Work For A Free Gift?

[smaller]

Again, since the bible does not specifically tell us what the thorn in the side was, all one can do is merely speculate.

Or just read what Paul said, "a messenger of Satan," with no speculation whatsoever needed or required.

In Romans chapter 7 Paul is warning the Jews, to whom he was writing, about returning back unto the OT law. That OT law made complete justification impossible and only allowed for flawless law keeping to be completely justified. In Rom 7:13-24 Paul is speaking about himself back when he was Saul and trying to keep that OT law flawlessly and the frustration that caused.

Again, unlikely.

Paul's personal conclusions from Romans 7:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

"Am" carnal, not was.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

"Do," not did.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Not "used to dwell in me"

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

"Do," not did.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

"Is," not was.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Not "used to war." Warring.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

"I am," not was. "the body of death" Paul still had.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

"Serve," not served.

None of these applications point to anything past tense, but present tense, after salvation. There is a mountain of similar present tense evidence for the same matters.

Under the OT law Saul/Paul did have sin living in him for there was no compete justification from sin under that OT law.

There is no justification for sin, period.

Jesus condemned sin in sinful flesh and we all have sin. End of conversation. No amount of "works" is going to change that fact.

Yet in chapter 8 Paul then contrasts living under that Ot law to being a Christian who is "now" in Christ where there is no condemnation Rom 8:1.

If you ever pick up on the point that "sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8) you'd see a two fold state. No, the devil is NEVER forgiven, will NEVER be obedient, will NEVER benefit from a single good work that anyone does, will NEVER be legal and all the baptism and holy ghost whatever will avail that working and workER in anyone, who does TEMPT us all INTERNALLY, thereby placing same internally to do so, exactly NADA from God in Christ's perspective.

Unfortunately most believers just don't care to engage these matters, and prefer to see themselves all presently shiny, even though we are plainly told we are "planted" in corruption, weakness, dishonor and in a natural body that is subject to internal temptation and death. 1 Cor. 15

No sense whistling past the graveyard on these subjects of scriptural reality.

I'd progress to inquiries about "your sin" after salvation and how that sin relates to the devil, but I doubt very much it would result in a beneficial discussion.

Even Peter was rebuked by Paul after salvation for being a hypocrite. Barnabus got wrapped up in as well. Let's just say, It happens and is quite an infection. Gal. 2:11-13. Paul called that particular episode

dissimulation, generally meaning:

"pretense, dissembling, deceit, dishonesty, duplicity, lying, guile, subterfuge, feigning, shamming, faking, bluff, bluffing, posturing, hypocrisy"

Quite a STRONG term.

Paul was abundantly clear, that we are justified by faith, as we can NOT be justified ANY other ways, because we are still in fact SINNERS just like all people ARE.

 

[Seabass]

I don't know what faith means to you. To me it means to believe that Love is Eternal. Therefore the battle is to not give up on believing that. If we're not doing the things that Love requires, then we have stopped believing.

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mark 2:1-5. Faith is "doing" what Christ said. One can claim that he has faith in Christ, yet if he is not doing what Christ said then his lack of works is proof/evidence he dose not have faith in Christ.

 

[Seabass]

You're doing the same thing Seabass. The reason why you don't understand what I am saying is it doesn't fit your theology.

Jesus did not say, 'This is the work of man'. He said, 'This is the work of God'.

Look at it from first principles. The sower sows the good seed, the seed falls on the heart, the heart believes. Who is the sower? The sower is the Son of man. Mt. 13:37 Who is the Son of man? The Son of man is Jesus. Didn't Jesus say he could only do what he saw the Father doing?

John 5:19
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.

Sowing seed is work isn't it? So, who is the true sower? The true sower is the Father. Who is the Father? The Father is the true God.

So how can you say believing is not his work? How can you say it is not the work of God?

Believing is the work of God.

--The reason Jesus did not call believing a "work of man" because it was not the idea of man that one must do the work of believing in order to be saved. God is the source of the work of believing and that is why it is called the "work of God". Therefore God, and not man, has approved>ordained the the work of believing and this work must be done by man in order for man to be saved.
When I am hired for a job then I do the "work of the employer".....I do the work that has been approved>ordained by the employer for me to do. The phrase "work of the employer" does not mean the employer does the work while I do nothing but means the employer is the source who has approved>ordained>appointed the work given to me to do.

