Women in the Pulpit

[evenifigoalone]

What I find really hard to swallow is when people take these verses and start saying that women shouldn't hold jobs and such. :crazy My family never believed this strictly and doesn't seem to now, but for a bit when I was a kid I remember that or something like it being mentioned sometimes.
That just isn't practical for one thing, and even assuming this means women shouldn't hold positions of authority in the church, IMO the Bible doesn't say anything regarding that. You could probably find scripture that blows that argument out of the water, in fact, though I can't think of any right now.


But the verse about women not even speaking in the church I REALLY don't get. I've never known any church that does that, even if they are against women pastors.
That rule would be especially maddening to follow if it's supposed to apply to a group Bible study where everyone gives their spiritual input.

 

[reba]

Then it's a cultural thing that can change, isn't it reba, not a core element of Christian theology. Whether or not women can have authority over men, and have leadership roles in the church, can change over time and with evolving cultures without effecting Christ's message at all. That message is one of complete and total equality, in all respects. See what happens when we try to make everything Paul says something completely consistent with Christ's message? Paul was an imperfect man living in an imperfect world entirely within a culture of his time. A disciple, yes, but none the less, an imperfect man shaped by his culture.

I don't see God's plan as a cultural thing. And I see the line of authority as God's plan... As far as Paul being imperfect I agree but I do not throw the baby out with the bath...

Do you see the shadow or picture of Christ and His bride in 'our marriages' I do ... I do not believe this is a matter unto salvation....I do believe we have problems when we try and fit things where they don't belongs the ol square peg in the round hole thing...

I have a short list of some thoughts...sorta on topic sorta not

How much better is society in the USA now then before women were make equal by MEN and in my view (only mine ) out of the place God put us.

are the politicians more honest

are our children better behaved

we now kill the unborn for convenience.

Sexual sin is every where

How are our churches doing?

I will not respond to these points here as to not derail the thread...

doing things God's way is much better....

All of this while remembering


<DIR>ro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

</DIR>This woman was no wall flower...

 

[jasoncran]

reba I agree.if a woman wants to be as a man then let them be treated as such. as the ole saying goes be careful what you wish for you might just get it, and you might live to regret that.
why on earth would any women put themselves through what my has to deal with at an even younger age? to wit, a shoulder that is in need of replacement but she is simply too young for the surgery and will be unable to handle the second surgery. a joint replacement last only 15 to twenty years. she has no humerus as most people do the ball is now a point.

hard work that men should do is the primary reason this happened.

 

[Mike S]

reba I agree.if a woman wants to be as a man then let them be treated as such. as the ole saying goes be careful what you wish for you might just get it, and you might live to regret that.
why on earth would any women put themselves through what my has to deal with at an even younger age? to wit, a shoulder that is in need of replacement but she is simply too young for the surgery and will be unable to handle the second surgery. a joint replacement last only 15 to twenty years. she has no humerus as most people do the ball is now a point.

hard work that men should do is the primary reason this happened.

Has this position morphed then from "women can't serve in the pulpit because God says so" to "women may prefer to not do the same work men do?" If so, then I agree with it. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

well gee, one feeds the other. often a pastor just doesn't teach , mark he or she must also work on the church and clean it or keep the building running. my old female pastor mowed the ten acre lot with a riding lawn mower, and also weed eated it. she did this even with a bad knee and also after the knee replacement. she can no longer do it. she was over 60! when I met her and she mowed the yard. the men (not the leaders or elders) often didn't help as either they weren't asked or didn't care.

I do recall that her son said mom, stop let the men do it and she refused.some men were willing to mow the church but really it shouldn't have been her place to mow the yard.YOU none Floridians come to here in 90's to 100s' in august and try that and see how long you last.even with the sun going down its still over 80 degrees in august!

 

[Mike S]

well gee, one feeds the other. often a pastor just doesn't teach , mark he or she must also work on the church and clean it or keep the building running. my old female pastor mowed the ten acre lot with a riding lawn mower, and also weed eated it. she did this even with a bad knee and also after the knee replacement. she can no longer do it. she was over 60! when I met her and she mowed the yard. the men (not the leaders or elders) often didn't help as either they weren't asked or didn't care.

