Predestination and Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

You wasted your time with that responce that didn't even address the issue we were talking about.
The question is....why would God elect one person and not the other?

Time is never wasted Cygnus. You're not the only one reading what is being said here.
Others are reading along.

Also, why do only YOU get to ask questions?
I believe I've answered many.

How about answering some of mine?

Again:
Does God love His creation?
If He does , WHY would he send any one of His creations to hell?
And since you believe He does, could you please explain HOW He is then to be
considered a Loving God...

Since the bible tells me He IS:
1 John 4:8b
GOD IS LOVE.

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

Amen ivdavid.
Predestination is definitely in the bible passages - but not double predestination.
Also, predestination refers to WHAT God had planned from the beginning:
The salvation plan
2 Timothy 2:9

And He also predestined us to be conformed to His Son
Ephesians 1:4
Romans 8:29

Double predestination changes the character of God, which is Love.
A loving God would not arbitrarily send anyone to hell.
Also, it would remove our responsibility for sin, as you've stated.

Wondering

What is meant by..."A loving God would not arbitrarily send anyone to hell."

 

[Cygnus]

Time is never wasted Cygnus. You're not the only one reading what is being said here.
Others are reading along.

Also, why do only YOU get to ask questions?
I believe I've answered many.

How about answering some of mine?

Again:
Does God love His creation?
If He does , WHY would he send any one of His creations to hell?
And since you believe He does, could you please explain HOW He is then to be
considered a Loving God...

Since the bible tells me He IS:
1 John 4:8b
GOD IS LOVE.

Wondering

You asked..."WHY would he send any one of His creations to hell?"....

I ask, What is meant by this verse? for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.... (Romans 3:23)
And this verse....For the wages of sin is death,....(Romans 6:23)

You're post sounds like God isn't just.

What is meant by..."For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Romans 9:15)

What is meant by "condemned already" ....Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.(John 3:18)

 

[GodsGrace]

You asked..."WHY would he send any one of His creations to hell?"....

I ask, What is meant by this verse? for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.... (Romans 3:23)
And this verse....For the wages of sin is death,....(Romans 6:23)

You're post sounds like God isn't just.

What is meant by..."For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Romans 9:15)

What is meant by "condemned already" ....Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.(John 3:18)

Post no. 461 is simple English. I leave it up to you to figure out what it means. No theology necessary.

As for the above:
You're doing it again Cygnus.

You REFUSE to answer questions.

I repeated my questions in my last post.

I'll repeat them again:

1. DOES GOD LOVE HIS CREATION? (MAN)
2. IF HE DOES, WHY WOULD HE SEND ANY OF HIS CREATIONS TO HELL (without giving them a chance at salvation).
3. AND IF HE DOES THE ABOVE, PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HE IS TO BE PERCEIVED AS A LOVING GOD.

...since the bible tells me He is:
1 John 4:8b
GOD IS LOVE

Thanks in advance for answering the above questions.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

O my wonderful Sister, you are so right. That brings up my memory of one conversation with my Brother Tom, who is not saved. He asked me about hell. I told him and he said thank you and didn't want to talk about spiritual things any longer. That was probably 35 years ago. Recently, he asked my Son Skip for the same information on hell. Skip gave him some good information. That's all Tom wanted. At least he's thinking and what you said about others not believing there is a hell, at least, the Holy Spirit has him dwelling on hell.

Tom is such a great human being, really!! So kind, thoughtful of others, and has helped me financially because he has been very successful in business. Tom likes the fact that I became a Pastor and has helped so many people, some even that he knows. But, for some reason, he has always been hard to the Gospel, we've never spoken about that.

I can't bear the fact that he might spend eternity away from the presence of Jesus our Lord of Whom you and I love so very much. A couple of years ago, Tom's Wife Mabel died of cancer. I stayed with Tom during the last two and a half weeks of her life. I was able to explain the Gospel to Mabel who was Catholic. Tom wouldn't let her respond favorably, he stopped the conversation.