--Acts 16:31 the verb 'believe' is imperative mood so if God does the work of believing then why was man commanded to do this work? The imperative implies that man has both the ability to believe and the responsibility to do the work of believing.

--John 5:19 Jesus is speaking about Himself and says nothing to the effect that believing is a work God does and not man. Jesus is simply saying the things He said and did were in accord with the will of God. "The Son can do nothing of Himself' proves no mortal man could have done the miraculous things Christ did yet Christ was able to do all He did for God was with Him.

--The seed is the word of God Lk 8:11 and that seed must be "sown in the heart" of men for men to be saved Matt 13:19 and the sowing is done by the preaching of that word and preaching the word is a work that is commanded to the disciples to in the great commission....to go into all the world and preach the gospel>sow the seed.

 

[Seabass]

I never said anything about God doing the believing for men. I don't necessarily believe the opposite of your explanation of the employer and the employee. [Why would I answer you according to your folly? Let's keep it civil. WIP]

In your post #159 you posted "Believing is the work of God."

Does God do the work of believing or has God ordained>approved the work of believing for man to do?
Does man do nothing in obtaining salvation while God does all the work?

 

[Seabass]

Or just read what Paul said, "a messenger of Satan," with no speculation whatsoever needed or required.

You are speculating what the thorn in the flesh>messenger of Satan was, yet you try to pass off your speculation as fact.

Again, unlikely.

Paul's personal conclusions from Romans 7:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

"Am" carnal, not was.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

"Do," not did.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Not "used to dwell in me"

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

"Do," not did.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

"Is," not was.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Not "used to war." Warring.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

"I am," not was. "the body of death" Paul still had.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

"Serve," not served.

None of these applications point to anything past tense, but present tense, after salvation. There is a mountain of similar present tense evidence for the same matters.



There is no justification for sin, period.

Jesus condemned sin in sinful flesh and we all have sin. End of conversation. No amount of "works" is going to change that fact.



If you ever pick up on the point that "sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8) you'd see a two fold state. No, the devil is NEVER forgiven, will NEVER be obedient, will NEVER benefit from a single good work that anyone does, will NEVER be legal and all the baptism and holy ghost whatever will avail that working and workER in anyone, who does TEMPT us all INTERNALLY, thereby placing same internally to do so, exactly NADA from God in Christ's perspective.

Unfortunately most believers just don't care to engage these matters, and prefer to see themselves all presently shiny, even though we are plainly told we are "planted" in corruption, weakness, dishonor and in a natural body that is subject to internal temptation and death. 1 Cor. 15

No sense whistling past the graveyard on these subjects of scriptural reality.

I'd progress to inquiries about "your sin" after salvation and how that sin relates to the devil, but I doubt very much it would result in a beneficial discussion.

Even Peter was rebuked by Paul after salvation for being a hypocrite. Barnabus got wrapped up in as well. Let's just say, It happens and is quite an infection. Gal. 2:11-13. Paul called that particular episode

dissimulation, generally meaning:

"pretense, dissembling, deceit, dishonesty, duplicity, lying, guile, subterfuge, feigning, shamming, faking, bluff, bluffing, posturing, hypocrisy"

Quite a STRONG term.

Paul was abundantly clear, that we are justified by faith, as we can NOT be justified ANY other ways, because we are still in fact SINNERS just like all people ARE.

One cannot, at the same time, be both "dead unto sin" (Rom 6:11) yet have sin living in him. That is an impossible proposition for both are mutually exclusive positions. If one has sin living in him then he is not dead unto sin.

In Romans 7, Paul was in fact warning the Christian Jews in Rome, to whom he was writing, about it being sinful for them to return back to the law of Moses.

In Rom 7:1-6 Paul uses the illustration of a woman who is already married yet marries another man thereby having two husbands making her an adulteress. Paul then states that if her husband be dead then she is freed from the law to be married to another man.

