Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[John Zain]

To the original post...
Way to put a guy on the spot, John! Hmm. Introspection time.

Luke 11:9-10
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find;
knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds;
and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened./ (KJV)

No one can do it. It must be given unto him. We ask for it, we humble ourselves, we seek Him.
We put aside the flesh and live for the spirit and stay at Lords feet.

Yes, of course ... you know I'm talking about born-agains who do NOT do this.
I'm warning all born-agains that they MUST do this.

 

[John Zain]

It just amazes me how How our flesh and Satan deceives us into thinking that the Lord wants to KILL us all if we don't measure up, when He knows that none of us can do it!

You'll probably continue to miss the point until you die.

You'll probably never understand what "measure up" really means.

You'll probably never understand that God's grace can be rejected.

You'll probably continue to ignore the many dozens of warning verses to believers.

Etc.

To redeem thouself, why not explain to us ...
Why all of the many warning passages?
Hint: some of them talk about throwing away eternal life.

The floor is yours ...

 

[francisdesales]

No not all born-again "christains" will be with Christ in heaven. For those who where justified freely by His grace, and received the free-gift of righteouness, and turn back to legalism and the written code have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ. They have rejected the "way of righteouness" and are going about to establish their own righteousness by the law. 2 Pet 2:21-22
It would been better for these people to have never been born than to have heard the Holy Commandment THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM.
For these are those who will come to Him and say "lord lord" did we not do these things in your name? And He will say depart from me, you cursed children.
FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.

Not a chance Mitspa. If one is a believer at anytime in His/her life they will go to heaven. What you are saying here Is exactly what you fight for. The Law has power and is alive if it can take away salvation by GRACE. There is NOTHING in this world that can take away the promise of God to save a person that has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person was Justified By grace,The Law cannot unsave a person. If it can the Law is still alive and powerful.

Good gravy. Mitspa is correct. It is not the Law that "unsaves" someone. It is rejecting Christ and the Spirit of God.

Being "unsaved" = is not living in Christ. Eschatological justification is based upon what we do IN Christ. If you choose to follow the flesh - which is obviously possible for even us - you will NOT enter the Kingdom. All the promises are based upon REMAINING In Christ. There is nothing more for us to do but to remain faithful and allow the Spirit to do His work within us. But if you resist the Spirit and walk in the flesh, your faith declaration is worthless. You will be in a state WORSE than before being "saved" 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The spirit of fear from the evil spiritual forces of wickedness in high places (demons) is being whispered in the ear of the self righteous to make the Believers who "miss the mark" sin-conscious instead of being Christ-conscious.

Men, have you ever caught yourself thinking, “I don’t want to look at any woman in case I lust”? You are being sin-conscious when you think like that. And sooner or later, you will lust in your heart. You may not sin outwardly, but you will sin inwardly.

Have you also tried confessing every sin? I have! “I’m sorry, Lord. Forgive me for this thought in Jesus’ name.” Then, another thought would come and I would quickly say, “Forgive me, Lord, for that thought in Jesus’ name.” Then, if I happen to doubt His forgiveness, I would confess my unbelief and ask for forgiveness: “Forgive me, Lord, for doubting You.” Before I knew it, I was oppressed in my mind and so sin-conscious instead of Christ-conscious!

My brothers and sisters, when you fall into sin, God wants you to be Christ-conscious. This means that when you have missed it, God wants you to be conscious that in Christ, you have forgiveness of sins through His blood. God wants you to be conscious that Christ was wounded and bruised for your sins, and that the chastisement for your peace was upon Him. (Isaiah 53:5)

When you are Christ-conscious, you will have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1) You will know that you are the righteousness of God in Christ because He who knew no sin was made sin for you. (2 Corinthians 5:21) He took your sin and now you have His righteousness.

So when you fall, don’t be conscious of your failure and feel bad or condemned. Instead, be conscious of who you are in Christ, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue your walk with God!

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Ephesians 1:7

Wow, that was GOOD. It sure is nice to see another believer that has a grasp on grace.

WHEN you are Christ conscious...

You have ARE righteous (since being "in Christ" is more than just a metaphor) as long as you WALK in righteousness. That is your evidence that Christ abides in you. According to 1 John.

