Work For A Free Gift?

[JLB]

" And Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'

When you understand that the word
"Believe" carries the meanings of;
Commit, trust and obey, then it is much easier to understand.

This is the work of God, that you obey Him who He sent.,,

We find this throughout the scriptures in verse's such as..,

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

Jesus said, why do you call Me Lord, but not do what I say. Luke 6:46

Obeying the Gospel command to repent, means we turn to God, which is done by confessing Jesus as Lord.


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

When you understand that the word
"Believe" carries the meanings of;
Commit, trust and obey, then it is much easier to understand.

JLB

JLB, you know I agree with you on obeying what Jesus has said. But, In John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.".................. Jesus is only referring to himself. Because he is the literal Son of God, Messiah and the Christ.

When you really believe this, you want to obey. And, you understand he is Lord

Edit: This is why Jesus said unless you change and become like children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 18:3

When we are older we tend to not think miracles like the Word becoming flesh, John 1:1 happen.

 

[WIP]

When we are older we tend to not think miracles like the Word becoming flesh, John 1:1 happen.

Actually for me the opposite is true. When I was younger I didn't believe it. Now I do.

 

[Seabass]

It is no opinion that it was a messenger of Satan, clearly stated as such, by Paul, in his own flesh.

messenger - aggelos {ang'-el-os} "angel"

It is also equally clear that messengers of Satan are under the wrath of God, and disobedient to boot.

Believers tend to see this and other matters with Paul as anything BUT what it really was, a messenger of Satan, as that might make them have to contemplate their own sins (1 John 1:8), temptations (Gal. 4:14), evil present (Romans 7:21), indwelling sin (Romans 7:17-20) and internal disobedience and lusts (Romans 7:7-13) in relationship to the devil, 1 John 3:8, 1 Tim. 1:15

I personally consider this to be the dividing line between those who can speak truthfully, and those who can not by virtue of their position of inferiority to that working, that is not them as believers. Romans 6:12.

Every last Pharisee then and today speaks the same identical language, in this way, exactly the same:

Luke 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Paul was not a hypocrite:

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

and Paul did not hold back on laying this fact on himself either, AFTER salvation:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

People have for centuries given their opinion on what this thorn was in Paul's flesh. The bible does not tell us specifically what it was so people are left to speculate. What it was does not matter for it has no bearing on one's salvation.

2 Cor 12:8 KJV "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me."
2 Cor 12:8 ASV "Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that might depart from me."

The KJV, ASV uses the word "thing". The pronoun "this' is genitive neuter singular.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/12-8.htm

It's my opinion that Paul is not talking about a person, as a false teacher, but a thing. This thing would be a physical ailment as an eye problem or could refer to the persecution he was receiving as a Christian. Either would serve to buffet Paul.

Paul goes on to say " I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." 2 Cor 12:10. Again, it's my opinion that Paul would not take pleasure in false teachers but would take pleasure in physical infirmities and persecution.

 

[childeye]

Actually for me the opposite is true. When I was younger I didn't believe it. Now I do.

Maybe you've become like a child?

 

[john darling]

It's my opinion that Paul is not talking about a person, as a false teacher, but a thing.

You shouldn't have opinions on a spiritual forum. You should have interpretations. :nod
:tongue

 

[MarkT]

When you understand that the word
"Believe" carries the meanings of;
Commit, trust and obey, then it is much easier to understand.

This is the work of God, that you obey Him who He sent.,,

We find this throughout the scriptures in verse's such as..,

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

Jesus said, why do you call Me Lord, but not do what I say. Luke 6:46

Obeying the Gospel command to repent, means we turn to God, which is done by confessing Jesus as Lord.


JLB

Those words have completely different meanings JLB. They don't even agree with each other.

Since when does 'believe' mean 'obey'?

To believe something is to accept it as true. To believe in Jesus, therefore, is to believe he was the Christ and he was sent by God.

Referring to John 6:27, believing in Jesus is to believe this particular teaching is true as well.