About a year after Mabel died, Tom remarried a devout Catholic, Maryann, I think she's got him thinking on hell. Sooooooooooo, I've said all of this so that perhaps when you think about me or Tom, you might offer up a prayer that Tom and Maryann will get saved, thanks.

Chopper,
It saddens me that Tom stopped your conversation with Mabel. It frightens me how some people dislike God so.
Maybe they've never met Him, maybe they're mad at Him - who can know.

But God knows if Mabel heard and if she believed. This should give comfort.

As for Maryann, I know that Catholics have many wrong doctrine, but devout Catholics do believe in the saving work of Jesus and, indeed, Maryann may be a good influence on Tom.

He'll be in my prayers - May God open his heart to salvation.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Double predestination - Calvin's theory - teaches that God decides who will be saved and who will be condemned.
THIS is what I cannot agree to.

Common misunderstanding of Calvinism. Calvin had no idea who would or would not go to hell. Calvin didn't even know for sure that he himself was saved, so he could hardly accurately speculate on the fate of anyone else.

As to single predestination, it doesn't exist. Everyone in determinism, and even in freewillism is in fact at a minimum, single predestination. HOW? Everyone (for the most part) believes that the devil and his messengers are destined or predestined to hell. So there is single predestination in all camps of christian theology on this count. Sometimes people just don't recognize their own positions for what they are. IF then there is single predestination, and there are people that go to heaven, then there is also DUAL predestination.

And further, who is to say that is a bad thing (hell for devils) for them? They are anti-Christ spirits by their God made nature. I might prefer to call hell for them anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits.

Sometimes our own perspectives get in the way.

There is no question whatsoever that in this present life God does predestine who believes and who doesn't and even to what degree they believe or even what they believe, is all predestined.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper,
It saddens me that Tom stopped your conversation with Mabel. It frightens me how some people dislike God so.
Maybe they've never met Him, maybe they're mad at Him - who can know.

But God knows if Mabel heard and if she believed. This should give comfort.

As for Maryann, I know that Catholics have many wrong doctrine, but devout Catholics do believe in the saving work of Jesus and, indeed, Maryann may be a good influence on Tom.

He'll be in my prayers - May God open his heart to salvation.

Wondering

Thank you so very much.

 

[Cygnus]

Post no. 461 is simple English. I leave it up to you to figure out what it means. No theology necessary.

As for the above:
You're doing it again Cygnus.

You REFUSE to answer questions.

I repeated my questions in my last post.

I'll repeat them again:

1. DOES GOD LOVE HIS CREATION? (MAN)
2. IF HE DOES, WHY WOULD HE SEND ANY OF HIS CREATIONS TO HELL (without giving them a chance at salvation).
3. AND IF HE DOES THE ABOVE, PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HE IS TO BE PERCEIVED AS A LOVING GOD.

...since the bible tells me He is:
1 John 4:8b
GOD IS LOVE

Thanks in advance for answering the above questions.

W

1. DOES GOD LOVE HIS CREATION? (MAN)

God is JUST towards His creation (man) The love you speak of doesn't enter into it.

2. IF HE DOES, WHY WOULD HE SEND ANY OF HIS CREATIONS TO HELL (without giving them a chance at salvation).

You forget, God is not OBLIGATED to save anyone. You act as if God HAS to save His creation (man).

3. AND IF HE DOES THE ABOVE, PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HE IS TO BE PERCEIVED AS A LOVING GOD.

God loves the Son and gives the elect to the Son as a bride.

You present man as fallen but only skinned his knee....man fell a lot harder than that. A lot harder.

 

[Cygnus]

There ya go my friend. You just got a Chopper "Home Run". with this statement of yours Why were they saved? They were elect, God opened their heart and the believed. AND, I agree totally with this statement as well. It is God who places us in front of the Gospel...and opens our ears. I don't think we figure it out because we can't.

Ok, on to the next great theological difficulty. What do you propose we tackle next?

Perhaps this....what is the order of salvation?

 

[Jim Parker]

As to single predestination, it doesn't exist. Everyone in determinism, and even in freewillism is in fact at a minimum, single predestination. HOW? Everyone (for the most part) believes that the devil and his messengers are destined or predestined to hell.

