Sinful awful people by the WORLD's standard. Where do you fit?

[Danus]

I thought about putting this in the A&T section, but getting to the doctrine of what sin is would have made it too long. Besides, this is more about sin as the world sees it by standards the world has set.

What does the secular world thinks of sin. They may not call it sin, but if we use the typical definition of sin as "missing the mark", or substandard in some way, we can gleam from the world it's view and compare it to the Christian view. Some of the worlds standards are borrowed from the law given to Moses, but the world has been able to make concessions and conditions to that standard of sin. For example murder, adultery, covetousness, the world does see some value in these things. (when I say the world I mean the secular world)

I have found that it is easy to offend the world. The world is changing it's standards all the time. Like God's own standards, the worlds standards are standards that no one can quite live up to. God's standards are "perfect rigorousness 100%." The worlds standards are not so harsh, and grading is on a curve where It seems some get more points than others. So, what are the worlds standards?

The world values beauty, health, intelligence, wealth, power, and to a large degree, anyone who tends to embody these aspects in their character and physical make up.

These are the people who run the world, seated in positions of prominence from government, to science, to business and entertainment, even religion; those people who best fit the attributes required by the world are there to one degree or another.

They are rewarded with money, power, privileges, and accolades of recognition in one form or another, and despite their beliefs, their morality is often based and viewed by the worldly standards they exhibit.

The world cares less and less for anyone who does not meet it's standards. We see it every day. In fact history has displayed it over and over. The world attempting to control of even wipe-out, or exploit what it sees as sin against it's own self. The Holocaust, Slavery, Just to name two examples. ever hear of Eugenics?

Eugenics is the applied science or the bio-social engineering movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a human population. This was openly practiced for years right here in the US and other places around the world.

If you kill or sterilize people who are undesirable, theoretically they will not pass on their "sin" to the next generation. Retardation, deformities, genetic conditions of any kind, even character, social economic status and Ideas have been attempted to be eliminated through the use of eugenics or in more extreme ways like genocide. Even abortion falls into this group, but has it worked?

Has the world rid itself of it's undesirables that don't measure up and cause trouble? No, not really. We still have those type of people, maybe even more then ever.

Today the world is about to employ a new method. Genetic engineering. Designer babies are coming to a clinic near you. Why? the world sees this as a more humane way of reaching it's goal of perfection by attacking the problem of sin at it's very core. genetics.

Recently Professor Julian Savulescu said that "creating so-called designer babies could be considered a "moral obligation" as it makes them grow up into "ethically better children".

In theory, this, along with abortion, will rid people of all those nasty habits, possible diseases and condition, those character flaws that get in the way of a more perfect world. The rest of the undesirables the world could care less about can still be exploited.

You can read about it here if you like. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9480372/Genetically-engineering-ethical-babies-is-a-moral-obligation-says-Oxford-professor.html

One thing for sure that the world and Christians can, or should be able to agree on, is that this world is not as it was intended. It's not perfect. We have troubles....right? But, this does not answer the question. Where do you fit in to the worlds standards? How sinful are you to the world? Let's answer it.

To start with we'll need a standard. Now If I use the worlds standard; beauty, health, intelligence, wealth, power, heck I'm practically a saint. I have all these things, and I'm very humble. No really...I am! But seriously, I don't meet the worlds standards any more than many, but I have little problems traversing my place in the world by it's standards for the most part other than being a Christian, which is my biggest flaw to the world. OK..., but if I use Gods standards I'm none of these things.

I am not 100% righteous. I sin in some way everyday. I miss God's standard every day. But I also don't fully measure up to the worlds standard either.

There is a differences however, in these two standards and being accepted. The world will not forgive you of your sins. It will place you where it sees you best fit to it's own standards. God however, offers forgiveness 100% and accepts you where you are, but some people have a bigger problem with this, they don't believe it.

 

[jasoncran]

ugh, well then some my family would be dead or all of it and i never born if the shoah wasnt stopped.

i have learned that im worthless and full of sin and lust and evil, but christ saved me and is all the good that is in me. he choose me so that i can love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God however, offers forgiveness 100% and accepts you where you are, but some people have a bigger problem with this, they don't believe it.

Because they think it's not fair.

If you don't believe me, ask your local atheist.

 

[abide]

I thought about putting this in the A&T section, but getting to the doctrine of what sin is would have made it too long. Besides, this is more about sin as the world sees it by standards the world has set.