 

[MarkT]

People have for centuries given their opinion on what this thorn was in Paul's flesh. The bible does not tell us specifically what it was so people are left to speculate. What it was does not matter for it has no bearing on one's salvation.

2 Cor 12:8 KJV "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me."
2 Cor 12:8 ASV "Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that might depart from me."

The KJV, ASV uses the word "thing". The pronoun "this' is genitive neuter singular.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/12-8.htm

It's my opinion that Paul is not talking about a person, as a false teacher, but a thing. This thing would be a physical ailment as an eye problem or could refer to the persecution he was receiving as a Christian. Either would serve to buffet Paul.

Paul goes on to say " I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." 2 Cor 12:10. Again, it's my opinion that Paul would not take pleasure in false teachers but would take pleasure in physical infirmities and persecution.

The thorn represents a painful disability probably caused by the beatings he received from the Jews for preaching the gospel. So he asks God for the pain to leave him. Paul knows that it is really Satan who doesn't want him to preach, and the pain is really his messenger.

 

[Seabass]

I understand your point seabass. Here's the problem. You talk as if one can have sincere faith in Jesus and yet deny Him. I feel that you should qualify that disobedient faith as a false or insincere faith, rather than claim that faith alone will not make a man repent, confess Christ, or submit to baptism. I don't even like this submit to baptism thing. It sounds like something someone has to do, rather than something Christ does for us.

One cannot have a saving faith in Christ without DOING what Christ said to do in order to be saved.
Christ has already done for mankind by dying on the cross. Mankind in turn must obey/do what Christ said (Heb 5:9; Lk 6:46) to take advantage of Christ's death.

Faith alone is VOID of repentance confession and submitting to baptism:

1) faith alone >>>>>>>>>>>(2) saved>>>>>>>>>>>>>(3) then do works

That initial (1) faith alone is VOID of the works of repentance, confession and baptism so it can never (2) save one.


1) obedient faith>>>>>>>>>(2) saved

Here the (1) obedient faith INCLUDES repentance confession and submitting to baptism therefore does (2) save.

Jn 12:42 it is possible for one to believe in Christ yet not be saved if that belief is void of the works Christ said to do.

 

[Seabass]

John 6:27 is referring to the food Jesus gives us. For it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’' Mt. 4:4 Jesus is the life. John 11:25 He gave us food and water so that we might know the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. For he said, 'this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' John 17:3 Eternal life is not like a gift that comes in a box; eternal life is knowing the Father and Jesus Christ. So how many men know the Father and the Son? His sheep follow him because we know him and we know our Father. By this we know we have eternal life.

In the context Christ just fed thousands with basket full of fish and bread. The next day they come to Jesus to be fed again and that is when Jesus tells them not to labor for the food that perishes but labor for the food that endures unto everlasting life, Jn 6:27. Jesus settles the issue once and for all time that one must work for everlasting life.

 

[Seabass]

You think God is employing us to believe in him? Does the employer not believe in himself that he needs an employee to believe in him for him? Funny argument.

I never said such. My point was to refute the argument some make about Jn 6:27-29 that GOD is the one that does the work of believing. God does not do the work of believing but God is the source of this work that HE has given man to do.

The context shows that believing is a work that man is to do to be saved. Of course this does not jibe with the faith only theology so those that adhere to that theology try to figure a way to either make believing NOT a work or have God do that work instead of man.

No. Whether it is work we do or work God does, either way it is the work of God, according to John 6:28-29 You maybe doing it, but it is the work of God. We are his work. Eph. 2:10

God does not do the work of believing. God gave that work to ma to do and since believing is a work that means works are necessary for one to have everlasting life. Again that does not jibe with the faith only theology so those that adhere to that theology try to take that work from man and give it to God..just as you are trying to do above. God does not have the onus upon Him to do the work of believing for man. If that were the case then God becomes morally culpable for all the unbelievers that are lost due to God's failure to work belief in them.

