You can be ONCE SAVED and ALWAYS SAVED!

[Free]

It seems that you are asking people to predict the future. No one knows whether they will have "sincere faith in Jesus" in the distant future. A person is saved only to the degree that they CONTINUE in walking in faith. Thus, the constant refrain from Scriptures to PERSEVERE. Scripture clearly has the likes of Paul exhorting Christians to continue to persevere in their walk in Christ. This implies the possibility of NOT walking in Christ (as Peter makes explicit in his second letter). There is no point in such a command if we "already know we are saved once and for all time"...

Regards

Agreed. There are numerous passages in Scripture which make such statements.

 

[Free]

If someone has genuinely been born again and been saved, yet turrned their back on Jesus and renounced Jesus and went from a born again saved Christian to being lost, then Jesus LIED when He said:

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

So if Jesus lied about that, then Jesus cannot be trusted with anything He said! But the truth is, Jesus NEVER LIED, so those people who claim they reject Christ has never come to Christ to begin with, even if they claim they had, they were NEVER SEALED and BORN AGAIN in the first place!

Or you are just putting a meaning into that text which isn't there.

Don't forget, a lot of people claim to have been a Christian, yet they never were..for example Italian Mafia Members etc.

Yes, of course, but I don't think those are the type of people that I have in view here. These are friends, neighbors, family, etc., who made a conscious decision to follow Christ as their Lord, and for some reason ended up leaving.

Read the parable of the Sower.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

So you are able to judge their hearts?

Aren't you judging their hearts? You claim they were born again Christians, but how can you be sure when you cannot see the depth of their hearts?

I know they were never sealed and born again because Jesus said NOBODY CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF HIS HANDS AND THAT THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, so if someone rejects Christ, that means they never genuinely accepted Him in the first place!

I have met many poeple who tell me they are Christian, but they live a life of crime and hurt and evil and don't care. I even knew a drug dealer who used to have people shot and killed, yet he told me and everyone he was a Christian and even wore a cross around his neck. But I ask you, was he really a sealed and born again Christian?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Or you are just putting a meaning into that text which isn't there...

So you indicate that my interpetation of John 10:28 is wrong, so can you please explain to me what Jesus meant when he said: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Thank you I look forward to your reply.

By the way, the Parable of the Sower does NOT teach that a true believer can lose their salvation!!! The purpose of the parable was to illustrate the different heart responses to the proclamation of the Word of God and the kind of "soil" that produces fruit. As an illustration, it cannot "override" other Scriptures and determine or define doctrine. Only doctrinal points which are clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture should be "seen" in Biblical illustrations!

 

[John Zain]

1 John contains several examples of behaviour by which we may know who are not Christians in our midst (church/fellowship) despite their profession to be saved.

Sure, some peoples' conditions are obviously discerned ... but they are not everybody.
Some hide (purposely or not) their true spiritual condition very well indeed.

 

[John Zain]

It seems that you are asking people to predict the future.
No one knows whether they will have "sincere faith in Jesus" in the distant future.
A person is saved only to the degree that they CONTINUE in walking in faith. Thus, the constant refrain from Scriptures to PERSEVERE. Scripture clearly has the likes of Paul exhorting Christians to continue to persevere in their walk in Christ. This implies the possibility of NOT walking in Christ (as Peter makes explicit in his second letter). There is no point in such a command if we "already know we are saved once and for all time"...

Yes, this has been a point of mine for 20 years or so.
Suppose a person "knows" for sure via the Holy Spirit that they are saved.
Did the Spirit actually CLEARLY PROMISE salvation to this person?
If this is the case, then I'm fine with their personal "Once saved, always saved" claim.

But, for everyone else ...
who knows what might derail their spiritual journey to cause them to fall away?
Sorry.

 

[Free]

Aren't you judging their hearts? You claim they were born again Christians, but how can you be sure when you cannot see the depth of their hearts?