What does the secular world thinks of sin. They may not call it sin, but if we use the typical definition of sin as "missing the mark", or substandard in some way, we can gleam from the world it's view and compare it to the Christian view. Some of the worlds standards are borrowed from the law given to Moses, but the world has been able to make concessions and conditions to that standard of sin. For example murder, adultery, covetousness, the world does see some value in these things. (when I say the world I mean the secular world)

I have found that it is easy to offend the world. The world is changing it's standards all the time. Like God's own standards, the worlds standards are standards that no one can quite live up to. God's standards are "perfect rigorousness 100%." The worlds standards are not so harsh, and grading is on a curve where It seems some get more points than others. So, what are the worlds standards?

The world values beauty, health, intelligence, wealth, power, and to a large degree, anyone who tends to embody these aspects in their character and physical make up.

These are the people who run the world, seated in positions of prominence from government, to science, to business and entertainment, even religion; those people who best fit the attributes required by the world are there to one degree or another.

They are rewarded with money, power, privileges, and accolades of recognition in one form or another, and despite their beliefs, their morality is often based and viewed by the worldly standards they exhibit.

The world cares less and less for anyone who does not meet it's standards. We see it every day. In fact history has displayed it over and over. The world attempting to control of even wipe-out, or exploit what it sees as sin against it's own self. The Holocaust, Slavery, Just to name two examples. ever hear of Eugenics?

Eugenics is the applied science or the bio-social engineering movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a human population. This was openly practiced for years right here in the US and other places around the world.

If you kill or sterilize people who are undesirable, theoretically they will not pass on their "sin" to the next generation. Retardation, deformities, genetic conditions of any kind, even character, social economic status and Ideas have been attempted to be eliminated through the use of eugenics or in more extreme ways like genocide. Even abortion falls into this group, but has it worked?

Has the world rid itself of it's undesirables that don't measure up and cause trouble? No, not really. We still have those type of people, maybe even more then ever.

Today the world is about to employ a new method. Genetic engineering. Designer babies are coming to a clinic near you. Why? the world sees this as a more humane way of reaching it's goal of perfection by attacking the problem of sin at it's very core. genetics.

Recently Professor Julian Savulescu said that "creating so-called designer babies could be considered a "moral obligation" as it makes them grow up into "ethically better children".

In theory, this, along with abortion, will rid people of all those nasty habits, possible diseases and condition, those character flaws that get in the way of a more perfect world. The rest of the undesirables the world could care less about can still be exploited.

You can read about it here if you like. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9480372/Genetically-engineering-ethical-babies-is-a-moral-obligation-says-Oxford-professor.html

One thing for sure that the world and Christians can, or should be able to agree on, is that this world is not as it was intended. It's not perfect. We have troubles....right? But, this does not answer the question. Where do you fit in to the worlds standards? How sinful are you to the world? Let's answer it.

To start with we'll need a standard. Now If I use the worlds standard; beauty, health, intelligence, wealth, power, heck I'm practically a saint. I have all these things, and I'm very humble. No really...I am! But seriously, I don't meet the worlds standards any more than many, but I have little problems traversing my place in the world by it's standards for the most part other than being a Christian, which is my biggest flaw to the world. OK..., but if I use Gods standards I'm none of these things.

I am not 100% righteous. I sin in some way everyday. I miss God's standard every day. But I also don't fully measure up to the worlds standard either.

There is a differences however, in these two standards and being accepted. The world will not forgive you of your sins. It will place you where it sees you best fit to it's own standards. God however, offers forgiveness 100% and accepts you where you are, but some people have a bigger problem with this, they don't believe it.

I am a sinner saved by grace.

 

[Gordon]

I think you are missing a big one in your list and that would be popularity or people skills. I realized how harshly the world can judge you if your a dork or weird. Also how hard it can be to find a partner or have sex if you are not "cool" or socially valuable. Even men with great wealth intelligence and even looks can struggle with women or simply have nothing if they don't have skills. There are whole communities devoted to learning these skills and going from nothing to an excessive (and very sinful) sex life. They call these people acceptable without learning these skills naturals. I found that whole journey turned out to be very hollow like I imagine the pursuit of wealth for the sake of wealth would be. I imagine for a woman who was not born beautiful it is much the same with make-up and working out and clothing and what not. I think people in the US can be forgiven of most any flaw except being an outcast because of lack of people skills. A poor man can become rich. A ugly man can get a pretty woman. But a creepy guy is a social pirah.

