Would Hitler been saved if he turned into Jesus?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

OK, a 'bold assertion' - that's fair enough. It is doubtless influenced by my hope for fair-play to all his victims.

Salvation isn't about "fair play" relative to others. It is about repentance, and as Jesus said, "Truly, truly I say to you, any man who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47). Repentance is impossible without belief. Without belief, there is no feeling of a need to repent. Therefore, in the hypothetical context, if Hitler repents, he's saved, as he has trusted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. I'm talking about true, heartfelt repentance, not the kind of remorse Judas felt, which was regret for being wrong about his plot to force Jesus to exercise His power, not a "turning away" as is described by the Koine Greek word for repentance,metanoia.

 

[Blev]

By 'Christian', in my context, I mean one who lived/lives in a Christian community (and refusing to associate himself/herself with Islam etc) and probably not born again (according to John 3:16)

There are alot of people who try to live a Christian life in their own strength. They are self righteous. They believe with their head what is taught is right, but that is just mental assent. That does not save a person because no one can be 'good enough' or is righteous enough in themselves to be saved. The church is full of them and I was one. They know all about Jesus but do not know Him personally. It's completely different to believe in your heart as the Bible mentions in Romans 10:9-10. When they are changed, the Lord comes to live inside them and they can merely yield to Jesus letting Him live through them, as opposed to just trying to live it in themselves. See the difference?

 

[Nick]

My meaning was that even if he truly repented, I 'really doubt' he would have been saved.

OK, a 'bold assertion' - that's fair enough. It is doubtless influenced by my hope for fair-play to all his victims. I may not be right but I can still, nevertheless, 'really doubt it' - which is all I said.

I don't think you can fairly call my 'doubt' a 'judgement' - do you? It is not as if I was making an unequivocal statement.

But let's not make the mistake of thinking that any human being - including those who are victims of the Holocaust - are good enough for God. No-one deserves to be in a relationship with God, regardless of their status on earth. There's a lyric by Relient K that says "the beauty of Grace is that it makes life no fair."

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all can be saved through repentance.

 

[Aardverk]

Aardverk,

Great history lesson. But what we also see is how Rome became a power house abusing the authority it had. I believe this is one reason why our forefathers wrote what they wrote in regard to the separation of church and state. In short, the church has no business being in political power...

I certainly agree that the 'Holy Roman Empire' was corrupt, downright wicked even. I also agree that the church and the state must be separate to ensure freedom to grow, develop and change our minds. The original 'pilgrims' were very well aware of religious persecution and the horrors it brings.

The fact that Christianity changed does not automatically mean that what 'we' believe today is automatically right or that we do not, to a lesser extent, fall into the same old ways of trying to impose our beliefs on others. If we have closed minds it is difficult to see the error of our ways and change/improvement is very difficult to introduce. We should therefore, in my opinion, never be too cock-sure of ourselves on religious matters.

Someone above gave the example of abolishing slavery and introducing equality and votes for women - let me add racial equality and freedom of speech and freedom of religion! None of these changes came about easily or peaceably and we risk fooling ourselves if we assume that our individual beliefs are absolutely right and must never be changed. Each of the people who objected to those changes thought they were right. I think most of us now realize that the objectors were quite wrong. A few obviously won't.

I am very happy for everyone to believe as they wish but not for any one of us, or any group of us, to impose our beliefs on anyone else. That does not mean that we can not discuss our differences but discussion with closed minds rapidly becomes rather difficult. We should at least be able to recognize that the 200 major Christian denominations exist because we all believe different things. We can't all be right so it is highly likely that all of us are wrong about some of our beliefs. For someone to dismiss the possibility of any error would seem like extreme arrogance to me.

 

[Aardverk]

So, God should only forgive and grant salvation based on what one person has done to other people? I don't remember seeing that kind of condition put on forgiveness and salvation in the Bible.

Take note: I never said what God should or should not do - did I? You are reading things into my words that I never said.

There is however the concept of purgatory/limbo which I hope gets used for the wicked people who repent. This time, please note that I said 'hope', not 'should'.

 

[Aardverk]

Salvation isn't about "fair play" relative to others. It is about repentance.......

Please see my comment above about purgatory/limbo.

 

[Aardverk]

If he wasn't born-again, he wasn't Christian.

I can think of about 10 billion Christians who would disagree with you but hey, what does their opinion count for?

 

[Nick]

I can think of about 10 billion Christians who would disagree with you but hey, what does their opinion count for?

Christians are those who repent. Repentance is being born-again, as we take off the old self and put on the new.

 

[Blev]

Christians are those who repent. Repentance is being born-again, as we take off the old self and put on the new.

Repent - when a person turns from sin and turns to Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

I certainly agree that the 'Holy Roman Empire' was corrupt, downright wicked even. I also agree that the church and the state must be separate to ensure freedom to grow, develop and change our minds. The original 'pilgrims' were very well aware of religious persecution and the horrors it brings.

