point of being God and picking His sheep out of a line-up.

 

[gr8grace]

Revelation 3:4-5

4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels./

I notice that no one took a stab at my question about the will not blot out their name from the book of life part of this, and the possible implication that it could happen? Someone give me their take on this please?

I am a little busy now but promise to answer back those posts to me in the morning when I have time. I'm not ignoring you all.

1 John 5:4-5~~ an over comer is one who believes.

Rev 3:5 "i will not blot out their name from the book of Life"~~ have you ever heard of the term litotes?

Litotes is a figure of speech and it is being used here in Rev 3:5. (an affirmation expressed in negative terms), we have actually an emphatic declaration that emphasizes the certainty of the promise of salvation.

The figure of litotes means that an affirmative meaning is expressed by denying its opposite. When we say “an artist of no small stature,” we mean he is an outstanding artist. When Paul says that he is not ashamed of the gospel he actually means that he is proud of it. In litotes the negative idea is not central. Rather, the interpreter must focus on the positive idea to which the negative refers. Thus when the Lord says “I will not blot out his name,” He is not implying that there is such a possibility but rather He is saying emphatically that He will keep the believer’s name in the book. So in actuality, Revelation 3:5 not only stresses the eternal security of the believer for every believer’s name is written in the book of life but is a way of promising something special to the overcomer in the kingdom and eternal future.

 

[chessman]

So in actuality, Revelation 3:5 not only stresses the eternal security of the believer for every believer’s name is written in the book of life but is a way of promising something special to the overcomer in the kingdom and eternal future.

exactly, God has no need for Whiteout, correction tape or an eraser. He uses permanent ink pins. It's plain from Genesis to Rev.

 

[francisdesales]

:biglol

Not according to Jesus. People begin in faith, having received the Word of God - and then fall away...

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Here is also something Jesus said "All that the Father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." John 6:37 POOF! you are wrong again.lol Here is a riddle just for you francis....how many times must a person be born in order to be a person? How many times must a person be born-again to be a born-again child of YHWH?

What makes you think you are one of those that the Father has given Christ???

Maybe you will fall away in five years and you were not one of the ones given to Christ?

Persevere. Stop being presumptuous.

Once again i ask you a question and you refuse to answer it...instead you ask me a question and then presume to know me and question my relationship with Jesus. Some people might construe that as arrogance and stupidity....but i will give you the benefit of the doubt.lol Okay fracis i will play along. The answer to the first question is the same answer that i gave an agnostic one time who questioned my faith in Jesus. I told him i can't explain to him how i know Jesus...but he is as real to me as the floor that i am standing on. I talk to him on a regular basis...I don't expect you to understand francis...from your posts you don't seem to know what a relationship with Jesus is....i hope that changes one day. Jesus said " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." He is my Good Shephard...i am one of his sheep. BAAA BAAA.

I hope you are, Grappler, I hope you are...

 

[francisdesales]

I've had a bit of an epiphany here. Not about the Scripture and what it teaches but about how this OSAS, elect/non-elect issue seems to get so disagreeable at times between two people that both love the Lord. Odd that that would occur, but it’s so common.
But I think a big, big reason for our internal disagreements is for these two simple reasons:
1. People, in general, are not that willing to relinquishing their ability to tell who’s saved, elect, born-again, etc. (all synonyms in this context) over to Christ Himself. It’s NOT the OSAS (reformed) view that any man call tell who’s saved and not saved, but rather God knows and He protects the one’s that He does know. That’s a point that is often overlooked, I feel. It’s not hidden that OSAS’ers cannot tell who’s saved and who’s not, but people on both sides of the issue just forget it sometimes. It’s Christ and Christ alone that separates the goats from the sheep, not any man. The seeds, when sown, all do look alike until they either begin to grow, then die off or never grow at all, or flourish, etc. But sure they all look alike to the mere mortals initially. Anyway, if that’s someone’s only issue with OSAS, then it’s actually a non-issue. Us OSAS’s, we don’t know who’s saved and who’s not any more than the next guy. A Judas could be eating and fellowship and even keeping our money, right beside us and we’d never know it. But it sure is plain from ALL Scriptures, that God know. How someone cannot see this in all of Scripture is frankly, again, illogical or just plain lazy. But my point is, yes, our prideful attitude about not being able to “know who’s elect” while here on earth does blind us to the bigger picture. God knows and protects His own.
2. Of course we don’t know what “saved” people look like. Nobody in the OSAS camp should be saying otherwise. Judas sat right there with the other eleven and none of them BUT Jesus knew for 100% certainty. If someone say’s they know with 100% certainty they themselves are saved, I wouldn’t say they are lying, but rather just not technically correct via Scripture. Only God knows, according to Scripture. But I do think it’s very, very helpful to our confindence to see the Scriptures that support OSAS and re-evaluate the teaching that have taught you otherwise your whole life. Because when you do re-evaluate the few that are there, they don’t hold much water. Just like 2 Peter 2 doesn’t hold any water against OSAS. I never said the false prophets in 2 Peter 2 looked like anything other than a good ole Christian brother in the first place. I just said they were, in a heavenly fact, false and not elect.
3. I lied, I have three points. “Christianity” in a colloquial sense does NOT equal “born-again” or elect or whatever. I have actually had people tell me they are Christian because their parents are Christian. They are confuse about what they are if you bounce that statement up against Scripture. You cannot also be a Christian just by being in a church. Just look at 2 Peter 2!
To illustrate my point:
True!
But that being true, doesn’t mean your next statement is true.

Sure, we have received salvation, freed from sin, made a child of God. But that doesn't make us one of the elect.

Let God be God, and Scripture be His truth, and it all makes perfect sense. It’ll also grow your faith and your confidence along the way. I know. Been there, done that. But it will never grow you to the point of being God and picking His sheep out of a line-up.

OK, we are making progress. God be praised...

Persevere and remain in Christ, my friend.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Revelation 3:4-5

4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels./

I notice that no one took a stab at my question about the will not blot out their name from the book of life part of this, and the possible implication that it could happen? Someone give me their take on this please?

I am a little busy now but promise to answer back those posts to me in the morning when I have time. I'm not ignoring you all.

No, your name will not be erased from the book of life, rather Jesus is teaching the righteous to walk in purity. Also notice Revelation 3:1 I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Notice it says being alive but are dead. This is a warning to the righteous as in, do not squander your gift of salvation. Wasting life is a sin.

Very good. This reminds me of the parable of the talents. Note that the guy with one talent did not do anything evil, did he?

Do not squander what we have been given, that is good advice, urk.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Revelation 3:4-5

4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels./

I notice that no one took a stab at my question about the will not blot out their name from the book of life part of this, and the possible implication that it could happen? Someone give me their take on this please?

I am a little busy now but promise to answer back those posts to me in the morning when I have time. I'm not ignoring you all.

I wish I could respond to everyone, Edward. But sometimes I am busy.

This is a good Scripture to meditate on. I think this verse is saying that those who remain in Christ, who walk with Him, will be victorious. We see lots of these promises in Scripture. Seems easy on paper, doesn't it? It is certainly a struggle, like Paul said, spiritual warfare. A battle v satan, who desires our souls. But in Christ, we will be victorious, dressed in our wedding cloak, our good deeds in Christ.

Remain in Christ, my friend. You will know as you obey His commandment - to love others as He loved us.

Regards