I also have developed a mental illness so as your post mentioned I am socially unfit by the worlds standards. I almost agree with that as I think it would be better if I adopted than have children of my own. Mental illness is also taboo as people associate it with the insane and violence. I do not tell the world about my condition and no one is the wiser in most cases.

I also think the biggest thing right now is not designer babies but homosexuals being fully accepted and perfectly acceptable. With every sitcom featuring someone gay it seems like this push will not be stopped and it is only a matter of time. Christians will then be labeled intolerent for seeing anything wrong with the behavior. Perhaps leading Christianity to seem outdated and no longer relevant.

Outside the US and in third world countries I'd say wealth is how the world judges you. If you are born poor you have little chance to improve your situation.

As a Christian I still feel I am being judged but the standards are much different. Am I kind to the poor? Do I have mercy? Do I treat others how I want to be treated? I think I will be rewarded for these things though they are not the sole reason I try to do it. I feel just knowing I'm saved is not all God wants from me.

 

[BornAgain]

I think you are missing a big one in your list and that would be popularity or people skills. I realized how harshly the world can judge you if your a dork or weird. Also how hard it can be to find a partner or have sex if you are not "cool" or socially valuable. Even men with great wealth intelligence and even looks can struggle with women or simply have nothing if they don't have skills. There are whole communities devoted to learning these skills and going from nothing to an excessive (and very sinful) sex life. They call these people acceptable without learning these skills naturals. I found that whole journey turned out to be very hollow like I imagine the pursuit of wealth for the sake of wealth would be. I imagine for a woman who was not born beautiful it is much the same with make-up and working out and clothing and what not. I think people in the US can be forgiven of most any flaw except being an outcast because of lack of people skills. A poor man can become rich. A ugly man can get a pretty woman. But a creepy guy is a social pirah.

I also have developed a mental illness so as your post mentioned I am socially unfit by the worlds standards. I almost agree with that as I think it would be better if I adopted than have children of my own. Mental illness is also taboo as people associate it with the insane and violence. I do not tell the world about my condition and no one is the wiser in most cases.

I also think the biggest thing right now is not designer babies but homosexuals being fully accepted and perfectly acceptable. With every sitcom featuring someone gay it seems like this push will not be stopped and it is only a matter of time. Christians will then be labeled intolerent for seeing anything wrong with the behavior. Perhaps leading Christianity to seem outdated and no longer relevant.

Outside the US and in third world countries I'd say wealth is how the world judges you. If you are born poor you have little chance to improve your situation.

As a Christian I still feel I am being judged but the standards are much different. Am I kind to the poor? Do I have mercy? Do I treat others how I want to be treated? I think I will be rewarded for these things though they are not the sole reason I try to do it. I feel just knowing I'm saved is not all God wants from me.

Hi Gordon,

I read your comments a few times and it brought to mind this scripture:

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:2 (KJV)
<!--EndFragment-->
To be "transformed" is to be changed from the pursuit of worldly ends by renewing the mind, directing it by gospel motives into new channels for spiritual ends. [In other words, the mind, instead of being fashioned after this world, is to be so changed in belief, desire, and purpose as to lead to a life unlike the world in the particulars meant. The old, unrenewed mind fashions the life after the world; the renewed mind refuses because of the antagonism between it and the world. The renewed mind induces a new life.]—Gospel Advocate Commentaries<!--EndFragment-->

Stick to what you know is good and true to God and not what the world thinks or what their standards are. In the end it is between you and God.

 

[Gordon]

Hi Gordon,

I read your comments a few times and it brought to mind this scripture:

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:2 (KJV)
<!--EndFragment-->
To be "transformed" is to be changed from the pursuit of worldly ends by renewing the mind, directing it by gospel motives into new channels for spiritual ends. [In other words, the mind, instead of being fashioned after this world, is to be so changed in belief, desire, and purpose as to lead to a life unlike the world in the particulars meant. The old, unrenewed mind fashions the life after the world; the renewed mind refuses because of the antagonism between it and the world. The renewed mind induces a new life.]—Gospel Advocate Commentaries<!--EndFragment-->

Stick to what you know is good and true to God and not what the world thinks or what their standards are. In the end it is between you and God.

Hi BornAgain ,
I try to do this now as I no longer care how much success I am having with women or even what success with women means. I think it coming full circle and me becoming "successful" at what I was trying to do made me realize how empty it was. I think it was a turning point and made me think is this all there is? I also had goals like retire at 40 and was saving up tons of money. I'm sure I would have found this just as empty. I think I can relate to the "unattractive" girl or the girl who struggles with obesity in how it feels and how the world judges. I was like the overweight girl who becomes bulimic to conform to the world.