The analogy Paul makes with this woman to the Christian is the Christian is married to Christ and His NT gospel. Therefore if those Christian Jews return to the law of Moses, they would be keeping two laws at the same time (as the woman having 2 husbands at the same time) making these Christian Jews spiritual adulterers. Paul then explains how Christ's death on the cross took that OT law of Moses out of the way thereby freed us from that law so we can be married to Him and His NT gospel.

Paul then gives a discourse on the connection between law and sin..if there were no law then there would be no sin. Paul was alive (when he was born) without the law where sin had no power over him Rom 7:7-10. Paul matured and learned the law, learned right from wrong and then sin sprang up in him.

The remaining of Rom 7 Paul speaks of the bondage to sin that OT law left men in for it made complete justification impossible leaving men in sin. One had to keep that OT law flawlessly to stand before God completely justified but of course the Jew would always sin. Saul>Paul was a very zealous religious man who wanted nothing more than to stand before God completely justified yet here in the last part of Rom 7 he speaks to the frustration there was in flawless law keeping.

Paul then contrasts that OT law keeping to the NT gospel that delivers from condemnation of sin by being in Christ, Rom 7:25, Rom 8:1.........

Rom 7:25:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Paul the Christian found deliverance from sin that Saul could not find under the OT law) So then (Paul looks back at himself as Saul the Jew) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Paul sums up Rom 7 again in saying that no matter how one in his mind serves God he is still tied to his sin>serves the law of sin in his flesh until he finds "no condemnation" in Christ Rom 8:1)

 

[MarkT]

--The reason Jesus did not call believing a "work of man" because it was not the idea of man that one must do the work of believing in order to be saved. God is the source of the work of believing and that is why it is called the "work of God". Therefore God, and not man, has approved>ordained the the work of believing and this work must be done by man in order for man to be saved.
When I am hired for a job then I do the "work of the employer".....I do the work that has been approved>ordained by the employer for me to do. The phrase "work of the employer" does not mean the employer does the work while I do nothing but means the employer is the source who has approved>ordained>appointed the work given to me to do.

--Acts 16:31 the verb 'believe' is imperative mood so if God does the work of believing then why was man commanded to do this work? The imperative implies that man has both the ability to believe and the responsibility to do the work of believing.

--John 5:19 Jesus is speaking about Himself and says nothing to the effect that believing is a work God does and not man. Jesus is simply saying the things He said and did were in accord with the will of God. "The Son can do nothing of Himself' proves no mortal man could have done the miraculous things Christ did yet Christ was able to do all He did for God was with Him.

--The seed is the word of God Lk 8:11 and that seed must be "sown in the heart" of men for men to be saved Matt 13:19 and the sowing is done by the preaching of that word and preaching the word is a work that is commanded to the disciples to in the great commission....to go into all the world and preach the gospel>sow the seed.

Seabass

I already explained. And I never said God believes for us. And God does not hire men to believe in him. I never heard such a thing.

And besides that, if belief was a work, then eternal life would be a wage and not a free gift.

 

[MarkT]

In your post #159 you posted "Believing is the work of God."

Does God do the work of believing or has God ordained>approved the work of believing for man to do?
Does man do nothing in obtaining salvation while God does all the work?

No. God does not do the work of believing. God sows the seed (his word) in the heart. If the seed falls on good soil, then the man comes to believe. Therefore believing is the work of God.

Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.

 

[Corn Pop]

No works can live up to Jesus commandments that are only but the same law that was impossible for man to achieve and the reason he was here.

The mind is born again,spiritualy, but who can live it out in the flesh?.

99.999999999% good works = fail.

 

[smaller]

You are speculating what the thorn in the flesh>messenger of Satan was, yet you try to pass off your speculation as fact.

There is no speculation required was the observation. A messenger (angel) of Satan is that.

One cannot, at the same time, be both "dead unto sin" (Rom 6:11) yet have sin living in him. That is an impossible proposition for both are mutually exclusive positions. If one has sin living in him then he is not dead unto sin.