It's inherent in the question, "What must we do to be doing the works of God?" And Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.' Otherwise why call it the work of God? Why relate believing to the work of God if it is not the work of God?

Again, it's the work of God in that God is the genitive, the source of the work. The work comes from God and given to man to do for God has no need to do the work of believing to be saved.


Jn 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

The people asked Jesus what work shall WE do that WE work the works of God.

Jn 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Again, they just asked what work of God are WE to do, they did not ask what work God would do for them. Jesus said this the work of God, that YOU believe. Jesus said YOU do this work of believing. Jesus did NOT say do nothing while God does this work of believing for you.

And it was also Paul's understanding that we believe according to the working of his great might. Ephesians 1:19 'and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might.'

So Paul's understanding is consistent with Jesus' teaching, and that is my understanding as well.

Paul did not say God does the work of believing for men. Again, that idea puts moral culpability upon God for those that are unbelievers and lost for failing to do this work for them.

Paul is talking about the power of God working for those who already believe not God doing the work of believing for men. Paul is wanting those who believe to know about the power of God that was used in bringing about their salvation:

Eph 1:18,19:
In this context, Paul wants those who believe to have the "eyes of their understanding enlightened" about
1) the hope of his calling
2) the riches of God's glory for the Saints
3) the greatness of God's power that saved them from their sins was the same power that raised Christ from the dead.

Nothing in the context at all about God doing the work of believing for men.

I think we believe because God wills it. He drew us to Jesus (perhaps belief is a manifestation of God drawing us to his Son) and he is working in us. He has us in his hand, and he won't let us fall into unbelief.

So those that do not believe and therefore lost are so for God willed it? No.
Jn 6:45 God draws men by His word, the bible when men are taught, hear and learn, then men come to Christ.

Paul preached the gospel. That was his work. Obviously Paul is not talking about believing here.

I quoted 1 Cor 16:10 for it speaks of Timothy and Paul who "worketh the work of the Lord".
This phrase means Timothy and Paul did the work, not the Lord doing the work for them while they sat and did nothing.
Those that believe are also working the work of the Lord, not the Lord doing the work of believing for me while I sit and do nothing.

It's not a command at all. Whoever heard of anyone commanding someone to believe? You see a command; I see an answer to a question. If Jailer was meant to believe, if it was God's will, then he would believe.

All the resources I have available to me show that the verb "believe" in Acts 16:31 is in the imperative mood, a command. The imperative mood implies that the jailer had the ability, responsibility and accountability to believe. God does not randomly choose among men which ones He will do the work of believing for while leaving the rest to be lost. Such an idea puts moral culpability upon God for failing to work belief in those that are lost due to unbelief. It's not God's will men not believe and be lost.

In verses as Rom 10:17; Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mark 16:16 God has put the onus, responsibility, accountability upon MAN to hear, believe, repent confess and submit to baptism. Those that do not do these things then the culpability is upon them and NOT upon God. You are trying to take the onus God has put upon man to do these things and throw them all back upon God as if God has the onus, obligation, responsibility to see to it that man hears believes repents confesses and submits to baptism

You can exhort men to repent. You can warn the wicked. But you can't make men believe. Paul wrote, "For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Ro. 10:10

Acts 2:38 men are COMMANDED to repent so the onus is upon man to do this work and not upon God to do this work for men.

So who gave us this believing heart? Was it not God? Did God not create the heart as well as the body? Some hearts he hardens so that they do not believe.

"Therefore they could not believe. For Isaiah again said,

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.” John 12:39-40

So how can you say belief is not a work of God?

Rom 10:10 belief comes from the heart of man, not something God does for men.

Again, belief is a work of God that God has given to man to do. The work of believing did not come from the mind of men but from God.
Again Jn 6:28 the people asked what work WE DO that WE work the work of God. The work of God Jesus gave the people to do is that YOU BELEIVE and not that God does this work for you.

 

[Seabass]

God can save anyone he wants to save, but corrupt minded men continue to oppose the truth, and they continue to do evil and abominable deeds. For example, God said, “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba′al.” Romans 11:4 Will they save themselves or will God save them?

