Your thoughts on the Trinity?

[jasoncran]

Dear jasoncran, The "nature of God" remains always a mystery incomprehensible by the minds of finite men. But the persons of God are knowable and lovable: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We can know Who God is in His Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but not what God is in His inner nature, this is hidden from all human beings, and from the angels. God is a Holy Mystery beyond all human comprehension. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

i am a triniatarian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but no man ever gave me a good defense of verses, in fact i learned them here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

d4christ is in the fold and hasnt seen it yet.

that is God's job.

 

[D4Christ]

Dear friend, If you are a Christian, you will know and love what the NT says, and it says "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19.

I could say bill, bob, and joe...not a tight arguement for making these 3 into 1 person.

Matt 28:19 (NLT)

19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It did not say baptize in the names (plural) but in the name singular. Who has the name that represents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

John 5 (NLT)

43 For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them.

John 17

Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are

Apparently this is Yahusha stating pretty clearly that He has His Father's name and operates in His Father's name. Interestingly enough the Holy Spirit also operates in the name of the Son, Yahushua, and is sent to be an advocate for Yahushua, speaking only what Yahushua tells him to.

John 16

13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14 He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

John 14

NIV But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

NASB "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name...."

Can we then deny, based on the scriptures above that Yahushua operates in the name of His Father and that the HS operates in the name of Yahushua.

Matt 28:19
19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (Yahushua )and the Son (Yahushua)and the Holy Spirit (Yahushua).

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Scotth1960]

I could say bill, bob, and joe...not a tight arguement for making these 3 into 1 person.

Matt 28:19 (NLT)

It did not say baptize in the names (plural) but in the name singular. Who has the name that represents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

John 5 (NLT)


John 17

Apparently this is Yahusha stating pretty clearly that He has His Father's name and operates in His Father's name. Interestingly enough the Holy Spirit also operates in the name of the Son, Yahushua, and is sent to be an advocate for Yahushua, speaking only what Yahushua tells him to.

John 16


John 14


Can we then deny, based on the scriptures above that Yahushua operates in the name of His Father and that the HS operates in the name of Yahushua.

Matt 28:19
19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (Yahushua )and the Son (Yahushua)and the Holy Spirit (Yahushua).

Blessings,
Dee

Dear friend, It would be better to refer to Jesus Christ as "Jesus Christ", and not to some fanciful Hebrewization /Judaization as "Yahushua", which, if I am not mistaken is "Yahshua" or "Yeshua", the same word behind "Joshua" in the OT.
It means "Yah saves" "Yah is salvation". Yah or Yahweh is the name of God in the OT, along with ELOHIM (the mighty ones). As for God being only one Person; NO. God is Three Persons. Not 3 persons in one person; three persons in one God. Three names in one person is Sabellianism, as far as I have studied this ancient heresy which was refuted long ago by the Greek-speaking Church.
In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[theLords]

I have a question for anybody willing to answer:

First, in full disclosure I don't believe in the Trinity. However, I do believe in the Holy Spirit, but not as God. I do believe in the Father, whose name is YHWH, and who is God. I do believe in the Son, whose name is Yahusha and who is also God.

You're the first person I've met that believes this way. Out of curiosity, why do you believe/feel this way?

 

[Scotth1960]

You're the first person I've met that believes this way. Out of curiosity, why do you believe/feel this way?

Dear the Lords, The Jehovah's witnesses believe in 2 God, the big God, Jehovah, and the little god, "a god", Jesus Christ. And the Holy Spirit according to them isn't God but merely "God's active force" (sic). This in common to the Armstrongists, the former Armstrong group, "Worldwide Church of God", who believe in 2 God, the Father, and the Son Jesus, but who deny the deity of the Holy Spirit. Besides these 2 gods, the Armstrongists also believe in many, many gods in the godhead which will be the followers of Herbert W. Armstrong in "his" "The God Family" (sic). You may not believe in that, but your rhetoric is reminiscent of these strange beliefs. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

You're the first person I've met that believes this way. Out of curiosity, why do you believe/feel this way?