Again, and don't know why this concept seems so difficult to grasp, Paul said sin indwelt his flesh. He said it was not him. Romans 7:17-20. Whatever works are done, they are done with "evil present" also, just like Paul. Romans 7:21. This is the basis of Paul's positions, being justified by faith, alone, because indwelling sin, evil present, the messenger of Satan, the internal tempter can not be justified, ever.

Whatever believers do, they do so, remaining as sinners. 1 John 1:8 People who claim they "have" no sin are not in Truth.

In Romans 7, Paul was in fact warning the Christian Jews in Rome, to whom he was writing, about it being sinful for them to return back to the law of Moses.

That would be an extremely narrow view of the matters Paul lays out in Romans. All scripture is for everyone. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4, 2 Tim. 2:16, Heb. 4:12

In Rom 7:1-6 Paul uses the illustration of a woman who is already married yet marries another man thereby having two husbands making her an adulteress. Paul then states that if her husband be dead then she is freed from the law to be married to another man.

The analogy Paul makes with this woman to the Christian is the Christian is married to Christ and His NT gospel. Therefore if those Christian Jews return to the law of Moses, they would be keeping two laws at the same time (as the woman having 2 husbands at the same time) making these Christian Jews spiritual adulterers. Paul then explains how Christ's death on the cross took that OT law of Moses out of the way thereby freed us from that law so we can be married to Him and His NT gospel.

If you somehow read that means a believer became sinless via any action or work I'd suggest that is a position that can't hold water.

Paul then gives a discourse on the connection between law and sin..if there were no law then there would be no sin.

Uh, no. The "law" reveals and even empowers sin. 1 Cor. 15:56. That doesn't mean sin isn't therein, in the flesh, regardless, nor does it mean that the "law" made or created sin.

Paul was alive (when he was born) without the law where sin had no power over him Rom 7:7-10. Paul matured and learned the law, learned right from wrong and then sin sprang up in him.

The remaining of Rom 7 Paul speaks of the bondage to sin that OT law left men in for it made complete justification impossible leaving men in sin. One had to keep that OT law flawlessly to stand before God completely justified but of course the Jew would always sin. Saul>Paul was a very zealous religious man who wanted nothing more than to stand before God completely justified yet here in the last part of Rom 7 he speaks to the frustration there was in flawless law keeping.

We can very clearly see Paul's after salvation situation, as noted prior. That is also why all this utter nonsense about various "works" unto justification are laughable. No one makes indwelling sin, evil present or the tempter anything different or any better by any works that they do. IF the Word moves Satan "into action WITHIN MAN," (it does, see Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables for example) THEN there is no such theological animal as "just and only a man, singular tense." And this is the case that scripture makes. Jesus dealt with "other entities" IN MAN on nearly every page of the Gospels. The really odd thing is, that very few people take these facts into considerations in their positions. And I chalk that up to the power of obfuscation, a very REAL power, that these entities have "in man."

There hasn't been a single person here for example in the 12 years I've posted here (that I recall) that has been able to "connect" the theological dot that the tempter DOES tempt internally, making that bad actor INTERNALLY located. It's quite a weird thing, this matter of blatant outright denial.

Paul then contrasts that OT law keeping to the NT gospel that delivers from condemnation of sin by being in Christ, Rom 7:25, Rom 8:1.........

Dual but conflicting truths are difficult matters to perceive. For example, MAN can be forgiven of every sin and blasphemy, BUT Satan and his messengers can NOT be forgiven and won't be. Since we have observed that scripture shows these TWO entities are overlapped, it does make for difficulties. Romans 9:19-23 and numerous other scriptural citing's such as Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 etc. etc.

Very few Bible expositors take this into considerations, especially, personally. To me this is an instant sign that they are somewhat blind to the obvious.