I do recall that her son said mom, stop let the men do it and she refused.some men were willing to mow the church but really it shouldn't have been her place to mow the yard.YOU none Floridians come to here in 90's to 100s' in august and try that and see how long you last.even with the sun going down its still over 80 degrees in august!

I'm glad for strong women of the church, like your old female pastor. I've known many, and I don't think the church could function without them. But, my point isn't to denigrate women of the church. It's to support them, in every capacity in the church, including pastor and leadership roles.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but a the age of 60! she should have NOT been doing that. would you not teach your son to help his mother when she is too old to handle the yard? or the dad and mow and maintain the yard? I have taught Nathan to do that for his mom.

alas in todays society that is to chaveunistic and thus woman should be allowed to work till they die even if they are to stubborn to say I need help as was the case I mentioned. my wife loved when I would work on my parents cars, and not charge them. I didn't have to do that. I didn't have to that certain commandment to honor my parents has no age limits to it. while I haven't done as much as I used to and my brother has done some things for them. I could do some more things. I was irate with my mom when she paid a plumber to a simple gutting of the toilets and replacing a faucet or too when I could do them and not have charged her. she would have just by the parts and I put them in place. I understand when one cant do things or its just not worth the time and effort saved verses the saving with the labor ie. buying tools for a job you might do only once, or its something that you could do if you had the time but really don't.

 

[Claudya]

alas in todays society that is to chaveunistic and thus woman should be allowed to work till they die even if they are to stubborn to say I need help as was the case I mentioned.

Hehe, that's the way I'm gonna die most likely. Because I'm exactly like that. :D
Okay, but my own lack of wisdom aside...
How is mowing a lawn (or any other kind of physical work that may be part of being a pastor) related to women being pastors? Lawn mowing isn't exactly part of the job, that's what many churches have gardeners or janitors for (my church has, because my pastor, male as he is, can't mow a lawn due to his allergic asthma on plant pollen). On the other hand a healthy woman could withstand that kind of work easily, even on a hot summer day, given she drinks a lot and takes breaks (just like men should when working in hot temperatures).
So I'm wondering how the female pastor in your story is related to the topic.
However, you are right, it IS chauvinistic not to let a woman make choices, even though they may look stubborn and unwise to everyone else.

 

[jasoncran]

alas in todays society that is to chaveunistic and thus woman should be allowed to work till they die even if they are to stubborn to say I need help as was the case I mentioned.

Hehe, that's the way I'm gonna die most likely. Because I'm exactly like that. :D
Okay, but my own lack of wisdom aside...
How is mowing a lawn (or any other kind of physical work that may be part of being a pastor) related to women being pastors? Lawn mowing isn't exactly part of the job, that's what many churches have gardeners or janitors for (my church has, because my pastor, male as he is, can't mow a lawn due to his allergic asthma on plant pollen). On the other hand a healthy woman could withstand that kind of work easily, even on a hot summer day, given she drinks a lot and takes breaks (just like men should when working in hot temperatures).
So I'm wondering how the female pastor in your story is related to the topic.
However, you are right, it IS chauvinistic not to let a woman make choices, even though they may look stubborn and unwise to everyone else.

really,. basically my wifes arm will either go numb and be useless to her and it wont be able to work or move and she is only 55. that is what she faces UNTIL a shoulder replacement. either that or the pain pills cause issues she takes for that. for now she can use the limb but it will be frozen sooner or later.

I mentioned it because often men and women simply don't care and it must be done. its part of her job as well its like this.
If I don't mow my grass and it will grow six inches or higher in a two week period. snakes in florida love this as they cool off in that and well have three types of venomous snakes. one of them is most deadly in the us. and the other attacks and doesn't need any reason because just that type of a snake we call them copper heads. that is a lawsuit waiting to happen. and well its ONLY ten acres. I know a coworker who has mowed that in one hour with a zero turn and he is overweight . if you need to take a break in that time YOU are really unhealthy. I work in that weather all day. I moved about 3 miles at a fast pace at least that distance. to read meters. in 90 degree plus. I don't take breaks unless it a urine break. I drink on the go when I get to the truck.

so its chaunvenistic for man to protect his daughter from a boy she thinks loves her and she is too STUPID to know better? like any dad hasn't done that old warning on this forum.you allow you feminism to blind you from common sense. I have learned to also listen to my wife when she says that is dumb. but hey I guess that the opposite of chauvinism as at times I can be stupid too.