I am sorry but I don't know which belief you endorse, There is so much quoting of other people's words, I get a bit confused as to who is denying the Trinity, and who is affirming the Trinity. God bless you anyway. Scott H.

 

[D4Christ]

In Acts, there is a verse referring to the Holy Spirit, which says of one person who was troubling the Apostles of Christ, "You have not lied to men, but to God." The Holy Spirit is God, and someone here in this passage had lied to the Holy Spirit, God, the LORD.

What is the job of the Holy Spirit?

Most of us would or at least should agree that the HS is a comforter, counselor and advocate. He is also a teacher of the Truth and he tells us exactly what he hears from Yahushua. Yahushua, likewise tells us what he hears from the Father. The HS also testifies to what he knows as shown in Hebrews 10;

14 For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says,...

Therefore, if the HS teaches the Truth that comes directly from God and testifies to this fact, then lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God. If God sends his HS to teach us truth and we lie to him, we are really lying to the One who sent Him.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Dear friend, If you are a Christian, you will know and love what the NT says, and it says "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19. In Acts, there is a verse referring to the Holy Spirit, which says of one person who was troubling the Apostles of Christ, "You have not lied to men, but to God." The Holy Spirit is God, and someone here in this passage had lied to the Holy Spirit, God, the LORD.
The Holy Spirit is the LORD too. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Christians of all times have wanted to believe in the Trinity, because the NT teaches the Trinity. Any child of God will know and love that truth. It is not so difficult to find in Scripture: See Matthew 28:19. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

The Problem With Matthew 28:19 "A Later insertion" The… | Babylon_The_Great on Xanga
Matthew 28:19
Spurious Passages - The Road to Understanding God's Will


FYI, Matthew 28:19 is a spurious addition to the text, and is not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. There are no manuscripts that contain this verse prior to the fourth century! There is absolutely NO manuscript in any language that contains it prior to the Trinitarian controversies.

 

[D4Christ]

do you believe in the nature of christ being both man and God?

I believe that Christ became fully human to fulfill his purpose on earth. However, when He resurrected I believe that He became fully Spirit again taking on the form He had before coming to earth.

This is the same hope we have when we die because flesh cannot inherit eternal life and though we are human know we will be transformed and changed into new and different bodies at our resurrection also.

Dee

 

[Scotth1960]

The Problem With Matthew 28:19 "A Later insertion" The… | Babylon_The_Great on Xanga
Matthew 28:19
Spurious Passages - The Road to Understanding God's Will


FYI, Matthew 28:19 is a spurious addition to the text, and is not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. There are no manuscripts that contain this verse prior to the fourth century! There is absolutely NO manuscript in any language that contains it prior to the Trinitarian controversies.

Dear Truth over Tradition, False! How do you KNOW that? Does your personal bias against the Trinity distort your view of Textual Criticism. This is not a debate on textual criticism. It was the Greek Orthodox Church that determined what is in the NT. The Byzantine text type was found in Constantinople, and Christians in the West (the KJV Protestants) all have INHERITED THIS TEXT, MATTHEW 28:19) from THE GREEK-SPEAKING ORTHODOX CHURCH. And YES, MATTHEW 28:19 IS HOLY SCRIPTURE. Your bias against THE TRINITY IS SHOWING HERE IN YOUR ILLOGICAL REASONING. The Holy Spirit, in the Church, determines what is in the NT, not you or I as individuals. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[D4Christ]

Dear friend, It would be better to refer to Jesus Christ as "Jesus Christ", and not to some fanciful Hebrewization /Judaization as "Yahushua", which, if I am not mistaken is "Yahshua" or "Yeshua", the same word behind "Joshua" in the OT.
It means "Yah saves" "Yah is salvation". Yah or Yahweh is the name of God in the OT, along with ELOHIM (the mighty ones). As for God being only one Person; NO. God is Three Persons. Not 3 persons in one person; three persons in one God. Three names in one person is Sabellianism, as far as I have studied this ancient heresy which was refuted long ago by the Greek-speaking Church.
In Erie PA Scott H.