Rom 7:25:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Paul the Christian found deliverance from sin that Saul could not find under the OT law) So then (Paul looks back at himself as Saul the Jew) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Paul sums up Rom 7 again in saying that no matter how one in his mind serves God he is still tied to his sin>serves the law of sin in his flesh until he finds "no condemnation" in Christ Rom 8:1)

There is no "until." Sin indwelling the flesh remains condemned. That verdict isn't going to change.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

People who think they are sinless or that their works somehow made them sinless don't have a scriptural clue as to what they are claiming. IF Paul was the chief of sinners AFTER salvation (he was by his own confession in 1 Tim. 1:15), THEN we should try to understand "how" he derived that claim. I think it's blatantly obvious. That a messenger of Satan, evil present, indwelling sin, was in his own flesh, just as he said. IF we understand that the tempter does tempt, internally, and that Apostles are engaged in and with The Word, then it is very reasonable to see that they come into MORE internal battles with THE TEMPTER, hence Paul's factual conclusion, BECAUSE he was seeing "his" internal self deadly accurately as TWO VESSELS, himself and the tempter. 1 Thes. 3:5

People can dip and confess and do any other type of "works" actions and they will simultaneously NEVER justify that worker or working within them.

2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[Seabass]

Seabass

I already explained. And I never said God believes for us. And God does not hire men to believe in him. I never heard such a thing.

And besides that, if belief was a work, then eternal life would be a wage and not a free gift.

Again, in your post #159 you posted "Believing is the work of God."

Someone does the work of believing, so does God do the work of believing for man or does man do this work himself?

I gave multiple examples from the bible back at the beginning of this thread that proves free gifts do come with conditions and meeting the conditions do not in anyway earn the free gift.

 

[Seabass]

No. God does not do the work of believing. God sows the seed (his word) in the heart. If the seed falls on good soil, then the man comes to believe. Therefore believing is the work of God.

Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.

Back in you post #159 you posted:
So how can you say believing is not his work? How can you say it is not the work of God?
Believing is the work of God.

Now above you post "God does not do the work of believing"

God's word is the seed, Lk 8:11, yet men are the ones that must do the sowing of that seed/word by preaching it. Men have the responsibility of sowing per the great commission in going to all the world preaching to every creature/all nations. Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16.

Rom 10:14,15 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

The seed/word of God is spread by men through preaching (1 Cor 1:21) and faith comes by hearing the word (seed) of God Rom 10:17.

In the context of Matthew 13 where it tells us about the seed being sown:
Mt 13:19 says "When any one heareth the word..."
Mt 13:20 "he that heareth the word"
Mt 13:22 " he that heareth the word"
Mt 13:23 " he that heareth the word, and understandeth it"

The seed/word is something men must hear and the hearing comes by the work of preaching the word/seed by men.

The role God plays in men believing is providing the word/seed for men to hear and believe. In that sense God's work in men believing is providing the seed/word for men to hear and understand and believe.

 

[Seabass]

No works can live up to Jesus commandments that are only but the same law that was impossible for man to achieve and the reason he was here.

The mind is born again,spiritualy, but who can live it out in the flesh?.

99.999999999% good works = fail.

If one does not obey the commands of Christ, not only does that disobedience prove that man does not love Christ, Jn 14:15 but proves that man is an unrighteous lawbreaker in not keeping the laws/commands of Christ....and no unrighteous lawbreaker will be saved.

Christ's commands are to be obeyed if one desires to be saved, Heb 5:9 but I know of nowhere in the bible that God expects me to follow those commands flawlessly. God is not looking for flawless law keeping but a faithful obedience as Abraham had. Since I cannot keep Christ's commands flawlessly and God is not expecting me to, that is why God gave me the avenue of repentance, a second avenue of pardon that allows me to repent of my sins when I do fall short and thereby receive God's pardon through repentance.

All the good works a lost sinner may do can never save him, but a faithful (not perfect) obedience to the will/commands of God can save him.

 

[Seabass]

There is no speculation required was the observation. A messenger (angel) of Satan is that.

Speculation is required since the bible does not specify what that thorn in the flesh/messenger of Satan was.

Again, and don't know why this concept seems so difficult to grasp, Paul said sin indwelt his flesh. He said it was not him. Romans 7:17-20. Whatever works are done, they are done with "evil present" also, just like Paul. Romans 7:21. This is the basis of Paul's positions, being justified by faith, alone, because indwelling sin, evil present, the messenger of Satan, the internal tempter can not be justified, ever.

Whatever believers do, they do so, remaining as sinners. 1 John 1:8 People who claim they "have" no sin are not in Truth.