Does this mean I have to jump through hoops and earn anything? No. But if you follow the flesh, you have proof that you are again enslaved to sin...

You cannot claim to be "in Christ" while living in sin at the same time.

regards

 

[VirginShallConceive]

It seems like members of certain, more modern denominations feel the need to always include the term "born again". The one thing I do like about the term is that it lets me know who I'm dealing with.

Good idea!
IMO, the Church has always had plenty of clergy and laity
who were intellectual Christians as opposed to born-again Christians.

I totally agree. There have been plenty of intellectual Christians from the days of Jesus all the way through modern times. Certain people only started feeling the need to call themselves "born again Christians" somewhere in the 1960's.

After all, when you have "Christ" as your root word, who needs to be passed the salt, pepper, and born-again shakers? Overkill, if you ask me.

IMO, historically, many have NOT had the indwelling presence of the precious Holy Spirit.

Yeah, I agree that many people have not. I say, if they have not, they shouldn't be referred to as Christians.

Perhaps, many people have allowed themselves to be deceived into believing in OSAS by passages such as John 3:16.

Well, they are still saved, as long as they still believe. That's a guarantee. What's open for discussion are the ones who aren't mentioned in John 3:16. The ones who are mentioned are a shoo in. To say otherwise is heretical and despicable.

 

[Guest]

I totally agree. There have been plenty of intellectual Christians from the days of Jesus all the way through modern times. Certain people only started feeling the need to call themselves "born again Christians" somewhere in the 1960's.

After all, when you have "Christ" as your root word, who needs to be passed the salt, pepper, and born-again shakers? Overkill, if you ask me.

The term born again is part of scripture. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Well, they are still saved, as long as they still believe. That's a guarantee.

It's impossible for a born again christian to stop believing. You will know them by their fruits.

 

[Grappler]

The tribulation saints who came to Christ doing "The Great Tribulation" are saved. These saints were unbelievers before the "Rapture". They refuse to worship and take the mark of the beast during these dark times. They became believers! Revelation 7:9-17

"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Did it ever occur to you that there is no "Rapture" and that you might, if you don't die first, have to go through these dark times yourself?

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

"I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." Jesus John 17:15

 

[Grappler]

The tribulation saints who came to Christ doing "The Great Tribulation" are saved. These saints were unbelievers before the "Rapture". They refuse to worship and take the mark of the beast during these dark times. They became believers! Revelation 7:9-17

"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Did it ever occur to you that there is no "Rapture" and that you might, if you don't die first, have to go through these dark times yourself?

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

Spot on. The Greek says to "TAKE one out" Not give you "power" to endure. He takes us out completely! We are not destined for wrath. Not the wrath of Jesus nor the wrath of Satan.

Wrong. John 17:15 says "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." Ofcourse we are not destined for the wrath of God...that is called the lake of fire...but you are in some kind of fantasy world if you think Christians don't suffer the wrath of Satan.lol Lets start with the Inquisition. The tortures that some of those children of God went through would make your skin crawl and sick to your stomach...and you say that Christians don't suffer the wrath of Satan...

 

[VirginShallConceive]

The term born again is part of scripture. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That is an excellent Bible passage, Urk. I used it in post #22.

Great minds think alike!

Well, they are still saved, as long as they still believe. That's a guarantee.

It's impossible for a born again christian to stop believing. You will know them by their fruits.

Good point. If it's impossible for them to stop believing, then they are guaranteed their salvation, according to John 3:16.

 

[Guest]

Anyway, I disagree with that the Christians will suffer the wrath of God or satan. To suffer tribulations is one thing, but to suffer the wrath that is being spoken of would contradict scripture.

Blessings Edward, we agree on so many things. You're right, the devil cannot possess the soul of a christian, due to the fact of the blood of Christ and his seal. Evil can no longer dwell inside of holiness. We can be tempted, but temptation and possession are not the same.

 

[francisdesales]

I totally agree. There have been plenty of intellectual Christians from the days of Jesus all the way through modern times. Certain people only started feeling the need to call themselves "born again Christians" somewhere in the 1960's.

After all, when you have "Christ" as your root word, who needs to be passed the salt, pepper, and born-again shakers? Overkill, if you ask me.