No, I am not judging them at all. It is simply taking someone at their word that they really did make a commitment to Christ and followed him for a length of time. To say that they weren't saved in the first place is to judge their heart.

I know they were never sealed and born again because Jesus said NOBODY CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF HIS HANDS AND THAT THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, so if someone rejects Christ, that means they never genuinely accepted Him in the first place!

I do not think that this is necessarily what this verse is saying. Not to mention that such wording doesn't preclude someone making a decision to not follow Christ anymore.

So you have two options: judge their hearts and claim, with no biblical basis, that they weren't saved in the first place, or accept that they are still saved despite rejecting God and living a life of sin.

I have met many poeple who tell me they are Christian, but they live a life of crime and hurt and evil and don't care. I even knew a drug dealer who used to have people shot and killed, yet he told me and everyone he was a Christian and even wore a cross around his neck. But I ask you, was he really a sealed and born again Christian?

Of course there are such people, but as I have stated, these are not the people I have in view.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Yes, this has been a point of mine for 20 years or so.
Suppose a person "knows" for sure via the Holy Spirit that they are saved.
Did the Spirit actually CLEARLY PROMISE salvation to this person?
If this is the case, then I'm fine with their personal "Once saved, always saved" claim.
But, for everyone else ...
who knows what might derail their spiritual journey to cause them to fall away?
Sorry.

John, read these verses carefully:

1 John 5:12-13 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life

Now I ask you... can a Christian who has faith in the Son as their personal Savior, KNOW THAT THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE? Mind you, not TEMPORARY LIFE but ETERNAL LIFE? Yes or No?

Also..do you believe it's IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to be ONCE SAVED and ALWAYS SAVED? Yes or No?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

No, I am not judging them at all. It is simply taking someone at their word that they really did make a commitment to Christ and followed him for a length of time. To say that they weren't saved in the first place is to judge their heart.


I do not think that this is necessarily what this verse is saying. Not to mention that such wording doesn't preclude someone making a decision to not follow Christ anymore.

So you have two options: judge their hearts and claim, with no biblical basis, that they weren't saved in the first place, or accept that they are still saved despite rejecting God and living a life of sin.


Of course there are such people, but as I have stated, these are not the people I have in view.

1. Many Italian Mafia members and criminals who deal in drugs, kill people etc, claim they are born again Christians and that Jesus is their Lord. But are they truly born again in the first place? What do you think?

I knew a man who said he was not a follower of Christ, but he told me that there was a time he had been a Christian. I then asked him if Jesus had really been His Lord and Saviour and if there really was a time in the past where he had sincerely trusted in the blood of the Lamb to wash away His sin and sincerely trusted in Jesus as His Saviour..to this he shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, I was a Catholic, I used to attend Church, but I never really thought about it that way".

So as you can see... many people think they had once been a Christian and turned away from Jesus, but the reality and truth is, they never trusted in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour to begin with, they were just calling themselves "christian", nothing more.

2. You indicated that my interpretation of John 10:28 is wrong, so can you please explain to me in your own words that John 10:28 is teaching and saying?

3. In your beliefs and opinion..is it possible for a Christian to be ONCE SAVED AND ALWAYS SAVED? Yes or No?

 

[Saltwater]

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

With regards to - "So do we agree? That if a Christian continues to have sincere and genuine FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, they cannot lose their salvation? Yes or No?'

Yes, if they continue to have sincere & genuine faith I agree.

Now I'll bounce one back to you -
per Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Do you agree that per v23 if they do not 'continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which they heard' then they will lose their salvation?

Yes or No?

 

[jasoncran]

Lot of false theology out there. No doubt, people are looking for the easy road, to have their cake and eat it, too. To consider themselves "right" in the eyes of God, while they continue on with their merry way of depraved living, or as Peter said, the dog returning to the vomit... People who live morally bankrupt lives while rationalizing their "position" with God is good...