Sorry; that's not logical.
The devil and his angels were not "predestined" to hell. They chose to rebel against God and were expelled from heaven.
That's not an example of predestination; it's an example of free will.

 

[Cygnus]

Sorry; that's not logical.
The devil and his angels were not "predestined" to hell. They chose to rebel against God and were expelled from heaven.
That's not an example of predestination; it's an example of free will.

Since the fall all of mankind is "predestined" for hell...so-to-speak. In fact humans freely choose hell unless God opens their heart.

 

[Jim Parker]

God is JUST towards His creation

That is false.
If God were just and sin was and offense against God, then, to be just, He would punish all men for their offenses.
But He does not punish, He forgives anyone who will repent.
That's not justice, it's mercy.
Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension comprise God's great act of mercy on behalf of mankind and all creation.

iakov the fool

 

[ivdavid]

Also, predestination refers to WHAT God had planned from the beginning:

I'd agree with that too. But where I think we differ in our beliefs is that - I'd go further than just the What and say God predetermines the Who too, who will form the remnant of election by grace to be saved. What I deny saying there is that God predestines the 'non-elect' to be condemned to hell - here I believe God waits in all forbearance and longsuffering, waiting that any might turn to Him of their own will.

I guess at the heart of it - we're all zealous that God's Name not be impugned.

So when we ask the question - who is to be blamed for man's perishing, we immediately say it cannot be God, therefore we impute it to man's 'freewill'. But if you acknowledge a man's 'freewill', then you consequently must concede that such a 'freewill' can accept God's salvation offer and believe on its own. But this gives at least infinitesimal credit to the flesh, for having done at least something pleasing to God, which thereby detracts that amount of credit due unto God alone, again impugning His glory.

On the other hand, in the process of giving all glory to God alone, if you end up stating that God decrees everything without factoring in what man does on his own in the flesh, then you make God the author of evil, again impugning His glory.

The Scriptures have masterfully balanced the scales - it states that man perishing is of his own accord having denied God's offer of salvation and he alone is to be blamed, given that God is not the author of sin ; and it states that man being saved is of God's grace alone and not of his own accord therein giving all glory to God alone, the flesh profiting to nothing.

I guess what Cygnus is asking is - how does one in the flesh obey and do anything pleasing to God, until they are regenerated in the spirit Rom 8:7-9 ? This line of questioning is what leads us to the doctrine of election and single predestination etc.

 

[Cygnus]

That is false.
If God were just and sin was and offense against God, then, to be just, He would punish all men for their offenses.
But He does not punish, He forgives anyone who will repent.
That's not justice, it's mercy.
Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension comprise God's great act of mercy on behalf of mankind and all creation.

iakov the fool

Justice will be realized on the unbelievers...and for the believers was realized on Christ.

 

[smaller]

Sorry; that's not logical.
The devil and his angels were not "predestined" to hell. They chose to rebel against God and were expelled from heaven.

Which heaven? 2 Cor. 12:2 got to numerO 3.

That's not an example of predestination; it's an example of free will.

Jesus said the devil was a liar from the beginning, presumably his own beginning. John 8:44. Don't see any freewill there and would suggest that the devil was made by God to "resist" God, and does so quite predictably.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

So, no, no freewill stories being bought on this end.

 

[smaller]

Since the fall all of mankind is "predestined" for hell...so-to-speak. In fact humans freely choose hell unless God opens their heart.

I'd call that a somewhat simplistic but common unfortunate notion.

Ya have to give credit to older orthodoxy's abilities to read and determine that technically speaking there is not one single named person in the entire Bible shown to be in hell now or in the future. So it's not as cut and dried as people propose or posture. Both "freewill" orthodoxy and some (if not most) camps of predestination concede to the fact that no one knows. Romans 10:5-7

We do know from scriptures that the devil and his messengers will be in the LoF at some point, presumably in the future, if we can even consider that "time" exists in such a state. And that does mean there is no "escape" for them, in particular. But as to the balance of humanity it's mere mortal speculations.