I try to do as you suggest and base my values on the Bible now by reading it. It's the only thing that is really important. Thanks for your comments.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi BornAgain ,
I try to do this now as I no longer care how much success I am having with women or even what success with women means. I think it coming full circle and me becoming "successful" at what I was trying to do made me realize how empty it was. I think it was a turning point and made me think is this all there is? I also had goals like retire at 40 and was saving up tons of money. I'm sure I would have found this just as empty. I think I can relate to the "unattractive" girl or the girl who struggles with obesity in how it feels and how the world judges. I was like the overweight girl who becomes bulimic to conform to the world.

I try to do as you suggest and base my values on the Bible now by reading it. It's the only thing that is really important. Thanks for your comments.

You are welcome...the only way you will find peace and fill that emptiness is through the gospel, through the Word of God. Everything else in time will fade away and the struggles, or how people appear on the surface will become superficial....just like the world. I would not want to conform to the world, especially this world. Stay strong, study everyday...everyday. Your last words at night should be to God and the first thing in the morning. Last Sunday at service, one of the gentleman there said that he has a conversation everynight with God. He is elderly and said, "wouldn't that be great to know your last conversation that you had on this earth was with God?" That really meant something to me. I have prayed that you will find peace and comfort...

I am always browsing around if you need some encouragement!

 

[Gordon]

You are welcome...the only way you will find peace and fill that emptiness is through the gospel, through the Word of God. Everything else in time will fade away and the struggles, or how people appear on the surface will become superficial....just like the world. I would not want to conform to the world, especially this world. Stay strong, study everyday...everyday. Your last words at night should be to God and the first thing in the morning. Last Sunday at service, one of the gentleman there said that he has a conversation everynight with God. He is elderly and said, "wouldn't that be great to know your last conversation that you had on this earth was with God?" That really meant something to me. I have prayed that you will find peace and comfort...

I am always browsing around if you need some encouragement!

You know I think I'll do just that. I will talk to God when I wake up and when I go to bed. I read the Bible about twice a week but I will try to do this every day. I think that will help me to see the world like He does. I think I'll also send you a pm if I need some encouragement. Thanks.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you BornAgain as I was going to post this verse as we are not to conform to this world as when we do then we are conforming to the prince (Satan) of this world and walk in his standards instead of Gods standard of love by grace. Even the Pharisees and Scribes were looking for a Kingly Priest in the coming Messiah and this is why they rejected Jesus because of his appearance of that of a lowly servant.

Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[BornAgain]

Thank you BornAgain as I was going to post this verse as we are not to conform to this world as when we do then we are conforming to the prince (Satan) of this world and walk in his standards instead of Gods standard of love by grace. Even the Pharisees and Scribes were looking for a Kingly Priest in the coming Messiah and this is why they rejected Jesus because of his appearance of that of a lowly servant.

Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I appreciate the response and like Matthew's s scripture as well. That was kind of you to acknowledge....

God Bless,

BornAgain

 

[ColdBlooded]

If the only judgement that is valid to you is your deity, then why bother worrying what others think? Live up to his/hers/it's standards it has provided for you.
People don't decide upon your character, that would be God's job.

As for what the "secular" world thinks of sin, I cannot say, for I do not preach for them. People still view murder as bad, stealing as wrong, and everything else that harms others.

But where the split comes is the personal endeavors. Drugs/alcohol/tobacco are usually not considered absolute evil, and who people sleep with (and how) is not considered innately incorrect or bad.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Eugenics is one of the scariest pseudoscientific branches of medicine+social engineering ever to hit the earth. And it seems more and more that in "advance" societies, eugenics either never died or is making a come back under the guise of "progress."

I'm a sinner, according to the values of the world. I'm trying not be gay (don't you know that gay is awesome? You're in denial!), I'm a recovering mental patient (don't you know that mental illness is forever and ever? Recovery is not actually possible!), and I'm a Christian (This "Jesus" character is OK, as long you don't try to impose your values on me or live any differently from everyone else). Ridiculous. Also, I know what you mean about the looks and social connections thing. When I was burned out and my well-connected, white-collar family wanted nothing to do with me, I was expendable. Even professionals treated me with contempt. Then God healed me and now that I'm visibly healthy, reasonably attractive, and have all sorts of connections and some modest resources available to me, I'm suddenly a part of the community. Weird, huh?