The fact that Christianity changed does not automatically mean that what 'we' believe today is automatically right or that we do not, to a lesser extent, fall into the same old ways of trying to impose our beliefs on others. If we have closed minds it is difficult to see the error of our ways and change/improvement is very difficult to introduce. We should therefore, in my opinion, never be too cock-sure of ourselves on religious matters.

Someone above gave the example of abolishing slavery and introducing equality and votes for women - let me add racial equality and freedom of speech and freedom of religion! None of these changes came about easily or peaceably and we risk fooling ourselves if we assume that our individual beliefs are absolutely right and must never be changed. Each of the people who objected to those changes thought they were right. I think most of us now realize that the objectors were quite wrong. A few obviously won't.

I am very happy for everyone to believe as they wish but not for any one of us, or any group of us, to impose our beliefs on anyone else. That does not mean that we can not discuss our differences but discussion with closed minds rapidly becomes rather difficult. We should at least be able to recognize that the 200 major Christian denominations exist because we all believe different things. We can't all be right so it is highly likely that all of us are wrong about some of our beliefs. For someone to dismiss the possibility of any error would seem like extreme arrogance to me.

I actually agree with what you're saying. Although I do look at "Christianity" a little bit differently.

When I look at Christianity, I see it based on Christ in relationship with people, not institutions. The problem with any institution is that it serves itself and it gives way to corruption and from there, it is only a matter of time before it crumbles. We see this very clearly within historical "Christianity". Anyway, institutions don't do wrong things, people within institutions do. When those people have a cloak (institution) to hide in... well, history does have a way of repeating itself now doesn't it?

Jesus said, "Upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail". I'm paraphrasing of course. There will always be a remnant of the Church that represents Christ, and not the institution that promotes systemic sin.

As far as Hitler being a "Christian".... Jesus did say that there would be wolves within the fold. From where we stand, it should be pretty easy to spot that Hitler was a wolf and was never part of the fold. His fruit bears testimony to that.

 

[Aardverk]

I actually agree with what you're saying. Although I do look at "Christianity" a little bit differently.

As you say, we seem to be in agreement.

It is the people who are domineering and angrily adamant that they are right and others are wrong that disturb me. We can all hold different opinions, be they right or wrong, as long as we still live in peace with those who hold different opinions without breaking man's laws.

Jesus was tolerant of 'difference' and of those with unorthodox behavior but not with those who sought to dominate or take advantage of others. I find that a good principle to try to live by - be it religion, politics, lifestyle or even something as simple as musical taste. :guitar

 

[Knotical]

Take note: I never said what God should or should not do - did I? You are reading things into my words that I never said.

There is however the concept of purgatory/limbo which I hope gets used for the wicked people who repent. This time, please note that I said 'hope', not 'should'.

For one thing, there is no such place as "purgatory" or "limbo". Why would you hope that specific individuals would be excluded from any kind of salvation? I would think you would hope that they would be able to be saved regardless of what they have done in their past as long as they are genuinely repentant and ask forgiveness for their past sins.

Remember, it is the Holy Spirit that brings an individual to the place where they will repent and ask forgiveness.

 

[Aardverk]

For one thing, there is no such place as "purgatory" or "limbo".

But billions of people believe that there is - and who are we to disagree?

Why would you hope that specific individuals would be excluded from any kind of salvation?

You obviously need to look up the concept of limbo and that's twice I have said concept of limbo. :yes

I would think you would hope that they would be able to be saved regardless of what they have done in their past as long as they are genuinely repentant and ask forgiveness for their past sins.

Then you would be wrong. I am not that tolerant of genocidal maniacs or even of common or garden mass-murderers.

 

[Knotical]

But billions of people believe that there is - and who are we to disagree?

Because there is no biblical support for it

You obviously need to look up the concept of limbo and that's twice I have said concept of limbo. :yes

I do understand the concept, but also know it is just a concept.

Then you would be wrong. I am not that tolerant of genocidal maniacs or even of common or garden mass-murderers.

This is unfortunate, but I guess this is why God is who He is and it is in His nature to forgive those who are truly repentant and ask Him for it.

 

[Aardverk]

Because there is no biblical support for it

True, but no mention of a subject in the Bible doesn't mean it isn't true. A few million other subjects are not covered either and that doesn't mean they are any less true. Interestingly, some people do not believe in hell either; even though it does get a mention now and again.

Perhaps I am still influenced by my long rejected Catholic roots but I can't see anything wrong with a 'holding area' for those who have committed atrocities. I quite like the idea of a penance fitting to the sin.

We all (I hope) have a sense of fair-play. If we are made in God's image, perhaps that laudable instinct is inherited from God. If so, I would not be at all surprised if there was a 'holding area' for some of us. :gah

 

[Spring Waters]

No, he wasn't, but one has to remember that atheists are quick to point out what they perceive are good reasons for not believing in Christ and Hitler is often used. For all the reason they claim to have, this is at least one instance where they throw reason out the window. Hence the issue with using an atheist site to promote the utterly false idea that Hitler was a Christian.