Debating whether to call Jesus, Christ or Yahushua is best left for another day and another discussion. ;)

However, the arguement has been made, by others which I support, that the idea of 1 God is made up of 3 persons or people inside may not only be considered a heresy by some, but pagan in nature and is practiced by many pagan religions. Personally it makes God seem schizophrenic in nature...how is He (beside being God) different than people with mulitple-personality disorders? For scriptures say the Father knows info that the 2nd person (Son) of His being doesn't know, and the Son only does what the 1st person tells Him and the 3rd person only does what the 2nd person tells him. Yet despite this many Trinity believers say all three people are co-equal, even though the Son explicity states that he is not greater than the first person, nor does he have authority over the 1st person.

But riddle me this? If there are 3 persons in 1 God ( or God as 3 persons as you state), then 1) Why do the Son and the Father remain separate, and have separate thrones, even after the Son ascends to be with and next to (not in ) his Father? 2)Why is only the Father and Son mentioned in New Jerusalem if Holy Spirit is part of their trio? 3) Why does Yahushua need to get a new name once in heaven...being that the theory is that God separated himself to complete jobs on earth, so that when said jobs are completed these persons should rejoin, right?

 

[D4Christ]

Dear Truth over Tradition, False! How do you KNOW that? Does your personal bias against the Trinity distort your view of Textual Criticism. This is not a debate on textual criticism....Your bias against THE TRINITY IS SHOWING HERE IN YOUR ILLOGICAL REASONING....

Hi Scott,

I know this comment was not directed to me but I am going to say this anyway and I pray you take it in the spirit of peace in which I've intended.

All of us are obviously very passionate about what we believe. However, as we site sources that speak to our arguements one way or the other, it is unwise to say our findigs are cart blanche biased or illogical without taking time to read our sources and the historical evidence upon which many of these arguements are made. ToT pointed you to a website that spoke about a verse of the bible being added at a later date. Another verse used to prove trinity, 1 John 5:7, was also said to have been added later by historians and indeed cannot be found in the NLT, NASB or NIV versions. There is valid proof offered by both sides of the discussion, some of which is backed by history and should be considered.

Coming out against the trinity is not easy. Man has made it a "mystery of our faith" despite the fact that the only "mystery" mentioned in the NT wasn't about the trinity. Most of us have believed because it is all we have ever known. Yet those who disagree feel no less connected to God than those who do.

That's why this discussion is important. Are nontrinitarians still Christians?

I believe that the Father sent His Son as a mediator and High Priest on our behalf.

I believe Yahushua became a man to suffer and die for us.

I believe that the Father is God.

I believe that Son is God (Hebrews 1: 3,8,9)

I believe that the Father gave the Son all authority.

I believe that when the Son conquers death he will hand this authority back over to His Father.

I believe He rose and is now with His Father in heaven.

I believe that the HS was sent as an advocate in the Son's absence on earth and he only speaks what he hears from the son.

I believe the Father has a throne in heaven.

I believe the Son has a throne in heaven.

I believe the Son has the Father's name.

I believe the HS comes in the Son's name.

How is the father and son relationship described in scriptures harmed or compromised in any way just because I don't believe that the Son and the Father and the Holy spirit are the same person?

This is a very important discussion for me and I would hate to see this thread called non-productive. I don't want this to degenerate into comments about motive, but rather see discussion based around facts based in scripture and history. You seem rather knowledgeable and I would enjoy continuing our conversation.

I will show you my facts if you show me yours.;)

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

You're the first person I've met that believes this way. Out of curiosity, why do you believe/feel this way?

Thanks for asking....I was not on a mission to disprove the trinity. As I searched scriptures to clear up my confusion on the rapture timing, I began to read the scriptures for my own understanding more than I had ever in my life. All of a sudden things I had read for years came alive with meaning. It was around this time that I began to notice how much Yahushua talked about his relationship with his Father and how He consistenly gave deference to His Father's absolute authority. I also noticed how the apostles spoke to Yahushua, giving his Father honor and then the Son honor.

I became uncomfortable with the idea that Yahushua was co-equal to his Father or that they were the same being. I was hesitant to "go there" but I did. And you know what? Separating the three doesn't take away from anything that the scriptures state. There is nothing that I believe about the three separately that cannot be backed by scriptures.