It is a serious distortion of the Gospel, for without serious conversion and following the road to discipleship, so much Scriptures make little sense, such as the Beatitudes, picking up one's cross, and dying to self. These are counter-intuitive to the types of "theologies" present in the sort of books you speak of. They are meant for consumption by people who "don't have time for all that God-stuff, I got a life to lead", but sense a spiritual need that is unfilled before reading such a book. Perhaps presenting such a truncated gospel appeals to people who do not really desire to change, but it certainly is not the Gospel taught by the Apostles. Thus, they bounce around to new and improved spiritual "teachings", looking for that magic formula that makes them feel spiritually satisfied while maintaining their current way of life.

Regards

i will say this joe, that mens group did teach sin was something that need to go. i left that group for a time over that and they realised later that was a bad book to teach as well i got heated in the class.

i miss the men but i wont read those style, the church is overall teaches and preaches from the bible. they are beeing hated locally by the gay rights lovers for their stance on homosexuality

 

[Saltwater]

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

With regards to - "And secondly, can you please give me your interpretation of this following verse:

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Please notice carefully, Jesus says 3 important things in that verse:

1. The saved are given ETERNAL LIFE, not temporary life!
2. The saved shall NEVER perish!
3. NOBODY can snatch the saved out of Jesus' hands.

So what is your take on it?"

Have a read of verse 27 where the condition for v28 to be fulfilled is mentioned.

The verse 28 promises are for those who are following Christ.

Question - can a believer cease to follow Christ?

Yes - here is one example where Christians lose their salvation by following false teaching:
2Tim2:15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Note v18 where the false teaching overthrows the faith of some. By grace we are saved thru faith so if your faith is overthrown you have fallen from grace (Gal5:4 another example).

For you to continue to hold to your belief that a Christian can never fall away you will have to explain how you interpret v18 above.

Looking forward to your explanation of v18.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

With regards to - "So do we agree? That if a Christian continues to have sincere and genuine FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, they cannot lose their salvation? Yes or No?'

Yes, if they continue to have sincere & genuine faith I agree.

Now I'll bounce one back to you -
per Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Do you agree that per v23 if they do not 'continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which they heard' then they will lose their salvation?

Yes or No?

Let me explain to you what Col 1:21-23 is teaching.

Nobody is good enough to save themselves. We need to totally rely on God's grace if we want eternal life. Apart from 100% Jesus, there is no way our sins can be removed. In v22, Paul explains that Jesus' physical body actually died and died in our place. V23 refers to us having complete trust in Jesus, "established and firm", putting our confidence in JESUS ALONE, not anyone else, not even ourselves!

And NOTE CAREFULLY, the key words are "If you continue in YOUR FAITH".

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

..Question - can a believer cease to follow Christ?

Yes - here is one example where Christians lose their salvation by following false teaching:
2Tim2:15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Note v18 where the false teaching overthrows the faith of some. By grace we are saved thru faith so if your faith is overthrown you have fallen from grace (Gal5:4 another example).

For you to continue to hold to your belief that a Christian can never fall away you will have to explain how you interpret v18 above.

Looking forward to your explanation of v18.

INCORRECT!!!!

Those verses do NOT teach that someone was a born again Christian who at a later date renounced Christ and become an unbeliever!!!

Hymenaeus was also mentioned in 1Tim 1:20. He was handed over to Satan because his false teaching concerning the resurrection was at risk of destroying some people's faith. They were denying the resurrection and teaching deceit!

So none of these verses teaches that a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN personally made a decision to RENOUNCE and REJECT JESUS and turn their back on Jesus!

Saltwater, I strongly encourage you to read those verses again, in context with the whole chapter and book to get an accurate understanding of what it's really teaching!

Now STOP trying to add human effort to the salvation goal:

"...Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" - Galatians 3:1-3

 

[Saltwater]

Hi there TruthSeeker2012,

with regards to: "INCORRECT!!!!

Those verses do NOT teach that someone was a born again Christian who at a later date renounced Christ and become an unbeliever!!!

Hymenaeus was also mentioned in 1Tim 1:20. He was handed over to Satan because his false teaching concerning the resurrection was at risk of destroying some people's faith. They were denying the resurrection and teaching deceit!