That would be an extremely narrow view of the matters Paul lays out in Romans. All scripture is for everyone. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4, 2 Tim. 2:16, Heb. 4:12


If you somehow read that means a believer became sinless via any action or work I'd suggest that is a position that can't hold water.



Uh, no. The "law" reveals and even empowers sin. 1 Cor. 15:56. That doesn't mean sin isn't therein, in the flesh, regardless, nor does it mean that the "law" made or created sin.



We can very clearly see Paul's after salvation situation, as noted prior. That is also why all this utter nonsense about various "works" unto justification are laughable. No one makes indwelling sin, evil present or the tempter anything different or any better by any works that they do. IF the Word moves Satan "into action WITHIN MAN," (it does, see Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables for example) THEN there is no such theological animal as "just and only a man, singular tense." And this is the case that scripture makes. Jesus dealt with "other entities" IN MAN on nearly every page of the Gospels. The really odd thing is, that very few people take these facts into considerations in their positions. And I chalk that up to the power of obfuscation, a very REAL power, that these entities have "in man."

There hasn't been a single person here for example in the 12 years I've posted here (that I recall) that has been able to "connect" the theological dot that the tempter DOES tempt internally, making that bad actor INTERNALLY located. It's quite a weird thing, this matter of blatant outright denial.



Dual but conflicting truths are difficult matters to perceive. For example, MAN can be forgiven of every sin and blasphemy, BUT Satan and his messengers can NOT be forgiven and won't be. Since we have observed that scripture shows these TWO entities are overlapped, it does make for difficulties. Romans 9:19-23 and numerous other scriptural citing's such as Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8 etc. etc.

Very few Bible expositors take this into considerations, especially, personally. To me this is an instant sign that they are somewhat blind to the obvious.



There is no "until." Sin indwelling the flesh remains condemned. That verdict isn't going to change.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

People who think they are sinless or that their works somehow made them sinless don't have a scriptural clue as to what they are claiming. IF Paul was the chief of sinners AFTER salvation (he was by his own confession in 1 Tim. 1:15), THEN we should try to understand "how" he derived that claim. I think it's blatantly obvious. That a messenger of Satan, evil present, indwelling sin, was in his own flesh, just as he said. IF we understand that the tempter does tempt, internally, and that Apostles are engaged in and with The Word, then it is very reasonable to see that they come into MORE internal battles with THE TEMPTER, hence Paul's factual conclusion, BECAUSE he was seeing "his" internal self deadly accurately as TWO VESSELS, himself and the tempter. 1 Thes. 3:5

People can dip and confess and do any other type of "works" actions and they will simultaneously NEVER justify that worker or working within them.

2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Again, it is NOT POSSIBLE for one to be dead unto sin yet have sin still dwelling in him. If one has sin dwelling in him then he is not dead unto sin in any sense of the word 'dead'. I do not understand why you do not see this contradiction, that both cannot be true at the same time.

In Rom 7:20 when Paul said " sin that dwelleth in me" was a reference to himself back when he was Saul living under the OT law for that OT law made it impossible for him to be completely justified from his sin. Paul was explaining to the Christian Jews to whom he was writing that Christ's death has made dead to that OT law (Rom 7:4) that gave sin the ability to dwell in them since it required flawless law keeping. Paul reminds them that as CHristian they are "in Christ" where there is no condemnation, no sin dwelling in them.

In Rom 6:17,18 the order Paul put things was:
1) servants of sin
2) they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then they were freed from sin.

I see nothing "laughable" about Paul putting obedience to God's will BEFORE justification/freed from sin.

God will have, so to speak, the "last laugh" at those that will not obey His will: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." Prov 1:24-33

Each person is in either one of two positions, each person is either 1) obeying the counsel of God or 2) they have noting to do with God's counsel or reproof. This is similar to what Paul says in Rom 6:16 where each person either serves 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness. Lack of an obedient faith is NOT serving obedience unto righteousness nor obeying the counsel of God.

 

[WIP]

If one does not obey the commands of Christ, not only does that disobedience prove that man does not love Christ, Jn 14:15 but proves that man is an unrighteous lawbreaker in not keeping the laws/commands of Christ....and no unrighteous lawbreaker will be saved.