The term born again is part of scripture. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Actually, the proper term is "born from above". The root word means both "above" and "again", but Jesus corrects Nicodemus' "again" with "above"...

It's impossible for a born again christian to stop believing. You will know them by their fruits.

Impossible??? The Jews thought it was impossible for God to allow Jerusalem to fall. What happened to the promised people in 587 BCE? Only the FAITHFUL remnant remained. Who is the faithful remnant today? Who will be trimmed from the olive tree to be tossed aside? Impossible? Doesn't Paul address this very thing in 1 Cor 10:12?

The only thing guaranteed is that the CHURCH as a COMMUNITY will be saved for eternal life. Who is of that Church? The angels will come and separate the weeds from the wheat at the end. Let's remember Paul's discussion on HOPE. Even for himself.

Regards

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I totally agree. There have been plenty of intellectual Christians from the days of Jesus all the way through modern times. Certain people only started feeling the need to call themselves "born again Christians" somewhere in the 1960's.

After all, when you have "Christ" as your root word, who needs to be passed the salt, pepper, and born-again shakers? Overkill, if you ask me.

The term born again is part of scripture. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Actually, the proper term is "born from above". The root word means both "above" and "again", but Jesus corrects Nicodemus' "again" with "above"...

Well, what Jesus said could mean "again" or "above", but even if scholars unanimously concluded that it meant "above", "again" would still be automatically implied. I would have to say that an "again" interpretation is a win/win situation.

 

[Guest]

Actually, the proper term is "born from above". The root word means both "above" and "again", but Jesus corrects Nicodemus' "again" with "above"...

You are correct, born from above meaning born of spirit. What spirit? The Holy Spirit. Where does the Holy Spirit come from....Heaven.

Impossible??? The Jews thought it was impossible for God to allow Jerusalem to fall. What happened to the promised people in 587 BCE? Only the FAITHFUL remnant remained. Who is the faithful remnant today? Who will be trimmed from the olive tree to be tossed aside? Impossible? Doesn't Paul address this very thing in 1 Cor 10:12?

The only thing guaranteed is that the CHURCH as a COMMUNITY will be saved for eternal life. Who is of that Church? The angels will come and separate the weeds from the wheat at the end. Let's remember Paul's discussion on HOPE. Even for himself.

Lemme ask you, what's the difference between an apostate and a born again christian? When you say church do you mean the body of Christ or a building on the side of the road? You will know them by their fruits. Blessings.

 

[Mitspa]

No not all born-again "christains" will be with Christ in heaven. For those who where justified freely by His grace, and received the free-gift of righteouness, and turn back to legalism and the written code have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ. They have rejected the "way of righteouness" and are going about to establish their own righteousness by the law. 2 Pet 2:21-22
It would been better for these people to have never been born than to have heard the Holy Commandment THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM.
For these are those who will come to Him and say "lord lord" did we not do these things in your name? And He will say depart from me, you cursed children.
FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.

Not a chance Mitspa. If one is a believer at anytime in His/her life they will go to heaven. What you are saying here Is exactly what you fight for. The Law has power and is alive if it can take away salvation by GRACE. There is NOTHING in this world that can take away the promise of God to save a person that has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person was Justified By grace,The Law cannot unsave a person. If it can the Law is still alive and powerful.

The law is not taking away salvation, salvation is rejected by those who reject grace. YE HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE, YE ARE CUTOFF FROM CHRIST.

If the Angels who left their first estate, was cast into cast into hell, so will those who reject Gods rightelousness and go about to establish their own.

2 Pet 2:21
Sorry I dont make the rules, and I dont save those who God says will be destroyed.

FOR THE LORD HIMSELF CALL THOSE WHO WOULD COME TO HIM AND BE REJECTED "CURSED"

now those who are under the works of the law are "CURSED" by the law.

Hmmm, I guess that includes Christ?

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

What?? How can Christ reject Himself? For those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own, have in fact rejected Christ and are under the curse of the law.
Are you saying Christ is cursed?