You might think belief is your work, but really it was and it is God's work all along. Thank God for his work/help. He did what we could not and can not do on our own.
Psalm 146:5
Happy is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God,

God has made promises to save those that obey Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon those that "obey not 2" Thess 1:8.
God cannot lie and break His promises and "save anyone he wants to save" but will keep His promises and save only those that obey.

Man's role in his own salvation is to obey Christ Heb 5:9. So those that choose to obey are in that sense saving themselves:
Acts 2:40
1 Tim 4:16
2 Cor 7:1
1 Pet 1:22
Phil 2:12
James 4:8

 

[Seabass]

You shouldn't have opinions on a spiritual forum. You should have interpretations. :nod
:tongue

an "opinionated interpretation"

 

[smaller]

People have for centuries given their opinion on what this thorn was in Paul's flesh. The bible does not tell us specifically what it was so people are left to speculate. What it was does not matter for it has no bearing on one's salvation.

2 Cor 12:8 KJV "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me."
2 Cor 12:8 ASV "Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that might depart from me."

The KJV, ASV uses the word "thing". The pronoun "this' is genitive neuter singular.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/12-8.htm

It's my opinion that Paul is not talking about a person, as a false teacher, but a thing. This thing would be a physical ailment as an eye problem or could refer to the persecution he was receiving as a Christian. Either would serve to buffet Paul.

Paul goes on to say " I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." 2 Cor 12:10. Again, it's my opinion that Paul would not take pleasure in false teachers but would take pleasure in physical infirmities and persecution.

When Paul said he had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, that's what it was, no opinion required to change the statement into anything else.

Paul also had "evil present" with him, Romans 7:21, sin indwelling his flesh, which sin btw is "of the devil" 1 John 3:8, had temptation in his flesh, Gal. 4:14 and was the chief of sinners, after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15.

In the LIGHT of Paul's disclosures it's not difficult to connect the dots on this matter, that it was in fact a messenger of Satan. Paul also discourses this same matter in other scriptures, Romans 9:19-23 and 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Once anyone figures out the "vessel of dishonor" is the messenger of Satan it makes for a perfect presentation. The notion that there is obedience from indwelling sin or a messenger of Satan isn't even on the table, if Paul is viewed how he presented himself, and this is the fulcrum of salvation by faith through grace and not of ourselves.

As to your insistence on performances, this performance after salvation doesn't change, and in fact it can get worse:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This two fold state is identically matched by Paul, again, here, in Galatians:

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

and here:

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The short lesson in performance insistences of any kind is this: Indwelling sin doesn't obey, and can't obey, and isn't changed into anything else other than what it factually is, indwelling sin, which is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Any believer can "test" this principle in "real time" today simply by honest examinations of their own "thoughts" just as Paul did in Romans 7:7-13 and they WILL find indwelling sin working adversely against the law in various temptations and lusts. An honest believer WILL COME to an honest conclusion just as Paul did.

 

[Seabass]

When Paul said he had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, that's what it was, no opinion required to change the statement into anything else.

Paul also had "evil present" with him, Romans 7:21, sin indwelling his flesh, which sin btw is "of the devil" 1 John 3:8, had temptation in his flesh, Gal. 4:14 and was the chief of sinners, after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15.

In the LIGHT of Paul's disclosures it's not difficult to connect the dots on this matter, that it was in fact a messenger of Satan. Paul also discourses this same matter in other scriptures, Romans 9:19-23 and 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Once anyone figures out the "vessel of dishonor" is the messenger of Satan it makes for a perfect presentation. The notion that there is obedience from indwelling sin or a messenger of Satan isn't even on the table, if Paul is viewed how he presented himself, and this is the fulcrum of salvation by faith through grace and not of ourselves.