 

[BornAgain]

Eugenics is one of the scariest pseudoscientific branches of medicine+social engineering ever to hit the earth. And it seems more and more that in "advance" societies, eugenics either never died or is making a come back under the guise of "progress."

I'm a sinner, according to the values of the world. I'm trying not be gay (don't you know that gay is awesome? You're in denial!), I'm a recovering mental patient (don't you know that mental illness is forever and ever? Recovery is not actually possible!), and I'm a Christian (This "Jesus" character is OK, as long you don't try to impose your values on me or live any differently from everyone else). Ridiculous. Also, I know what you mean about the looks and social connections thing. When I was burned out and my well-connected, white-collar family wanted nothing to do with me, I was expendable. Even professionals treated me with contempt. Then God healed me and now that I'm visibly healthy, reasonably attractive, and have all sorts of connections and some modest resources available to me, I'm suddenly a part of the community. Weird, huh?

Not so weird rather than a great testimony! How do you know you are healed?

 

[Christ_empowered]

You mean healed of the Bipolar/Schizophrenia/Schizoaffective (so many diagnoses for one 28 year old, lol) ?

Its not a matter of *not* taking meds, its a matter of realizing that God has healed me of excessive self-love and the sin that follows, so at most I need 1-2 meds, and I've even had shrinks recommend cutting the dose in half. That tell me that, at this point, I'm not a "mental patient" anymore; I'm on the road to recovery because God has seen fit to first correct a lot of my character flaws, then bless me with a good family and modest resources, and then tone down the mood swings and depressive episodes. One shrink I saw (they keep switching them up at the clinic I go to) said to someone regarding my case (I guess he didn't think I could overhear) that I might only need a tranquilizer when things get rough. God reduced the severity of my problems and made it possible for me to "toughen up" to handle what remained, so in a couple of years I think I may be over the whole meds thing completely.

 

[BornAgain]

You mean healed of the Bipolar/Schizophrenia/Schizoaffective (so many diagnoses for one 28 year old, lol) ?

Its not a matter of *not* taking meds, its a matter of realizing that God has healed me of excessive self-love and the sin that follows, so at most I need 1-2 meds, and I've even had shrinks recommend cutting the dose in half. That tell me that, at this point, I'm not a "mental patient" anymore; I'm on the road to recovery because God has seen fit to first correct a lot of my character flaws, then bless me with a good family and modest resources, and then tone down the mood swings and depressive episodes. One shrink I saw (they keep switching them up at the clinic I go to) said to someone regarding my case (I guess he didn't think I could overhear) that I might only need a tranquilizer when things get rough. God reduced the severity of my problems and made it possible for me to "toughen up" to handle what remained, so in a couple of years I think I may be over the whole meds thing completely.

Mental illness is the toughest thing to deal with let alone trying to diagnose...you sound like you really have a grip on it and appear to be very positive. I know a few people that are on meds and I think it has to be the right balance and learning how to cope and deal with it. I commend you for your insight, that takes a lot of strenght to even admit it. Thanks.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I'm beginning to understand why the world flip-flops so much on different issues--the world isn't black and white. Almost anything can be justified in one's own mind, it seems, and sometimes you can even eventually get large amounts of people to justify it. And things get all muddled and confuzzled from there.

You have to have a standard that's not set up by men.



Since eugenics was brought up--it reminded me about this book I'm reading called The Men Behind Hitler that talks about eugenics and it's relation to Hitler's actions. (You can read it here: http://www.toolan.com/hitler/index.html )
I'm also reading Hitler's Mein Komph currently. Sick man.
And yet, I think anyone could be capable of that kind of evil, given the wrong motives and put in a particular circumstance.



And me? By the world's standard I'm either a hateful jerk or a pretty nice person. Whatever they decide to judge me by, on certain beliefs I happen to hold or my actions.
By God's standards, I'm scum. Any good that is in me today is thanks to Him.

 

[AlexBC]

In Mein Kampf, doesn't Hitler say-

"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

 

[evenifigoalone]

He did. The conclusions he came to are certainly not from anything in the Bible, however.
According to what I've read so far (not just in the books I mentioned), he was largely influenced by some books he read as a young adult. And according to one source, those books were about improving the world through eugenics, or related to that.

 

[AlexBC]

He did. The conclusions he came to are certainly not from anything in the Bible, however.

True. Hitler wiped out 99.9 % of life on Earth and....oh, wait. Wrong person.