 

[Mitspa]

No not all born-again "christains" will be with Christ in heaven. For those who where justified freely by His grace, and received the free-gift of righteouness, and turn back to legalism and the written code have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ. They have rejected the "way of righteouness" and are going about to establish their own righteousness by the law. 2 Pet 2:21-22
It would been better for these people to have never been born than to have heard the Holy Commandment THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM.
For these are those who will come to Him and say "lord lord" did we not do these things in your name? And He will say depart from me, you cursed children.
FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.

Not a chance Mitspa. If one is a believer at anytime in His/her life they will go to heaven. What you are saying here Is exactly what you fight for. The Law has power and is alive if it can take away salvation by GRACE. There is NOTHING in this world that can take away the promise of God to save a person that has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person was Justified By grace,The Law cannot unsave a person. If it can the Law is still alive and powerful.

Good gravy. Mitspa is correct. It is not the Law that "unsaves" someone. It is rejecting Christ and the Spirit of God.

Being "unsaved" = is not living in Christ. Eschatological justification is based upon what we do IN Christ. If you choose to follow the flesh - which is obviously possible for even us - you will NOT enter the Kingdom. All the promises are based upon REMAINING In Christ. There is nothing more for us to do but to remain faithful and allow the Spirit to do His work within us. But if you resist the Spirit and walk in the flesh, your faith declaration is worthless. You will be in a state WORSE than before being "saved" 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Regards

Yes its not the law, its those who attempt to justifiy themselves by the law. That have fallen from grace.
FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.
AND THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
so those who turn back to the law, have turned from the"way of righteouness" They are those who are worse off than when they were washed by the grace of God, like a dog, to its vomit and a sow to its wallow. They have returned to wallow in their own sins. FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW.

 

[Mitspa]

The spirit of fear from the evil spiritual forces of wickedness in high places (demons) is being whispered in the ear of the self righteous to make the Believers who "miss the mark" sin-conscious instead of being Christ-conscious.

Men, have you ever caught yourself thinking, “I don’t want to look at any woman in case I lust� You are being sin-conscious when you think like that. And sooner or later, you will lust in your heart. You may not sin outwardly, but you will sin inwardly.

Have you also tried confessing every sin? I have! “I’m sorry, Lord. Forgive me for this thought in Jesus’ name.†Then, another thought would come and I would quickly say, “Forgive me, Lord, for that thought in Jesus’ name.†Then, if I happen to doubt His forgiveness, I would confess my unbelief and ask for forgiveness: “Forgive me, Lord, for doubting You.†Before I knew it, I was oppressed in my mind and so sin-conscious instead of Christ-conscious!

My brothers and sisters, when you fall into sin, God wants you to be Christ-conscious. This means that when you have missed it, God wants you to be conscious that in Christ, you have forgiveness of sins through His blood. God wants you to be conscious that Christ was wounded and bruised for your sins, and that the chastisement for your peace was upon Him. (Isaiah 53:5)

When you are Christ-conscious, you will have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1) You will know that you are the righteousness of God in Christ because He who knew no sin was made sin for you. (2 Corinthians 5:21) He took your sin and now you have His righteousness.

So when you fall, don’t be conscious of your failure and feel bad or condemned. Instead, be conscious of who you are in Christ, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue your walk with God!

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Ephesians 1:7

Wow, that was GOOD. It sure is nice to see another believer that has a grasp on grace.

WHEN you are Christ conscious...

You have ARE righteous (since being "in Christ" is more than just a metaphor) as long as you WALK in righteousness. That is your evidence that Christ abides in you. According to 1 John.

Does this mean I have to jump through hoops and earn anything? No. But if you follow the flesh, you have proof that you are again enslaved to sin...

You cannot claim to be "in Christ" while living in sin at the same time.

regards

right you cannot be in God righteousness and going about to establish your own at the same time. For those who are under law are in the flesh and are living in "willing sin" FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.

only those who are justified freely by Gods grace, are walking apart from sin.
FOR SIN WILL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE.

so those who are under the law, are in the flesh and cannot please God. FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.

 

[francisdesales]

I totally agree. There have been plenty of intellectual Christians from the days of Jesus all the way through modern times. Certain people only started feeling the need to call themselves "born again Christians" somewhere in the 1960's.

After all, when you have "Christ" as your root word, who needs to be passed the salt, pepper, and born-again shakers? Overkill, if you ask me.