Christ's commands are to be obeyed if one desires to be saved, Heb 5:9 but I know of nowhere in the bible that God expects me to follow those commands flawlessly. God is not looking for flawless law keeping but a faithful obedience as Abraham had. Since I cannot keep Christ's commands flawlessly and God is not expecting me to, that is why God gave me the avenue of repentance, a second avenue of pardon that allows me to repent of my sins when I do fall short and thereby receive God's pardon through repentance.

All the good works a lost sinner may do can never save him, but a faithful (not perfect) obedience to the will/commands of God can save him.

Are you sure God does not "expect" us to be perfect? I understand that God realizes that we will not be perfect but Matthew 5 seems to indicate that His expectations might be much higher.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethrenonly, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-18 NKJV

 

[Seabass]

Are you sure God does not "expect" us to be perfect? I understand that God realizes that we will not be perfect but Matthew 5 seems to indicate that His expectations might be much higher.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethrenonly, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-18 NKJV

Hi,

If God is looking/expecting sinless perfection, flawlessness law keeping from man, then what man will be saved? None...."For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Mt 5:43 Christians are to be perfect, Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 Christians are "holy and without blame" and "without spot and blameless" and the church is "without wrinkle" Eph 5:27. Since Christians do sin (1 Jn 1:1-10) then the only way for the Christian to be perfect, holy and without spot and blame and without wrinkle is by walking in the light where then Christ's blood continues to cleanse away all sins and that continual cleansing away of ALL sins leaves the Christian perfect, holy without spot and blame and wrinkle in Christ. The Christian can be perfect in Christ but that does not mean the Christian is expected to be perfectly sinless.

If the Christian is expected to never sin then how is one to make sense of 1 Jn 1:8-10 which gives a remedy for the sins the Christians does commit? Why the need for this remedy at all if it is expected for the Christian to never transgress the law of God and sin?

Also, if the Christian can keep the law flawlessly then he does not need to be "in Christ" to have his sins all washed away for he does not commit any sins that need to be washed away. Not only that, the Christian would not even need to be in Christ at all for by his flawless law keeping he can earn salvation. It's my opinion then that by the fact God has planned salvation to be "in Christ" is proof God did not expect Christians to be flawlessly sinless but must be IN CHRIST to have all sins washed away by the blood of Christ to make the Christian perfect, spotless, blameless IN CHRIST.

I think God expects the Christian is to put forth the effort to not sin, but God knows the Christian will fall short no matter the amount of effort therefore the Christian is given the remedy for his sinning in 1 Jn 1:8-10.

 

[Sinthesis]

'Perfect' doesn't always mean what you probably think it means.

 

[WIP]

I think there's a difference between where the bar is set and what we can achieve of our own volition. I believe the bar has been set. God demands perfection and expects it from us as Jesus tells us in Matthew 5. We have proven that we are not capable of reaching that level of perfection but that is no excuse. Fortunately, through the righteousness of Noah and his family, God stopped short of dealing with us. Because of His great love for us He provided a way by sending Jesus, the perfect unblemished Lamb to pay the atonement on our behalf.

 

[MarkT]

Again, in your post #159 you posted "Believing is the work of God."

Someone does the work of believing, so does God do the work of believing for man or does man do this work himself?

I gave multiple examples from the bible back at the beginning of this thread that proves free gifts do come with conditions and meeting the conditions do not in anyway earn the free gift.

I don't know why you keep calling it work. Believing isn't a work, neither does it require any kind of work; only a believing heart. So when Jesus answered, '“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:29, he is referring to the work of the sower. The work of the sower, and Jesus said he was the sower Mt. 13:37 because he was doing the work of God John 5:19, and it is through him that we believe, is that you believe in him whom he has sent. And I wouldn't call it a condition either; believing is just the outcome of hearing our Master's voice. It does not require any effort at all.

 

[MarkT]

Back in you post #159 you posted:
So how can you say believing is not his work? How can you say it is not the work of God?
Believing is the work of God.

Now above you post "God does not do the work of believing"

God's word is the seed, Lk 8:11, yet men are the ones that must do the sowing of that seed/word by preaching it. Men have the responsibility of sowing per the great commission in going to all the world preaching to every creature/all nations. Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16.

