Work For A Free Gift?

[Seabass]

Believing doesn't come by commandment. However, obedience does come by believing in the one you obey.

Acts 16:31 the verb 'believe' is in the imperative mood, the jailer was commanded to believe. Therefore the jailer 'believing' is an obedient act in response to the command given him.

 

[Seabass]

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 Examine yourselves to see whether you are (in the faith); test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son

If you are not being conformed into the likeness of God's Son, you haven't been given the gift. The gift is acknowledging that you are aware of the magnitude of what Jesus has done, and you know him...........and it doesn't just stop there.

Ephesians 4:22-23 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Examining ourselves is the work we do. To let the Holy Spirit do his work in us, is "us" submitting to the Spirit. That is our work. We are doing work, cause it is not exactly easy to let the Holy Spirit take over our "old self". If you read Paul's letters, he struggled all the time. Even Jesus prayed that Peter would not fail, cause Satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat.

"Examining yourselves" is a work given to those who were ALREADY Christians. Yet one who is not saved- never been a Christian has obedient works to do to meet the conditions placed upon the free gift of salvation. Conditional obedient works are necessary on order to be saved and conditional obedient works are necessary on order to remain in a saved position.

 

[Seabass]

You're missing the point even because of the semantics you are introducing. Luther is saying faith alone, because we're already disobedient. God condemns us all as disobedient and in need of mercy in some degree. Romans 11:32. He desires mercy and understanding without hypocrisy. If we wish to be obedient we need to be merciful also. Luther never said men of faith won't do good works.

I disagree,

Faith only tries to gt one first saved then do works.The bible puts obedient works before salvation.

Process of being saved by faith only:
1) faith only- no works >>>>>>>>>>>> 2) saved>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) then do works

Process of being saved according to the bible;
1) obedient faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) saved >>>>>>>>>>> continues doing obedient works to continues to be saved Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5, Matt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16 Rev 2:10;26.


There is a nite and day difference in the two processes above.
Faith only tries to save one with a ded faith only while the bible says it takes a obedient/working faith in order to be saved.


If one is initially saved by faith only/no works then that means one can be saved without doing the work of repenting, confessing Christ or submitting to baptism. Yet it is not possible for an impenitent, denier of Christ that rejects the gospel message by refusing to be baptized to be saved, Rom 2:4,5. Rom 10:9,10, Acts 2:41

 

[LovethroughDove]

Your post is about "USING" the free gift. My point is one does not even receive the free gift unless he FIRST works to meet the conditions placed upon the free gift.

I don't agree that you have to work for the free gift part. God will give it to you. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

[smaller]

One is not earning the love of Christ by obeying Christ's commands but one must work to meet the condition (obey commands) placed upon remaining in the love of Christ. There is a general love God has for all mankind Jn 3:16 but there is a special Fatherly love God has for those that are His children and being in that special Fatherly love is conditional and one must take care to keep himself in that love, Jude 1:21.

And you do that by potentially condemning yourself or others? Quite an odd sight. [Personal remak implies others are dishonest. ToS 2.4 WIP]

You've cited this several times now. Here:

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

I observed with you a couple times now, this sight that Paul had of himself:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above example, there is PAUL and there is a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

I expect that ONE of those vessels WAS in fact disobedient, could NOT obey, AND, even further, that the WRATH of God abided upon. And it was NOT Paul.

Jesus advised us that we will LIVE by Every Word of God, presumably, even the BAD Words. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4.

Some in the lump of "me" however won't get it or understand it, or even less, obey it.

 

[Seabass]

Us believing is the work of God.

Acts 16:31 doesn't say men are commanded to believe. It says, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'. Like I said, the gift is the sacrifice for former sins for all who repent and believe. For instance, if a man repents and he believes the word of the Lord today, then his former sins will be forgotten. However the teachings of Jesus are for life going forward. Jesus said

Matthew 7:24
“Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

Matthew 7:26
And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

So if you believe this, then you will keep his commandments (because he said if you love me you will keep my commandments John 14:15) And likewise store up treasure, because he said store up treasure, 'but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Mt. 6:20-21

You posted "Us believing is the work of God."

I disagree. It is not God's work or onus to see to it that men believe. Believing is a work of God that God has given men to do..God is the source of the work and gives that work to man. Just as one does the "work of his employer" does not mean the employer does the work himself but the employer is the source of the work that he gives to the employee to do. If the employer does all the work himself, h has no need for employees.