I am a high risk for skin cancer. I guess per your logic, I should just ignore her and let the melanoma come to be and pay the price.

 

[jasoncran]

the smaller churches such as the present I attend don't have lawn maintance people. the church has volunteers that mow. some women and some young and old all that go chip in. even the pastor!

 

[turnorburn]

In a man woman relationship who makes or rather who is held accountable when it comes to decision making maybe i should say who does God come looking for in the end? In the garden who did Jesus call out to, Adam! where are you we have some business to take care of. It comes down to responsibility.. When i was growing up it was always go see your father, then dad would turn around and say go see your mother. Why would a woman want that responsibility, power maybe dad sure did wield the power, especially when it came time for the rod of correction..

tob

 

[Maedchen]

But the verse about women not even speaking in the church I REALLY don't get. I've never known any church that does that, even if they are against women pastors.
That rule would be especially maddening to follow if it's supposed to apply to a group Bible study where everyone gives their spiritual input.

Dear questdriven,

one church I know, which practices strict obedience to that rule of Paul, is the Amish Church, especially the Old Order.
Their priority is based on the expectation that Jesus had towards his disciples, namely to be not of this world.
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:16)

Those more strict congregations that derive from the older Mennonites are living the Word of God quite literally.
And the women ask their husbands at home, not in church. There they only listen and sing.

You know, dear sister, sometimes we girls like to be as strong as boys, women like to be given as much responsibility as men. But as reba said, God's ways are always the best, even if we do not understand them, and even if for a time they may cause us pain. But the outcome is always in our best interest. I am convinced of that.

Love, Maedchen

 

[evenifigoalone]

But the verse about women not even speaking in the church I REALLY don't get. I've never known any church that does that, even if they are against women pastors.
That rule would be especially maddening to follow if it's supposed to apply to a group Bible study where everyone gives their spiritual input.

Dear questdriven,

one church I know, which practices strict obedience to that rule of Paul, is the Amish Church, especially the Old Order.
Their priority is based on the expectation that Jesus had towards his disciples, namely to be not of this world.
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:16)

Those more strict congregations that derive from the older Mennonites are living the Word of God quite literally.
And the women ask their husbands at home, not in church. There they only listen and sing.

You know, dear sister, sometimes we girls like to be as strong as boys, women like to be given as much responsibility as men. But as reba said, God's ways are always the best, even if we do not understand them, and even if for a time they may cause us pain. But the outcome is always in our best interest. I am convinced of that.

Love, Maedchen

I actually got to meet some Amish during my vacation when we visited Lancaster. (We even ate at a restaurant run by an Amish woman.) Although I felt like I was intruding at first seeing as its made into some tourist opportunity and I wasn't sure how they felt about that. It seems kinda rude to come and be all, "oh look at these people", y'know? But they said they appreciated the business it brought them and they seemed friendly enough.
Anyways, have to admire their faith and commitment. Even if you don't follow their general practices you can definitely learn from them.

The Bible is full of things I don't understand or will understand later I guess.

 

[Mike S]

But the verse about women not even speaking in the church I REALLY don't get. I've never known any church that does that, even if they are against women pastors.
That rule would be especially maddening to follow if it's supposed to apply to a group Bible study where everyone gives their spiritual input.

Dear questdriven,

one church I know, which practices strict obedience to that rule of Paul, is the Amish Church, especially the Old Order.
Their priority is based on the expectation that Jesus had towards his disciples, namely to be not of this world.
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:16)

Those more strict congregations that derive from the older Mennonites are living the Word of God quite literally.
And the women ask their husbands at home, not in church. There they only listen and sing.

You know, dear sister, sometimes we girls like to be as strong as boys, women like to be given as much responsibility as men. But as reba said, God's ways are always the best, even if we do not understand them, and even if for a time they may cause us pain. But the outcome is always in our best interest. I am convinced of that.