I became free...to understand the concept of Yahushua operating in the "name" of his Father.

...that the HS operates in the name of Yahushua
...that when Yahushua was spoken of in Isaiah, scriptures stated that his "name" (singular) would be called, "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace."

People's names can be called many things. Donald Trump's name is called many things; entreprenaur, mogul, buisnessman, savvy, etc. Yahushua states plainly that he operates in his Father's name, and the HS does work in His name. Why then would Yahusha's name not be called with the attributes of those He represents; wonderful, counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father? Scriptures don't state that these are his names but that his name would be called these attributes. Counselor, everlasting, mighty, wonderful are not the names of God or the Holy but are attributes of both.

All kinds of confusion became clear.....like how could the Father (begot) sire himself? To begot someone is to produce an offspring. Trinity is in direct oppostion to that concept.

I also understand the concept of ownership expressed between Father and Son. For example, there are passages that says Yahusha is savior. Then there is a passage that says God (Father) is savior. Or there is a passage that says Yahushua created the world. Then you will find a passage that states God (Father) created it. How do yo explain this? Most would say this is possible because the Father and Son are the same person. However, if you understand how Yahushua operates in his Father's name then the comparisons become clear. Yahushua created the earth. Yahushua is savior. But He does nothing that was not commanded by His Father. The Father commisioned these acts and takes credit for all that His Son does. Huh?

How is it that possible? Who created Trump Towers....who actually builds trumps buildings. Answer: Construction workers, managers, directors,...they are actually onsite doing the work. But when it comes to a ribbon cutting, who cuts the ribbon? Trump. Who gets praised for building the buildings? Trump. Does Trump ever hammer one nail or put up one piece of plywood? Yet, he gets full credit for the completed work. So is the relationship between Father and Son and there are plenty of scriptures that demonstrate this dynamic at work.

There are plenty other examples, none of which would be valid if 1 God was made up of three persons.

Blessings,

Dee

 

[Free]

However, the arguement has been made, by others which I support, that the idea of 1 God is made up of 3 persons or people inside may not only be considered a heresy by some, but pagan in nature and is practiced by many pagan religions.

But so is polytheism:

I do believe in the Father, whose name is YHWH, and who is God. I do believe in the Son, whose name is Yahusha and who is also God. I do not believe that Father and Son are the same being, but they both have the nature of God.

And polytheism is specifically spoken against in Scripture. That some pagan religions may believe in a triune god does not mean that the Christian Trinity is pagan.

Personally it makes God seem schizophrenic in nature...how is He (beside being God) different than people with mulitple-personality disorders? For scriptures say the Father knows info that the 2nd person (Son) of His being doesn't know, and the Son only does what the 1st person tells Him and the 3rd person only does what the 2nd person tells him. Yet despite this many Trinity believers say all three people are co-equal, even though the Son explicity states that he is not greater than the first person, nor does he have authority over the 1st person.

This is all answered by taking into account all that the Scriptures state regarding God, particularly Phil 2:5-8:

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

 

[Free]

The Problem With Matthew 28:19 "A Later insertion" The… | Babylon_The_Great on Xanga
Matthew 28:19
Spurious Passages - The Road to Understanding God's Will


FYI, Matthew 28:19 is a spurious addition to the text, and is not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. There are no manuscripts that contain this verse prior to the fourth century! There is absolutely NO manuscript in any language that contains it prior to the Trinitarian controversies.

Even if not in any biblical manuscript, it seems to have been quoted by early church fathers prior to the 4th century:

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, in Chapter 2 (see here) says, Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost....".

Tertullian, c. 200 AD (see here writes in On Baptism, Chapter XIII: "For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." and in Against Praxeas, chapter 2 says, "After His resurrection ..He commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost".

Hippolytus (170-236 AD says in Fragments: Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical.--Against the Heresy of One Noetus, "gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Cyprian (200-258AD) in The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian says, And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." and alludes to the same passage in other places as well.