The atheist site isn't promoting anything. The atheist site is posting information relative to what Hitler himself claimed for the record. It is not an atheist creation as you imply.
And of all the atheists I know not one has ever claimed they are atheist because of the example Hitler provided as a Theist/Christian. In fact, implying that in the first portion of your reply utterly contradicts the later half wherein you imply the atheist site is promoting the utterly false idea that Hitler was a Christian.

If atheists, as you claim, and how many atheists do you know by the way? If atheists claim part of the cause for their disbelief is Hitlers example of Christianity how on earth can an atheist site then promote an utterly false idea about Hitler's Christianity?

No, he was not a Christian and a Christian ought to know this. Believing oneself to be a Christian does not mean that that is the case.

I'd think a Christian would have the guts not to imply to another that they are not Christian, simply because another Christian doesn't agree with their point of view.

I never suggested there was.

Ah, then your words mean nothing. Got it.

If you want to correct ignorance of Hitler's beliefs, go to a proper source so that it will also correct the ignorance that Hitler was a Christian.

It wasn't my site. That Hitler was a Christian, self professed in his own writings, is something the man said himself and of himself. Those who can't accept the truth of that aren't my responsibility.

It very much is not an example of Godly fruit or Christianity. I find it highly disturbing, to put it mildly, that someone claiming to be a Christian would think otherwise.

I find it highly disturbing that you repeatedly imply judgment against the status of my faith. God forgive you.

 

[stovebolts]

True, but no mention of a subject in the Bible doesn't mean it isn't true. A few million other subjects are not covered either and that doesn't mean they are any less true. Interestingly, some people do not believe in hell either; even though it does get a mention now and again.

Perhaps I am still influenced by my long rejected Catholic roots but I can't see anything wrong with a 'holding area' for those who have committed atrocities. I quite like the idea of a penance fitting to the sin.

We all (I hope) have a sense of fair-play. If we are made in God's image, perhaps that laudable instinct is inherited from God. If so, I would not be at all surprised if there was a 'holding area' for some of us. :gah

The idea of purgatory isn't a catholic idea. It's Jewish. BTW, Jesus looked at Gehenna a lot differently than we do today. Just saying.

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380844/jewish/Straight-Path-to-Heaven-123.htm

From this we can understand a statement of the Sages that stipulates that a righteous person passing through Gehinom can take out some souls with himself. After the righteous person enclothes himself with these souls, then "they shall go from strength to strength" (ibid.), the numerical value of which equals "Etz HaChaim" [Hebrew for "Tree of Life" = 233]. To the Tree of Life goes the soul of the righteous with these clothes.

This always reminded me of 1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Some would link 1 Peter 3:18-19 with Matthew 5:25-26

 

[Aardverk]

The idea of purgatory isn't a catholic idea. It's Jewish. BTW, Jesus looked at Gehenna a lot differently than we do today. Just saying.

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380844/jewish/Straight-Path-to-Heaven-123.htm From this we can understand a statement of the Sages that stipulates that a righteous person passing through Gehinom can take out some souls with himself. After the righteous person enclothes himself with these souls, then "they shall go from strength to strength" (ibid.), ..........

What a brilliant idea. You leave the villain in Gehenna/Purgatory/Limbo until enough people feel sorry for them and help them on their way to heaven! I do hope God thought of that one first . Thanks Mr Bolts. ;)

 

[stovebolts]

What a brilliant idea. You leave the villain in Gehenna/Purgatory/Limbo until enough people feel sorry for them and help them on their way to heaven! I do hope God thought of that one first . Thanks Mr Bolts. ;)

My, aren't you in a spruce mood this morning! errr, or was that last night? Now then, how am I to respond to that? Am I to correct what appears to me as your blatant misunderstandings that are glaringly apparent, or do I guard my responses so that they simply minimize further distortions or misunderstandings on your part?

That's a tough one. So let me leave you with this. I would encourage you to do a bit more study on what the Catholics actually believe about both purgatory and Limbo, and then find out what the Jews believe about Gehenna and how that ties into the early church. You will find no villain in either.

I do hope your day goes well!

 

[Aardverk]

....Now then, how am I to respond to that? Am I to correct what appears to me as your blatant misunderstandings that are glaringly apparent, or do I guard my responses so that they simply minimize further distortions or misunderstandings on your part?

That's a tough one. So let me leave you with this. I would encourage you to do a bit more study on what the Catholics actually believe about both purgatory and Limbo, and then find out what the Jews believe about Gehenna and how that ties into the early church. You will find no villain in either....

Thank you. I must admit that I am getting a little confused. The more I read about Gehenna, the more clear it becomes that there are at least two different versions; by Midrash at least. :gah Sometimes it is effectively hell and sometimes, effectively Limbo. That contradiction helps explain a little of the confusion but I obviously need to read more - thank you.

I have just read that the limbo version of Gehenna has been translated correctly in Greek & Latin but not English - which could explain why Catholics believe in Limbo. I would like to cross-check that however as it sounds too simple an explanation for my liking. I will read on.

I do at least understand the Catholic position - I was one.