Note the language of 1 Cor 16:10:
"Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

The one that beileves is working the work of the Lord as both Paul and Timothy worketh the work of the Lord.....the Lord is not doing the work but is GIVING the work to men to work. Therefore men are told to "work out your salvation" for God has given men the work of believing repenting confessing submitting to baptism in order to be saved. Those that do these things are doing the work of God, working the works of the Lord.

================

In Acts 16:31 the verb 'believe' is in the imperative mood. Therefore believing is a command given to the jailer to do and not a command given to God to do for the jailer.
You posted "if a man repents and he believes the word of the Lord today, then his former sins will be forgotten"
I agree. Both repentance and believing are two works God has given men to do and those men that works these two works of the Lord then their former sins will be forgiven. The Lord does not have the onus upon Him to do the works of repentance and believing for men nor does the Lord have any culpability for those men that do not work these works of the Lord.

Jn 5:24 those that do the works of hearing and believing are therefore working the works of the Lord. It is not God's onus to work those works for me or anyone else.

 

[Seabass]

I don't agree that you have to work for the free gift part. God will give it to you. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jn 6:45 tells me HOW God draws men:

And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Men are taught, hear and learn of God then come to Christ.

God draws, men come.

Men do the work of coming to Christ and one comes to Christ by doing what Christ said. How does one know what Christ said to do in order to come to Christ (Lk 6:46)? By being taught, hearing and learning.

 

[john darling]

Process of being saved by faith only:
1) faith only- no works >>>>>>>>>>>> 2) saved>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) then do works

Process of being saved according to the bible;
1) obedient faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) saved >>>>>>>>>>> continues doing obedient works to continues to be saved Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5, Matt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16 Rev 2:10;26.


There is a nite and day difference in the two processes above.

Hi Seabass. I get what you are saying here, though I think it could be a little confusing the way you've worded it. I think, in the first example, the faith you mention isn't really faith, because faith without at least some kind of effort to act on the best we know isn't really faith.

The kind of faith I think you are referencing in the first example is the kind of faith even the devils have (i.e. a belief in the existance of God. (James 2:19))

However, then you go on to say (step 3 in the process of being saved in the first example) "then do works" which I think adds confusion again because if someone is doing the works that God wants then they do become saved (even if they initially started with a lack of genuine faith), assuming it really is the works God wants them to do (and not religious formulas).

Perhaps a clearer way to word it would be something like:
1. Belief in the existance of God >>>>>>>>>> 2) Saved >>>>>>>>>>> 3) No works because Jesus did it all on the cross anyway.

I agree that your second example is a much better example of what the Bible teaches.

 

[childeye]

No, I wasn't expecting you to do that. I was saying once we've agreed that obedience is necessary then we can move on to what it is Jesus expected us to do with/in life. I posted the list because you wanted to know what I meant. Do you see anything from the list which you feel would be good for further discussion? There's some pretty crunchy stuff there...

Or I dunno, maybe this isn't the proper thread for it. I'll start another thread about this particular topic.

My suggestion are those things that Jesus equates with building on sand and building on rock from Matthew 7.

 

[childeye]

The biblical "believe carries the idea of obedience as does faith.

Unbelief is disobedience. Same Greek word.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Probably the clearest example of this is from the garden, where Adam did not obey God, because he believed Satan instead.

If he would have believed God, he would have obeyed God.


Whenever we see the phrase believe and be saved, it always carries the meaning of obey and be saved.

The Gospel of the kingdom is; Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

If we believe this we will obey and repent, which is to turn to God, by turning from Satan.

Then we will be forgiven our sins.

Those who only believe but don't obey by turning from serving Satan, to God and serving Him, can not expect to be forgiven.



JLB

You know JLB, I loved how you equated belief with obedience, particularly using the Garden of Eden example. I was smiling as I was hearing a voice of clarity. But then you finish with a line that separates the two as if they aren't the same thing which then obscures everything once again. Why do you do that?

 

[Seabass]

And you do that by potentially condemning yourself or others?

Jude 1:21 is a COMMAND to the Christian to keep himself in the love of God. The Christian therefore CAN remove himslef from the Fatherly love of god and become lost.

[Edited. Removed reference to deleted item. WIP]

You've cited this several times now. Here:

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"But" is a contrasting word, contrasting the one that 'believeth' from the one that 'obeyeth not'.