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) in A Sectional Confession of Faith, XIII (see here says, "....the Lord sends forth His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"

Matthew 28:19 Genuine by James Patrick Holding

 

[Scotth1960]

Hi Scott,

I know this comment was not directed to me but I am going to say this anyway and I pray you take it in the spirit of peace in which I've intended.

All of us are obviously very passionate about what we believe. However, as we site sources that speak to our arguements one way or the other, it is unwise to say our findigs are cart blanche biased or illogical without taking time to read our sources and the historical evidence upon which many of these arguements are made. ToT pointed you to a website that spoke about a verse of the bible being added at a later date. Another verse used to prove trinity, 1 John 5:7, was also said to have been added later by historians and indeed cannot be found in the NLT, NASB or NIV versions. There is valid proof offered by both sides of the discussion, some of which is backed by history and should be considered.

Coming out against the trinity is not easy. Man has made it a "mystery of our faith" despite the fact that the only "mystery" mentioned in the NT wasn't about the trinity. Most of us have believed because it is all we have ever known. Yet those who disagree feel no less connected to God than those who do.

That's why this discussion is important. Are nontrinitarians still Christians?



How is the father and son relationship described in scriptures harmed or compromised in any way just because I don't believe that the Son and the Father and the Holy spirit are the same person?

This is a very important discussion for me and I would hate to see this thread called non-productive. I don't want this to degenerate into comments about motive, but rather see discussion based around facts based in scripture and history. You seem rather knowledgeable and I would enjoy continuing our conversation.

I will show you my facts if you show me yours.;)

Blessings,
Dee

Dear D4Christ, Without the Spirit of the LORD being God, one is left with a 2 headed God, a binity. The Trinity is not a 3 headed God, but a perfect union of Father Son and Spirit. The Father is the source and Monarch of the Trinity, the One from Whom Son and Spirit come. The Son comes by generation (begottenness), the Spirit comes by procession (spiration). God the Father causes the Son and the Spirit to be, and they all co-exist eternally. The Son always was and always will be, and the Spirit always was and always will be, together with the Father Who always was and always will be.
It is an old error, I believe called Macedonianism, to deny the Deity of the Holy Spirit. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington PS God bless you.

 

[Scotth1960]

Even if not in any biblical manuscript, it seems to have been quoted by early church fathers prior to the 4th century:

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, in Chapter 2 (see here) says, Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost....".

Tertullian, c. 200 AD (see here writes in On Baptism, Chapter XIII: "For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." and in Against Praxeas, chapter 2 says, "After His resurrection ..He commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost".

Hippolytus (170-236 AD says in Fragments: Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical.--Against the Heresy of One Noetus, "gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Cyprian (200-258AD) in The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian says, And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." and alludes to the same passage in other places as well.

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) in A Sectional Confession of Faith, XIII (see here says, "....the Lord sends forth His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"

Matthew 28:19 Genuine by James Patrick Holding

Thank you, Free, for sharing this article with us. But there is no insufficiency in Matthew 28:19. It says "name" indicated one God and then lists the 3 persons. So nothing is lacking here, and it does not teach tritheism or modalism. That would be reading a doctrinal error into the text, where Matthew doesn't teach those errors. But of course other Scriptures are needed to give the whole NT message on the Trinity. It is just that this verse in Matthew says what needs to be said. Who are the Persons of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, according to Matthew chapter 28. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Hi Scott,

I know this comment was not directed to me but I am going to say this anyway and I pray you take it in the spirit of peace in which I've intended.

All of us are obviously very passionate about what we believe. However, as we site sources that speak to our arguements one way or the other, it is unwise to say our findigs are cart blanche biased or illogical without taking time to read our sources and the historical evidence upon which many of these arguements are made. ToT pointed you to a website that spoke about a verse of the bible being added at a later date. Another verse used to prove trinity, 1 John 5:7, was also said to have been added later by historians and indeed cannot be found in the NLT, NASB or NIV versions. There is valid proof offered by both sides of the discussion, some of which is backed by history and should be considered.