So none of these verses teaches that a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN personally made a decision to RENOUNCE and REJECT JESUS and turn their back on Jesus!

Saltwater, I strongly encourage you to read those verses again, in context with the whole chapter and book to get an accurate understanding of what it's really teaching!

Now STOP trying to add human effort to the salvation goal:""

Could you please explain your interpretation of v18 "who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some." with regards to "they overthrow the faith of some" - as I cannot find any mention of your interpretation of this verse in your reply.

I'm pretty sure you can do better than just ignoring the verse.

re: So none of these verses teaches that a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN personally made a decision to RENOUNCE and REJECT JESUS and turn their back on Jesus!

This is a straw man argument - the issue from v18 is that they overthrew the faith of some so that is the issue you have to respond to.

What does overthrow the faith of some mean to you?
If you believe this verse does not really mean what it simply says then what does it mean?
What happens if your faith is overthrown?

With regards to: "Now STOP trying to add human effort to the salvation goal:"

There are some really interesting verses about adding certain things to your faith in 2Pet1:3-15 by which "entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you v11).

I especially like the following verse:
v10 therefore brothers make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble." HCSB

for an example of stumbling caused by false teaching.see v18 mentioned above.

Hmmm, now let me see, should I follow your suggestion & "STOP trying to add human effort to the salvation goal" or should I follow 2Pet1:10-11? (bit of aussie sarcasm - no offence meant to you TruthSeeker2012.)

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...
Hmmm, now let me see, should I follow your suggestion & "STOP trying to add human effort to the salvation goal" or should I follow 2Pet1:10-11? (bit of aussie sarcasm - no offence meant to you TruthSeeker2012.)

Ok

But realise one thing..if you rely on and trust in any of your works and human effort to get right with God and to be saved, then in reality you have rejected Jesus as your ONE and ONLY SOLE and COMPLETE 100% Savior! For then Jesus is only part your Savior and you trust in YOURSELF and your own EFFORTS to also save you, so in reality you then have 2 Saviors, Jesus + You!

Think about it.

 

[Saltwater]

Let me explain to you what Col 1:21-23 is teaching.

Nobody is good enough to save themselves. We need to totally rely on God's grace if we want eternal life. Apart from 100% Jesus, there is no way our sins can be removed. In v22, Paul explains that Jesus' physical body actually died and died in our place. V23 refers to us having complete trust in Jesus, "established and firm", putting our confidence in JESUS ALONE, not anyone else, not even ourselves!

And NOTE CAREFULLY, the key words are "If you continue in YOUR FAITH".

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

Context from Col1:21 to 23:
v21 - once alienated from God because of our evil actions
v22 - we are now reconciled thru Jesus death to present us holy, faultless & blameless
v23 - v22 will be fulfilled IF we remain grounded, steadfast in the faith & not shifted away from the hope of the gospel

With regards to:And NOTE CAREFULLY, the key words are "If you continue in YOUR FAITH"

Could you please clarify you understanding of this conditional statement?
What will happen to a Christian who does not continue in the faith?

In reading these verses I see that v22 will be fulfilled in our lives if we remain grounded & steadfast in the faith.That is we meet the 'IF"condition mentioned in v23.

 

[Saltwater]

Ok

But realise one thing..if you rely on and trust in any of your works and human effort to get right with God and to be saved, then in reality you have rejected Jesus as your ONE and ONLY SOLE and COMPLETE 100% Savior! For then Jesus is only part your Savior and you trust in YOURSELF and your own EFFORTS to also save you, so in reality you then have 2 Saviors, Jesus + You!

Think about it.

Rest assured TruthSeeker2012 I see my response to these verses as obedience to God's word & I am very grateful to God that He has told us what we may add to our faith in order to have an entry into the eternal kingdom richly supplied. I link Gal2:17-21 & Rom8:12-17 especially v13.