{{Side note: some versions render this verse "but him that believeth not'. The Greek word for believe is pisteuo therefore 'believeth not" would be apisteou but the underlying Greek word is not apisteou but is "apeitheō" which mean to not obey, not comply, disobedience. Putting the letter "a" in front of the words gives them a negative meaning}}

I observed with you a couple times now, this sight that Paul had of himself:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above example, there is PAUL and there is a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

I expect that ONE of those vessels WAS in fact disobedient, could NOT obey, AND, even further, that the WRATH of God abided upon. And it was NOT Paul.

Jesus advised us that we will LIVE by Every Word of God, presumably, even the BAD Words. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4.

Some in the lump of "me" however won't get it or understand it, or even less, obey it.

It's my opinion that the thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan was bad eyesight Gal 4:15; Gal 6:11. But it could be that Paul may have had bad eyesight but the thorn in the flesh could be something else that Paul is referring to. If it is a reference to false teachers in Corinth, God did not make them fales teachers/unbelievers just so they would be a thorn in Paul's flesh. They chose of their own free will to hinder the truth and God allowed them to be so. God used their free will choice of unbelief to buffet Paul.

In 1 Thess 2:18 Paul said "Satan hindered us"...Satan became a "thorn in the side" of Paul in Thessalonica. It is in Acts 17 where the Jews, of their own free will (Acts 17:5-9), went about to hinder Paul from ever returning to the Thessalonica church...Paul wanted to return but Satan hindered him. Those Jews had allowed themselves to be made blind and deaf by Satan. God used people as these to buffet Paul.

 

[JLB]

You know JLB, I loved how you equated belief with obedience, particularly using the Garden of Eden example. I was smiling as I was hearing a voice of clarity. But then you finish with a line that separates the two as if they aren't the same thing which then obscures everything once again. Why do you do that?

I'm sorry. I should have worded it differently.

The "modern" definition of believe has divorced the idea of obeying from believing.

I will change my wording.


JLB

 

[smaller]

It's my opinion that the thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan was bad eyesight Gal 4:15; Gal 6:11. But it could be that Paul may have had bad eyesight but the thorn in the flesh could be something else that Paul is referring to. If it is a reference to false teachers in Corinth, God did not make them fales teachers/unbelievers just so they would be a thorn in Paul's flesh. They chose of their own free will to hinder the truth and God allowed them to be so. God used their free will choice of unbelief to buffet Paul.

It is no opinion that it was a messenger of Satan, clearly stated as such, by Paul, in his own flesh.

messenger - aggelos {ang'-el-os} "angel"

It is also equally clear that messengers of Satan are under the wrath of God, and disobedient to boot.

Believers tend to see this and other matters with Paul as anything BUT what it really was, a messenger of Satan, as that might make them have to contemplate their own sins (1 John 1:8), temptations (Gal. 4:14), evil present (Romans 7:21), indwelling sin (Romans 7:17-20) and internal disobedience and lusts (Romans 7:7-13) in relationship to the devil, 1 John 3:8, 1 Tim. 1:15

I personally consider this to be the dividing line between those who can speak truthfully, and those who can not by virtue of their position of inferiority to that working, that is not them as believers. Romans 6:12.

Every last Pharisee then and today speaks the same identical language, in this way, exactly the same:

Luke 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Paul was not a hypocrite:

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

and Paul did not hold back on laying this fact on himself either, AFTER salvation:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 

[childeye]

The "modern" definition of believe has divorced the idea of obeying from believing.

This is a very important point, and it is well said. How many arguments and divisions could be avoided if everyone understood this?

 

[childeye]

I disagree,

Faith only tries to gt one first saved then do works.The bible puts obedient works before salvation.

Process of being saved by faith only:
1) faith only- no works >>>>>>>>>>>> 2) saved>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) then do works

Process of being saved according to the bible;
1) obedient faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) saved >>>>>>>>>>> continues doing obedient works to continues to be saved Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5, Matt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16 Rev 2:10;26.


There is a nite and day difference in the two processes above.
Faith only tries to save one with a ded faith only while the bible says it takes a obedient/working faith in order to be saved.


If one is initially saved by faith only/no works then that means one can be saved without doing the work of repenting, confessing Christ or submitting to baptism. Yet it is not possible for an impenitent, denier of Christ that rejects the gospel message by refusing to be baptized to be saved, Rom 2:4,5. Rom 10:9,10, Acts 2:41

I understand your point seabass. Here's the problem. You talk as if one can have sincere faith in Jesus and yet deny Him. I feel that you should qualify that disobedient faith as a false or insincere faith, rather than claim that faith alone will not make a man repent, confess Christ, or submit to baptism. I don't even like this submit to baptism thing. It sounds like something someone has to do, rather than something Christ does for us.