Coming out against the trinity is not easy. Man has made it a "mystery of our faith" despite the fact that the only "mystery" mentioned in the NT wasn't about the trinity. Most of us have believed because it is all we have ever known. Yet those who disagree feel no less connected to God than those who do.

That's why this discussion is important. Are nontrinitarians still Christians?



How is the father and son relationship described in scriptures harmed or compromised in any way just because I don't believe that the Son and the Father and the Holy spirit are the same person?

This is a very important discussion for me and I would hate to see this thread called non-productive. I don't want this to degenerate into comments about motive, but rather see discussion based around facts based in scripture and history. You seem rather knowledgeable and I would enjoy continuing our conversation.

I will show you my facts if you show me yours.;)

Blessings,
Dee

Dear Dee, I do not believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same person, either. But these three, these three persons, are the same God, the only God, the one God of the Bible. In Erie Scott H.

 

[D4Christ]

But so is polytheism:
And polytheism is specifically spoken against in Scripture. That some pagan religions may believe in a triune god does not mean that the Christian Trinity is pagan.

Then we may have to agree to disagree on this one. I can only point to this as a reponse.

No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity; and was among the efficacious doctrines which gave it triumph over the polytheism of the ancients, sickened with the absurdities of their own theology. Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the fanatic Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads...The pure and simple unity of the Creator of the universe...that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities... Letter to James Smith, Dec. 8, 1822
​

This is all answered by taking into account all that the Scriptures state regarding God, particularly Phil 2:5-8:

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

I like this verse. Here it is in other versions.

NLT 6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

KJV 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

NIV 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

There is no question that as the Father's only begotten Son, Yahushua has the nature of God. If humans beget humans, and fish beget other fish, why would God beget (birth, sire) something that was not God. (And the Father called Yahushua God in Hebrews 1...unless one would suggest that He was having a conversation with Himself.)

Although Christ has the capacity of God, he never took it upon himself to assume his power, instead waiting for his Father to bestow that honor upon himself.

Hebrews 5

4 And no one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by God for this work, just as Aaron was. 5 That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him,
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.
7 ...While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him

And the apostles also treated the Son as a separate being, who recieved power from His Father.

2 Peter 1

16 For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes 17 when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.†18 We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain.

Here's 2 questions for you. 10 If there is ONE God embodied in three persons, then why would the 2nd person of your Trinity say that the 1st person is also his God. Wouldn't that make for 2 Gods?

John 20:

“Don’t cling to me,†Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’â€

2) If God is 3 persons why do we recieve the name of Yahushua's God on us and the new name of Yahushua in New Jerusalem?

Rev 3

All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Dear D4Christ, Without the Spirit of the LORD being God, one is left with a 2 headed God, a binity. The Trinity is not a 3 headed God, but a perfect union of Father Son and Spirit.

If you dropped the word trinity the perfect "unity" between the Father, Son and Spirit is still evident.

John 17

20 “I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. 21 I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.
22 “I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.

Does this exchange mean that the Son and the Father are one being or are in perfect agreement and unity with one another? If this passage means one being, then that would mean we are part of a gazillion-inty because Yahushua prays that we will all be one also. Or does verse 23 clear eveything up and demonstrate the passage is talking being one in agreement, thought practice....

The Father is the source and Monarch of the Trinity, the One from Whom Son and Spirit come. The Son comes by generation (begottenness), the Spirit comes by procession (spiration).

The Son comes by generation? Please show me a scripture and how generation is the same as being begotten.

The Siprit comes by procession (spriation:the act of breathing)? Please show me a scripture. My scriptures deomonstrate that the HS was sent by the Father and listens to what the Son tells him.

God the Father causes the Son and the Spirit to be, and they all co-exist eternally. The Son always was and always will be, and the Spirit always was and always will be, together with the Father Who always was and always will be.

The Father causes all life to be in exisistence. There was never any question as to their eternal state, nor to the fact that they co-exist. Everybody on this board who does not die today co-exists.

It is an old error, I believe called Macedonianism, to deny the Deity of the Holy Spirit. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington PS God bless you.

Show me a passage that specifically states the HS is God and I will correct that error.

Blessings,
Dee