Rom 10:14,15 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

The seed/word of God is spread by men through preaching (1 Cor 1:21) and faith comes by hearing the word (seed) of God Rom 10:17.

In the context of Matthew 13 where it tells us about the seed being sown:
Mt 13:19 says "When any one heareth the word..."
Mt 13:20 "he that heareth the word"
Mt 13:22 " he that heareth the word"
Mt 13:23 " he that heareth the word, and understandeth it"

The seed/word is something men must hear and the hearing comes by the work of preaching the word/seed by men.

The role God plays in men believing is providing the word/seed for men to hear and believe. In that sense God's work in men believing is providing the seed/word for men to hear and understand and believe.

That's right. Preachers preach the word. Teachers teach the word. Believers believe the word. But that does not make believing a work. It is God who gives growth. As Paul said, "I planted, Apol′los watered, but God gave the growth". 1 Cor. 3:6 Believing is not a work like planting and watering. Believing is the work of God.

 

[smaller]

Speculation is required since the bible does not specify what that thorn in the flesh/messenger of Satan was.

Really?

Again, it is NOT POSSIBLE for one to be dead unto sin yet have sin still dwelling in him.

Then we ought to wipe a whole lot of scriptures out, for example:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If one has sin dwelling in him then he is not dead unto sin in any sense of the word 'dead'. I do not understand why you do not see this contradiction, that both cannot be true at the same time.

Just step into the world of those claiming they are sinless then, and we can move to examine the truth of such a claim.

In Rom 7:20 when Paul said " sin that dwelleth in me" was a reference to himself back when he was Saul living under the OT law for that OT law made it impossible for him to be completely justified from his sin. Paul was explaining to the Christian Jews to whom he was writing that Christ's death has made dead to that OT law (Rom 7:4) that gave sin the ability to dwell in them since it required flawless law keeping. Paul reminds them that as CHristian they are "in Christ" where there is no condemnation, no sin dwelling in them.

We've already covered this. The numerous deployments Paul personally made in these matters are "present tense" not "past tense" applications. For another example we can observe that Paul in 1 Tim. 1:15 said "I am" the chief of sinners, not "I was" or "I used to be."

And the elaboration of this is that believers do engage internal temptations of the tempter, placing that work and worker internal in order to do so, and further, that since Apostles engage this principle of The Word, Mark 4:15, moreso than the average Joe believer, then they are also subject to MORE temptation of the tempter. We do have a battle on our hands, as noted prior. The battlefield is "internal," first, in the nature of our adversary. This is also "how" Paul derived that evil "IS" present with me in Romans 7:21, again, not "was," IS.

I see nothing "laughable" about Paul putting obedience to God's will BEFORE justification/freed from sin.

Whatever Paul believed would not avail the working of the tempter "within" anything. This is "why" justification is not and can not be "of works" because "all" of our "works" are in fact tainted by the presence of indwelling sin and the internal temptations of the tempter, which place both that working and that worker "in the flesh."

2 Corinthians 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

James 4:
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The "foundation" of unmerited Grace and Divine Mercy is based on our 'factual needs' of same, because of our present conditions, indwelling sin, which is in fact DEMONIC. 1 John 3:8.

The same Grace that lifts us and places us into FAITH, arouses the DEVILs to anger, and to fight because the intentions of Grace is to REVEAL and to DESTROY them. (Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, Matt. 10:26, Isaiah 27:1) "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8

The Divine Mercy that "allows" us to STAND IN FAITH avails DEVILs exactly nothing. They will not be recipients of Divine Mercy, but Divine Wrath and Divine Destruction.

I have every faith that the full intentions of God in Christ is to DESTROY the devil and "his works", and this destruction will transpire IN people of faith in Jesus Christ, first.


1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

We stand under TWO JUDGMENTS.

One, the JUDGMENT OF HIS ETERNAL LIFE, which can NOT be taken from us.

The other, the JUDGMENT of DESTRUCTION, of all the ways and works of our adversary, and eventually, when it is TIME, the Adversary himself.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: