Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[Jethro Bodine]

If your wife has left the faith that tells me she never had a relationship with Jesus.

That's what most people say.
That's what Calvinism--brought into the church in the 1500's--has taught the church to believe.
But her spiritual gift (speaking in tongues) shows she did in fact have a genuine saving relationship with Christ.

So did she lose her ability to speak in tongues or is now stating she wasn't speaking in tongues?

She no longer has any gift of speaking in tongues. She also doesn't really know what was going on during that time when she was able to speak in tongues. She questions the experience now. But that is what happens to people who depart from the faith.
She's an extremely shy, and honest person. I heard her speak in tongues and I know real tongues from fake tongues and hers was the real thing. That shows she me she had a genuine salvation experience, yet she abandoned it when things got tough, just like the 2nd type of soil believer in the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:13). Coming up on 20 years now. I was heartbroken because I knew that most people who depart from the faith do not ever come back.

For it doesn't make sense to me if she thought she spoke in tongues was really from above how she could deny the faith.

It doesn't make any sense to me either.
I've talked to her about it. I asked her how she could deny the faith having had direct observable evidence of the existence of God and the Holy Spirit.

I don't want to go into detail, but I know from talking to her it has nothing to do with whether or not she felt the experience was real. It was about something else that bothered her about Christianity, even though she had accepted the free gift of salvation. It's an issue I personally have settled in my own heart and mind, and and you probably have too, and which keeps us in the faith, but which she never did come to peace with and which has resulted in her not enduring in faith to the very end. There are others like her, just as there are others like us.

I know everyone is not like me but many are. Theology is for all though.

You and I do have something in common that all enduring Christians have and which keeps us from abandoning our faith and trust in our Great High Priest, Jesus. But the sad fact is, there are some Christians who do not have this common element of the faith firmly settled in their hearts, even though they are very much saved, and so they are more prone to have the gospel uprooted from their hearts when trials and troubles come their way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If your name really is Jethro Bodine my bad.

No, that's not my real name.
I don't use my real name because there really are crazy people on line.
The less they know about me the better.
I don't claim to have the gift of the discerning of spirits, but I'm convinced a spirit of murder inhabited another popular on-line forum. Even though some people claimed they were Christians it was clear they were not genuine and wanted me and others who did not agree with them dead. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That is not a denial of Jesus.
It was the remedy for:
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter speaks of the Christian that willfully chooses to forget the things God has given the Christian (2 Pet 1:3-4), blinding themselves to spiritual things becoming lost, fallen. The barren and unfruitful (2 Pet 1:8) are cut off from the Vine (Jn 15:1-8; Mt 13:22). Those Christians that do not remain diligent in making their election sure (2 Pet 1:10; 3:14) will come short of the grace of God (Heb 12:15) as the Jews did (Rom 11:11) being cast off losing their election. Peter is warning Christians about becoming apostates. Their election and receiving grace will be in vain (2 Cor 6:1)

 

[Randy]

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter speaks of the Christian that willfully chooses to forget the things God has given the Christian (2 Pet 1:3-4), blinding themselves to spiritual things becoming lost, fallen. The barren and unfruitful (2 Pet 1:8) are cut off from the Vine (Jn 15:1-8; Mt 13:22). Those Christians that do not remain diligent in making their election sure (2 Pet 1:10; 3:14) will come short of the grace of God (Heb 12:15) as the Jews did (Rom 11:11) being cast off losing their election. Peter is warning Christians about becoming apostates. Their election and receiving grace will be in vain (2 Cor 6:1)

Setting aside those in Israel that were cut off because of unbelief its clear there were issues the Apostles had to deal with outside of Israel with the many different kinds of people receiving the new gospel message. Its clear in Peters and Pauls writings. John appears to draw the line with those who have the spirit in contrast to those who don't.

I am surprised no one has brought up the 7 churches in Revelation.

Perhaps we should remain in Jesus so He remains in us.

 

[Randy]

The difference of people who receive the word. Only 1 out of 3 conditions that believe at all does remain firm and produces a crop. Of course the 4th condition would be those who refuse to believe at any time.
The seed that fell on the good soil produced a crop.
The seed that fell on the ground with thorns was choked no crop.
The seed that fell on the rock had no root.

 

[netchaplain]

What Paul is saying clearly to believers, to born again Christians, who have the ability to “put to death the deeds of the flesh by the the Spirit”, that if they live according to the flesh they will die; ie perish be condemned, eternally damned.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

To me , the clear instruction is in the word "debtors" (v 12). It means we are no longer "dominated" (obligated) by the sin nature to desire after it, and the reason is because the Spirit now enables us to desire after Him (live after the Spirit).

The phrase "if you live according to the flesh" describes one who is still unregenerate, because the regenerate is one living after the Spirit. This is the same "work" that the Father instills the desire after "His good pleasure." I don't see any sense in conceiving that one in whom the Spirit is causing to be holy would desire to be a sinner again, only hypocrites (apostates) falsely portray faith. I think the sense in v 12 is that if you live according to the sin nature, it manifests you're still under its "reign" and "dominance" or "debt" (6:12, 14 - 12 is a command but 14 is a promise).

Thankfully God does not allow believers to be truly deceived, because the hypocrite's sin always becomes manifested when it "surly finds you out" (Num 32:23).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Setting aside those in Israel that were cut off because of unbelief its clear there were issues the Apostles had to deal with outside of Israel with the many different kinds of people receiving the new gospel message. Its clear in Peters and Pauls writings. John appears to draw the line with those who have the spirit in contrast to those who don't.

I am surprised no one has brought up the 7 churches in Revelation.

Perhaps we should remain in Jesus so He remains in us.

The fact fleshly Israel was cut off proves OSAS wrong.

There have been those that tried to use Eph 1:13 to "prove" OSAS but the fact the church at Ephesus a few years later left Christ and were fallen (Rev 2:1-5) also proves OSAS wrong.

 

[Randy]

I do NOT believe these people had the Spirit of Christ in them.
Ref 2 Peter 2

Clearly there is importance especially among the young to keep the right fellowship so as not to be misled. So that you can strengthen and encourage one another. See that you are not alone and you share the same faith as others. If you desire college I suggest a Christian college.

Consider others more important them yourselves. Even the Lord Himself overcame the world as a servant.

Love others as Jesus loved. - You have everything you need to live a Godly life. Christ in you.

 

[Randy]

The fact fleshly Israel was cut off proves OSAS wrong.

There have been those that tried to use Eph 1:13 to "prove" OSAS but the fact the church at Ephesus a few years later left Christ and were fallen (Rev 2:1-5) also proves OSAS wrong.

Those that were cutoff were cutoff because of unbelief.
God made a new covenant because they broke the covenant God had made with their forefathers.

Even so God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous even among the Israelite's and stated the soul that sins will die. No one has ever been saved by heritage alone. The law had curses and blessings. And in a manner speaking so does the gospel message for Gods wrath for those who refuse to repent and believe is in that message.

God is able to keep people safe by His grace for He stated I have reserved for myself 7000 who have not bowed to Baal.

The same Peter who issued all those warnings also wrote we are shielded by Gods power through faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To me , the clear instruction is in the word "debtors" (v 12). It means we are no longer "dominated" (obligated) by the sin nature to desire after it, and the reason is because the Spirit now enables us to desire after Him (live after the Spirit).

The phrase "if you live according to the flesh" describes one who is still unregenerate, because the regenerate is one living after the Spirit. This is the same "work" that the Father instills the desire after "His good pleasure." I don't see any sense in conceiving that one in whom the Spirit is causing to be holy would desire to be a sinner again, only hypocrites (apostates) falsely portray faith. I think the sense in v 12 is that if you live according to the sin nature, it manifests you're still under its "reign" and "dominance" or "debt" (6:12, 14 - 12 is a command but 14 is a promise).

Thankfully God does not allow believers to be truly deceived, because the hypocrite's sin always becomes manifested when it "surly finds you out" (Num 32:23).

This entirely nullifies the plain and clear words of Hebrews 10.
That is what I detest about OSAS doctrine.
It strains to invent these ways to make OSAS true, no matter the cost.
Calvinism (where OSAS comes from) is an over-thought, complicated doctrine created by Calvin.
And the doctrine, IMO, that the enemy is using to destroy the church in these end times in accordance with prophecy.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Those that were cutoff were cutoff because of unbelief.
God made a new covenant because they broke the covenant God had made with their forefathers.

Even so God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous even among the Israelite's and stated the soul that sins will die. No one has ever been saved by heritage alone. The law had curses and blessings. And in a manner speaking so does the gospel message for Gods wrath for those who refuse to repent and believe is in that message.

God is able to keep people safe by His grace for He stated I have reserved for myself 7000 who have not bowed to Baal.

The same Peter who issued all those warnings also wrote we are shielded by Gods power through faith.