Our faith in Christ for our salvation is the building block on which the acts of 2Peter1:3-11 are added.

Thanks for the quick & polite repsonse to this portion of my post. Look forward to further discussion with you.

 

[Free]

1. Many Italian Mafia members and criminals who deal in drugs, kill people etc, claim they are born again Christians and that Jesus is their Lord. But are they truly born again in the first place? What do you think?

I have already stated twice and will state for the last time, that I do not have such people in view here. This is a strawman.

I knew a man who said he was not a follower of Christ, but he told me that there was a time he had been a Christian. I then asked him if Jesus had really been His Lord and Saviour and if there really was a time in the past where he had sincerely trusted in the blood of the Lamb to wash away His sin and sincerely trusted in Jesus as His Saviour..to this he shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, I was a Catholic, I used to attend Church, but I never really thought about it that way".

So as you can see... many people think they had once been a Christian and turned away from Jesus, but the reality and truth is, they never trusted in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour to begin with, they were just calling themselves "christian", nothing more.

See above.

2. You indicated that my interpretation of John 10:28 is wrong, so can you please explain to me in your own words that John 10:28 is teaching and saying?

First, contrary to what many believe, one Scripture that appears to say something does not a doctrine make. Second, I am not able to get into it at this time. My point was that it may not be saying what you want it to say. There is much more Scripture states on the matter and you simply cannot use one verse and claim it supports such a reading.

3. In your beliefs and opinion..is it possible for a Christian to be ONCE SAVED AND ALWAYS SAVED? Yes or No?

Is it possible for someone to continue in their walk, to persevere, from the time of their commitment until they "get to heaven"? Yes. Will everyone who makes a commitment to Christ as their Lord and Savior end up persevering to the end? No.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Many people have told me that it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to be "ONCE SAVED AND ALWAYS SAVED" and they tell me that OSAS is a lie from the Devil.

But think about this very carefully... is it really IMPOSSIBLE for me to be once saved and always saved? Is it really impossible for me to be saved today and to always be saved? In other words, I can be saved today but I MUST lose my salvation, because after all, they say I cannot be once saved and always saved! Can you see how they contradict Jesus and Bible and the true Gospel?

Critics of the “once saved, always saved†doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin and not care and cherish sinning. But this is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ.

But ask these false teachers this question, "Do you have a license to sin?" When they answer no, tell them, "There you see? You sin and you don't even need a license!"

Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin and doesn't care about it, and even delights in their sinning has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26).

A person who willingly, sincerely, genuinely, humbly, repents and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ and continue to trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The false teachers who teach salvation through WORKS and not grace tell us that 1 John 5:13 is a lie and deceptive verse. They say that we cannot know we have eternal life, but instead we only have temporary life, because we cannot be once saved and always saved!

If we could lose our salvation, then Jesus was nothing more than a liar and deceiver and conman when He said:

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

NOTICE carefully, Jesus says 3 important things in that verse:

1. The saved are given ETERNAL LIFE, not temporary life!

2. The saved shall NEVER perish!

3. NOBODY can snatch the saved out of Jesus' hands.

False teachers who claim that "once saved always saved" is a lie and people who claim that a sincerely born again saved Christian can lose their salvation, and can perish, and can lose their eternal life, is calling Jesus a LIAR, CONMAN AND DECEIVER!

I tell you the truth, they do not know God or Bible, even if they claim to. They are "religious" people only, nothing more! Because anyone who tells you that it's IMPOSSIBLE to be once saved and always saved is teaching a false gospel and deceptive doctrines!

If any false teacher tells you that "Once saved always saved" is a lie and not possible, then ask them this question, "Is it impossible for a Christian who has sincere faith in Jesus to be once saved and always saved?"

Then watch them run and hide from the question, desperately trying to tell you it's a bad question and refusing to answer you.

BY THEIR FRUIT AND FALSE GOSPEL YOU SHALL KNOW THE FALSE TEACHERS!

Here's a high five and pat on the back! Preach it! AMEN