As to your insistence on performances, this performance after salvation doesn't change, and in fact it can get worse:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This two fold state is identically matched by Paul, again, here, in Galatians:

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

and here:

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The short lesson in performance insistences of any kind is this: Indwelling sin doesn't obey, and can't obey, and isn't changed into anything else other than what it factually is, indwelling sin, which is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Any believer can "test" this principle in "real time" today simply by honest examinations of their own "thoughts" just as Paul did in Romans 7:7-13 and they WILL find indwelling sin working adversely against the law in various temptations and lusts. An honest believer WILL COME to an honest conclusion just as Paul did.

Again, since the bible does not specifically tell us what the thorn in the side was, all one can do is merely speculate. No different from those who speculate what Christ wrote on the ground with His finger.

Paul did not have sin living in him...Rom 6:2 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Those that are Christians are dead unto sin.

In Romans chapter 7 Paul is warning the Jews, to whom he was writing, about returning back unto the OT law. That OT law made complete justification impossible and only allowed for flawless law keeping to be completely justified. In Rom 7:13-24 Paul is speaking about himself back when he was Saul and trying to keep that OT law flawlessly and the frustration that caused. Under the OT law Saul/Paul did have sin living in him for there was no compete justification from sin under that OT law. Yet in chapter 8 Paul then contrasts living under that Ot law to being a Christian who is "now" in Christ where there is no condemnation Rom 8:1.

 

[childeye]

One cannot have a saving faith in Christ without DOING what Christ said to do in order to be saved.

I have never heard anyone who claims to be a Christian say they should not do what Christ said. If you're exhorting us to do those things Christ says to do, I have no problem with that. I believe we accomplish that by persevering in Love. Even that Love that is seen on the cross. John 13:34. But if you're saying that we no longer have Satan to deal with, then I do have a problem with that.

 

[Seabass]

I have never heard anyone who claims to be a Christian say they should not do what Christ said. If you're exhorting us to do those things Christ says to do, I have no problem with that. I believe we accomplish that by persevering in Love. Even that Love that is seen on the cross. John 13:34. But if you're saying that we no longer have Satan to deal with, then I do have a problem with that.

One who is NOT a Christian must do what Christ said in order to become a Christian.
One who is ALREADY a Christian must continue doing the works of Christ (Rev 2:26) to overcome.
Faith only is not doing what Christ said to BECOME a Christian.

 

[childeye]

One who is NOT a Christian must do what Christ said in order to become a Christian.
One who is ALREADY a Christian must continue doing the works of Christ (Rev 2:26) to overcome.
Faith only is not doing what Christ said to BECOME a Christian.

I don't know what faith means to you. To me it means to believe that Love is Eternal. Therefore the battle is to not give up on believing that. If we're not doing the things that Love requires, then we have stopped believing.

 

[MarkT]

I never said such. My point was to refute the argument some make about Jn 6:27-29 that GOD is the one that does the work of believing. God does not do the work of believing but God is the source of this work that HE has given man to do.

The context shows that believing is a work that man is to do to be saved. Of course this does not jibe with the faith only theology so those that adhere to that theology try to figure a way to either make believing NOT a work or have God do that work instead of man.

You're doing the same thing Seabass. The reason why you don't understand what I am saying is it doesn't fit your theology.

Jesus did not say, 'This is the work of man'. He said, 'This is the work of God'.

Look at it from first principles. The sower sows the good seed, the seed falls on the heart, the heart believes. Who is the sower? The sower is the Son of man. Mt. 13:37 Who is the Son of man? The Son of man is Jesus. Didn't Jesus say he could only do what he saw the Father doing?

John 5:19
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.

Sowing seed is work isn't it? So, who is the true sower? The true sower is the Father. Who is the Father? The Father is the true God.

So how can you say believing is not his work? How can you say it is not the work of God?

Believing is the work of God.

 

[MarkT]

Nothing in the context at all about God doing the work of believing for men.

I never said anything about God doing the believing for men. I don't necessarily believe the opposite of your explanation of the employer and the employee. [Why would I answer you according to your folly? Let's keep it civil. WIP]