If OSAS were true, then those Jews would have never become lost.

The ones God reserved were the ones who OBEYED Him by not bowing to Baal. Those who obey Christ's word become saved (Heb 5:9) and will remain saved as long as they conditionally continue to obey Christ's word (Jn 8:31). Those who disobey Christ turning from Him become lost Jn 6:66-67.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The same Peter who issued all those warnings also wrote we are shielded by Gods power through faith.

"Through faith"

No more faith - no more shield of God's protection.

 

[netchaplain]

The 'sanctified' person in the passage is defined as a saved person:
"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." - Hebrews 10:10

"14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14

These 2 passages are in reference to believers, not to those who merely profess to be believers.

"29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:29

The Son of God would hypothetically be “trodden underfoot,” if it were possible for one to believe the knowledge of the truth (Gospel of Christ) and continue to willfully sin as before conversion. But this is a supposition (if) of something that is impossible, because believers do not sin willfully, which is the point of Hebrews 10:26-29 and 6:4-6.

This is what Paul means that when he sins (which I’m certain was quite minimal in frequency and in severity) it’s not him doing it willfully (“I allow not”). Chapter 7 from verse 14 onward displays the old and new natures of Paul after his conversion, finishing with, “So then with the mind I myself (in the new man) serve the law of God; but with the flesh (old man) the law of sin” (v 25).

This also explains what Paul meant by being a “captive” (7:23). When he sins it’s like one who does it against the desire and will, which is unlike before conversion when it was his desire to sin—being still sin-dominated before regeneration. The reason why believers no longer desire to sin is because they “are not in the flesh” (i.e. after the sin nature – Ro 8:9).

 

[netchaplain]

And the doctrine, IMO, that the enemy is using to destroy the church in these end times in accordance with prophecy.

I believe only those who never choose to believe "the knowledge of the truth" will be deceived (destroyed - not suspecting any single person of this but making a general statement).

 

[JLB]

To me , the clear instruction is in the word "debtors" (v 12). It means we are no longer "dominated" (obligated) by the sin nature to desire after it, and the reason is because the Spirit now enables us to desire after Him (live after the Spirit).

Agreed. The Spirit gives us the power and desire to do God’s will.

 

[JLB]

The phrase "if you live according to the flesh" describes one who is still unregenerate,

Ok, so show me in this passage where that idea comes from.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• Therefore, brethren, we are debtors... Paul is addressing brothers in Christ and placing himself among the narrative.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

Again, Paul is plainly addressing brethren and places himself in this narrative concerning us not living according to the flesh, and gives the consequences for doing so... you will die.


Here is the choice brothers in Christ must make; Christians are the only people who have the ability to live according to the Spirit.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
  but
• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

“but” shows us the choice.


Paul is speaking to regenerated people sir.



JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Ok, so show me in this passage where that idea comes from.

One cannot live after the Spirit and after the flesh, and only those reborn after the Spirit are regenerated. Living after the flesh manifests that one has yet to be born of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

only those reborn after the Spirit are regenerated.

Yes. That’s what I said.


Only those who are born again and have the Spirit can live according to the Spirit.

 

[netchaplain]

Yes. That’s what I said.


Only those who are born again and have the Spirit can live according to the Spirit.

Did I misunderstand your question?

 

[JLB]

Living after the flesh manifests that one has yet to be born of the Spirit.

You keep saying this but it’s very evident it’s not true.

Paul is plainly talking to Christians, brothers, those who have the Spirit. Paul says “if” you live according to the flesh you will die, BUT if you live according to the Spirit you will live.


If people are unregenerate then they need to hear the Gospel.


This letter is to the Church and warns these born again Christians who have physical bodies, as well as a born again nature with the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them, that they must live their lives according to the leading of the Spirit within them, rather than the lustful desires of their physical bodies.


I know you understand that born again Christians have physical bodies? Right?

Please stop trying to convince everyone that born again Christians don’t have a physical body, the same exact physical body that craved sinful activities before you were born again.

The same physical body you once had before you were saved is the same exact physical body you have now that you are saved, and it still wants the same things it did before you were saved.


Each of us as born again Christians has the choice to give in to the lustful desires of the flesh, or be led by the Spirit to live in righteousness, peace and love.


What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

We have the choice to obey sin, and eventually become a slave to sin, or obey the Spirit and become a slave to righteousness.


I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19


It’s a choice we all must make as Christians.


Walk according to the Spirit or walk according to the flesh.




JLB