Love, Maedchen

Years ago my wife and I were close friends with a Mennonite family. They were actually nearly indistinguishable from any other Protestant group (as with most denominations, there is among Mennonites a spectrum of very conservative to quite liberal congregations.) What I do remember distinctly is their wonderful acapella singing at the son's wedding in Toronto. He was the one closest to our age, and we'd spent a lot of evenings with him and his wife.

My wife (we've been married 39 years this year) is a Quaker. Many people completely confuse Quakers and Amish and Mennonites. To them, they all seem the same.

 

[TOG]

Those more strict congregations that derive from the older Mennonites are living the Word of God quite literally. And the women ask their husbands at home, not in church. There they only listen and sing.

Do they sing silently?

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=68276]mark[/MENTION] and [MENTION=91320]Claudya[/MENTION] I thought the two of you may be interested in this site and this page. It's an indepth study of the Corinthian and the 1 Timothy scriptures.

Personally, it made sense of the verse about "childbearing" that had never made any sense to me before. It is part of Paul's 3 piece argument that now makes sense as to what he was arguing and why.

This is a quote from the author of that page and site....he has a BS and a ThM in Theology and is born again, personal relationship with the Lord for over 40 yrs.

"Conclusion:

Paul is known as "the Apostle of Liberty." He was converted overnight from a legalistic, persecuting, pharisaic rabbi to a preacher of freedom in Christ, equality within the Body, of universal giftedness of the Spirit, to mutual submission after the model of the "meekness and gentleness of Christ."

His actions showed that his understanding of male and female alike was informed by the radical position we have in Christ. His practice and his words alike encourage ALL to accept the 'yoke' of service to the Master Servant of All...He consistently 'stays after women' to learn and grow and use their gifts for His precious Lord...He instructs his disciples to make sure that they are taught and utilized in the Body...He praises them in his letters for their faithfulness and hard work and 'co-laboring' with him...

This man's vision of women was re-created by the grace of God...would that we see what he saw, and live as consistently...

glenn miller, 1/25/97 "

http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

 

[Mike S]

@mark and @Claudya I thought the two of you may be interested in this site and this page. It's an indepth study of the Corinthian and the 1 Timothy scriptures.

Personally, it made sense of the verse about "childbearing" that had never made any sense to me before. It is part of Paul's 3 piece argument that now makes sense as to what he was arguing and why.

This is a quote from the author of that page and site....he has a BS and a ThM in Theology and is born again, personal relationship with the Lord for over 40 yrs.

"Conclusion:

Paul is known as "the Apostle of Liberty." He was converted overnight from a legalistic, persecuting, pharisaic rabbi to a preacher of freedom in Christ, equality within the Body, of universal giftedness of the Spirit, to mutual submission after the model of the "meekness and gentleness of Christ."

His actions showed that his understanding of male and female alike was informed by the radical position we have in Christ. His practice and his words alike encourage ALL to accept the 'yoke' of service to the Master Servant of All...He consistently 'stays after women' to learn and grow and use their gifts for His precious Lord...He instructs his disciples to make sure that they are taught and utilized in the Body...He praises them in his letters for their faithfulness and hard work and 'co-laboring' with him...

This man's vision of women was re-created by the grace of God...would that we see what he saw, and live as consistently...

glenn miller, 1/25/97 "

http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

Deborah, thank you for the link. This is a very well thought-out and well written analysis. It very much reflects my belief that Christ's message, and Paul's message as well, can only be truly understood by considering the scriptures in their entirety, rather than isolated verses.

 

[jasoncran]

actually I view paul as a saved rabbi, he often operates as a rabbi would and sage.

case in point. he always greets the church with grace and peace. that is from the word shalom as in shalom aleichum.

 

[Lewis]

Tell me something' what do you guy's think of a female judge' that can and does order men around and or punishes men for their infractions ? And also who can send men to their deaths. And also while in court a man has to call her Your Honor. Do you think that there should be no female judges.

 

[reba]

Hey this female judge works under the authority of the guys




What goes on in the world is not how we should be within Body