 

[john darling]

I understand your point seabass. Here's the problem. You talk as if one can have sincere faith in Jesus and yet deny Him

I didn't get that from what I read of Seabass' comments. Can you quote the comments he made which gave you the impression that one can have sincer faith and yet deny Jesus at the same time?

 

[childeye]

I didn't get that from what I read of Seabass' comments. Can you quote the comments he made which gave you the impression that one can have sincer faith and yet deny Jesus at the same time?

If one is initially saved by faith only/no works then that means one can be saved without doing the work of repenting, confessing Christ or submitting to baptism.

 

[MarkT]

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you:"


Jesus GIVES everlasting life, therefore it is a free gift yet at the same time Jesus said to labour for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.


Jesus' free gift of everlasting life comes with conditions attached (belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism) and one must w
g the salvation of his household by the conditional obedient work in building the ark? No. The salvation of his household was by grace but that free gift of grace came with the condition of building the ark.

John 6:27 is referring to the food Jesus gives us. For it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’' Mt. 4:4 Jesus is the life. John 11:25 He gave us food and water so that we might know the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. For he said, 'this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' John 17:3 Eternal life is not like a gift that comes in a box; eternal life is knowing the Father and Jesus Christ. So how many men know the Father and the Son? His sheep follow him because we know him and we know our Father. By this we know we have eternal life.

 

[MarkT]

You posted "Us believing is the work of God."

I disagree. It is not God's work or onus to see to it that men believe. Believing is a work of God that God has given men to do..God is the source of the work and gives that work to man. Just as one does the "work of his employer" does not mean the employer does the work himself but the employer is the source of the work that he gives to the employee to do. If the employer does all the work himself, h has no need for employees.

You think God is employing us to believe in him? Does the employer not believe in himself that he needs an employee to believe in him for him? Funny argument.

No. Whether it is work we do or work God does, either way it is the work of God, according to John 6:28-29 You maybe doing it, but it is the work of God. We are his work. Eph. 2:10

It's inherent in the question, "What must we do to be doing the works of God?" And Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.' Otherwise why call it the work of God? Why relate believing to the work of God if it is not the work of God?

And it was also Paul's understanding that we believe according to the working of his great might. Ephesians 1:19 'and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might.'

So Paul's understanding is consistent with Jesus' teaching, and that is my understanding as well.

I think we believe because God wills it. He drew us to Jesus (perhaps belief is a manifestation of God drawing us to his Son) and he is working in us. He has us in his hand, and he won't let us fall into unbelief.

Note the language of 1 Cor 16:10:
"Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

The one that beileves is working the work of the Lord as both Paul and Timothy worketh the work of the Lord.....the Lord is not doing the work but is GIVING the work to men to work. Therefore men are told to "work out your salvation" for God has given men the work of believing repenting confessing submitting to baptism in order to be saved. Those that do these things are doing the work of God, working the works of the Lord.

Paul preached the gospel. That was his work. Obviously Paul is not talking about believing here.

In Acts 16:31 the verb 'believe' is in the imperative mood. Therefore believing is a command given to the jailer to do and not a command given to God to do for the jailer.

It's not a command at all. Whoever heard of anyone commanding someone to believe? You see a command; I see an answer to a question. If Jailer was meant to believe, if it was God's will, then he would believe.

You posted "if a man repents and he believes the word of the Lord today, then his former sins will be forgotten"
I agree. Both repentance and believing are two works God has given men to do and those men that works these two works of the Lord then their former sins will be forgiven. The Lord does not have the onus upon Him to do the works of repentance and believing for men nor does the Lord have any culpability for those men that do not work these works of the Lord.

Jn 5:24 those that do the works of hearing and believing are therefore working the works of the Lord. It is not God's onus to work those works for me or anyone else.

You can exhort men to repent. You can warn the wicked. But you can't make men believe. Paul wrote, "For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Ro. 10:10

So who gave us this believing heart? Was it not God? Did God not create the heart as well as the body? Some hearts he hardens so that they do not believe.

"Therefore they could not believe. For Isaiah again said,

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.” John 12:39-40

So how can you say belief is not a work of God?

 

[MarkT]

God can save anyone he wants to save, but corrupt minded men continue to oppose the truth, and they continue to do evil and abominable deeds. For example, God said, “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba′al.” Romans 11:4 Will they save themselves or will God save them?

You might think belief is your work, but really it was and it is God's work all along. Thank God for his work/help. He did what we could not and can not do on our own.
Psalm 146:5
Happy is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God,