The term born again is part of scripture. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Actually, the proper term is "born from above". The root word means both "above" and "again", but Jesus corrects Nicodemus' "again" with "above"...

Well, what Jesus said could mean "again" or "above", but even if scholars unanimously concluded that it meant "above", "again" would still be automatically implied. I would have to say that an "again" interpretation is a win/win situation.

It is a misnomer, because we aren't born again spiritually, we never WERE born spiritually the first time to be "born again" spiritually.

The flesh doesn't matter, in this case, so fleshy birth is inconsequential to the context. Being born from above suggests it is God's doing, and that is the important point.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

No not all born-again "christains" will be with Christ in heaven. For those who where justified freely by His grace, and received the free-gift of righteouness, and turn back to legalism and the written code have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ. They have rejected the "way of righteouness" and are going about to establish their own righteousness by the law. 2 Pet 2:21-22
It would been better for these people to have never been born than to have heard the Holy Commandment THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM.
For these are those who will come to Him and say "lord lord" did we not do these things in your name? And He will say depart from me, you cursed children.
FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW ARE UNDER ITS CURSE.

Not a chance Mitspa. If one is a believer at anytime in His/her life they will go to heaven. What you are saying here Is exactly what you fight for. The Law has power and is alive if it can take away salvation by GRACE. There is NOTHING in this world that can take away the promise of God to save a person that has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person was Justified By grace,The Law cannot unsave a person. If it can the Law is still alive and powerful.

Good gravy. Mitspa is correct. It is not the Law that "unsaves" someone. It is rejecting Christ and the Spirit of God.

Being "unsaved" = is not living in Christ. Eschatological justification is based upon what we do IN Christ. If you choose to follow the flesh - which is obviously possible for even us - you will NOT enter the Kingdom. All the promises are based upon REMAINING In Christ. There is nothing more for us to do but to remain faithful and allow the Spirit to do His work within us. But if you resist the Spirit and walk in the flesh, your faith declaration is worthless. You will be in a state WORSE than before being "saved" 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Regards

Yes its not the law, its those who attempt to justifiy themselves by the law. That have fallen from grace.
FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.
AND THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
so those who turn back to the law, have turned from the"way of righteouness" They are those who are worse off than when they were washed by the grace of God, like a dog, to its vomit and a sow to its wallow. They have returned to wallow in their own sins. FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW.

See, Mitspa, we can agree in some places...

 

[francisdesales]

Lemme ask you, what's the difference between an apostate and a born again christian? When you say church do you mean the body of Christ or a building on the side of the road? You will know them by their fruits. Blessings.

An apostate is a fallen away "born-again" Christian.
Church refers to the Body of Christ.
Yes, you will know them by their fruits, so a "born again" priest or pastor found in adultery or pedophilia is in serious trouble, as they are enslaved to sin shown by their fruits. We should pray that they repent. But if they don't, they are in God's hands.

Regards

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Actually, the proper term is "born from above". The root word means both "above" and "again", but Jesus corrects Nicodemus' "again" with "above"...

Well, what Jesus said could mean "again" or "above", but even if scholars unanimously concluded that it meant "above", "again" would still be automatically implied. I would have to say that an "again" interpretation is a win/win situation.

It is a misnomer, because we aren't born again spiritually, we never WERE born spiritually the first time to be "born again" spiritually.

The flesh doesn't matter, in this case, so fleshy birth is inconsequential to the context. Being born from above suggests it is God's doing, and that is the important point.

Regards

Yes, Francis, I can possibly subscribe to that.

I will concede the point that I thought was rock-solid.

Unbelievable!

The funny thing is that after I hit "Submit Reply", I realized that "from above" could exist entirely without the "again" baggage that I initially thought was unavoidable, if one subscribes to the Calvinistic view, and believes that God chooses who is born "from above" and who isn't(I don't subscribe to that, but the somewhat popular belief exists, nevertheless).

However, I never suspected that you, Francis, would come unsuspectedly from left field, and turn my prematurely-cocky world upside down!


Having said that, I am only conceding to being closed-minded, and not allowing for any other dissenting possibilities. I am not conceding that our natural earthly birthday is insignificant enough to not even qualify as one of our births. In other words, I am only conceding that it is still up for debate. :crazy