 

[Cygnus]

I'd call that a somewhat simplistic but common unfortunate notion.

Ya have to give credit to older orthodoxy's abilities to read and determine that technically speaking there is not one single named person in the entire Bible shown to be in hell now or in the future. So it's not as cut and dried as people propose or posture. Both "freewill" orthodoxy and some (if not most) camps of predestination concede to the fact that no one knows. Romans 10:5-7

We do know from scriptures that the devil and his messengers will be in the LoF at some point, presumably in the future, if we can even consider that "time" exists in such a state. And that does mean there is no "escape" for them, in particular. But as to the balance of humanity it's mere mortal speculations.

You can call it what you like...perhaps I should have said "perish"...whatever that looks like.
I also read Romans 10:5-7 and I don't think it applies to your comment. The " (that is, to bring down Christ)" part seems to not fit with your statement.

 

[Jim Parker]

Since the fall all of mankind is "predestined" for hell...so-to-speak.

That is false.
Since the fall, all men are subject to physical death because the wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23) and all sin. (Ro 3:23)
By His incarnation, death & resurrection, Christ has destroyed death. ( 1Co 15:54-55)
All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:53)
So the consequence of Adam's sin have been dealt with. Nobody stays dead.

Where anyone spends eternity, heaven or hell, is up to the individual. (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46)

In fact humans freely choose hell unless God opens their heart.

If people "freely choose" then it is not "predestination" any more than freely choosing chocolate predestines me to eat chocolate ice cream.
And, if it requires that God "open their hearts" in order to be saved and God does not open some people's hearts then those whose hearts God refuses to open God predestines to hell.
You can't have it both ways no matter how often and how hard you try.
There is no logical escape from double predestination. Single predestination is like a coin with only one side.

And, whether God opens anyone's heart is, again, up to the individual. (Rev 3:20)

To believe in predestination to heaven or hell or both is to believe in a god which has no love for much of mankind rather than the God revealed in the Bible Who "...so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)

Predestination to eternal life or hell is not a Biblical teaching.

iakov the fool

 

[Cygnus]

That is false.
Since the fall, all men are subject to physical death because the wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23) and all sin. (Ro 3:23)
By His incarnation, death & resurrection, Christ has destroyed death. ( 1Co 15:54-55)
All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:53)
So the consequence of Adam's sin have been dealt with. Nobody stays dead.

Where anyone spends eternity, heaven or hell, is up to the individual. (John 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46)

If people "freely choose" then it is not "predestination" any more than freely choosing chocolate predestines me to eat chocolate ice cream.
And, if it requires that God "open their hearts" in order to be saved and God does not open some people's hearts then those whose hearts God refuses to open God predestines to hell.
You can't have it both ways no matter how often and how hard you try.
There is no logical escape from double predestination. Single predestination is like a coin with only one side.

And, whether God opens anyone's heart is, again, up to the individual. (Rev 3:20)

To believe in predestination to heaven or hell or both is to believe in a god which has no love for much of mankind rather than the God revealed in the Bible Who "...so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)

Predestination to eternal life or hell is not a Biblical teaching.

iakov the fool

Why did you stop at verse 17? That kinda has me puzzled. Verse 18 continues with....18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Already condemned. Did you read it? Everyone is PREDESTINED to perish...condemned...unless they believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[smaller]

You can call it what you like...perhaps I should have said "perish"...whatever that looks like.
I also read Romans 10:5-7 and I don't think it applies to your comment. The " (that is, to bring down Christ)" part seems to not fit with your statement.

I had to concede to the same fact that one of the 20th century's most acclaimed christian theologian's, Karl Barth, conceded to, that Gods Prevailing Grace in Christ can not be effectively ruled out for any person. Yes, a determinist/predeterminist saw that fact too. And orthodoxy says the same thing. There are of course hardliners who will insist to disagree but factually speaking....it's a fact. Believing that any person has to be in hell is not a mandatory position for adhering to determinism, technically speaking.