Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[OzSpen]

well not really - the bible word is Godhead - that would be ok to call Father Son and Holy Spirit the Godhead imo

even judaism uses the term Godhead

Godhead does not mean biblia (Bible). Seems to me you have added to Scripture with your explanation of the use of the word, Bible, as meaning Godhead.

 

[Truthfrees]

What is the hypostatic union? David Mathis of Desiring God Ministries explained:

“Hypostatic union” sounds fancy in English, but it’s actually a simple term. Hypostatic means personal. The hypostatic union is the personal union of Jesus’s two natures.“The hypostatic union is the mysterious joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.”Jesus has two complete natures: one fully human and one fully divine. What the doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches is that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining (mysterious though it be) of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.
Should we give up on using omniscience, omnipotence, immanence, immutability, eternal security and total depravity?

imo if we read scripture cover to cover over and over we would learn these concepts from the bible words wouldn't we? -

shouldn't these concepts come clear from reading and studying scripture? -

if not where did these concepts come from? - and why should we read something other than the bible to understand what God says about everything?

 

[Truthfrees]

You must be spiritually blind.
I will post a new thread about this pronto.

there is no need to be unkind - please simply say you disagree without calling someone names

 

[DiscipleDave]

Some believe in eternal security, or OSAS.
Some believe in conditional security or OSNAS.

Can believing in incorrect doctrine cause one to lose their salvation?
Please think about this before answer a knee jerk NO....since we many times say that doctrine does not save us.
I've made this statement myself.

But...could a doctrine CAUSE us, in some way, to endanger our soul?
Hyper grace would be another concept....

What is your opinion?

Any doctrine that a person believes in that is contrary to the Word of God, is a doctrine that could cause Salvation issues.
Jesus Christ is the Word, if you believe something that is contrary to the Word, you believe something that is contrary to Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Paul plainly taught that what he teaches are commandments from Jesus Christ. Therefore if you believe something contrary to what Paul taught, then you believe contrary to the commandments of Jesus Christ.
To believe in Jesus is to believe in His Word.
If you believe something that is contrary to His Word, then how are you believing in Jesus?

 

[Senior]

there is no need to be unkind - please simply say you disagree without calling someone names

I apologize!

 

[ezra]

You must be spiritually blind.
I will post a new thread about this pronto.

make sure it says you can lose salvation and no i am not spiritually blind thank you very much might i add the words you can not lose salvation is not there. what is there he is able to keep us . that we may know we have eternal life .that he is able to keep us from falling /stumbling.. it is the Gift of God .no man can pluck us out of the fathers hand . the words eternal are there man made up the phrase eternal security once saved always saved. you can lose your salvation .these was made up to support our belief

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees,

I commend you for engaging in study of the Hebrew and Greek languages on your own.

In this post, it would have been helpful to me if you had illustrated your points with examples.

You stated:

the thing is when you read scripture in greek and hebrew it becomes so ALIVE and EXCITING you can hardly contain yourself at the clear and amazing things God says​

I'm pleased you've found it that way but I found it could be as 'confusing' in some places in the Greek as in English. e.g. Is the aorist tense constative, ingressive, culminative, gnomic, epistolary, or dramatic?

In conditional clauses (in Greek), they can be classified as: (1) supposition from the viewpoint of reality; (2) Supposition from the viewpoint of probability; (3) Simple condition; (4) Contrary to fact condition; (5) The more probable future condition; and (6) The less probable future condition.

They are only a fraction of the nuances of the Greek language that many times make translation a challenge.

But you stated: 'read scripture in greek and hebrew it becomes so ALIVE and EXCITING you can hardly contain yourself at the clear and amazing things God says'.

The Greek may be clear to you but it is not always clear to me. There is a lot of work to do with grammar, etymology of a word, and context to arrive at a satisfactory translation.

For my BA with a minor in Greek I used The Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, H E Dana and JR Mantey (1955. The Macmillan Company).

Oz

ok - very good point - thank you for posting this - i am thinking about what you have just said

so are you saying that your study of greek nt made the bible more confusing and less enjoyable?

and from your other posts in this thread are you saying that studying the works of bible scholars makes the bible more clear and enjoyable for you?

if so then i apologize if i made it sound like anything other than my way of enjoying scripture is wrong - i didn't mean to do that

i would like to hear more about your method of studying scripture from what sounds like a scholarly method

i was impressed as a young christian to read scripture over and over cover to cover so that God's words filled my spiritual and natural senses - and then pray and ask God to speak to me what He wanted to say to me today from His words -

so i have always used the bible as the voice of God to teach me how to live in His will today - reading in greek and hebrew was exciting to me - but i didn't care about the tenses because i use scripture to live today - not so much study yesterday or ancient times - i want to know the heart of God through scripture

apologies if my unscholarly tendencies seem disrespectful of the immense effort and focus scholars put into their work - i will be more mindful of that in future

 

[OzSpen]

actually the greek word is metamnous - change your mind

this is kinda cool because God tells us to CHANGE OUR MIND - about what? - imo God wants us to change our mind about who is right and who is wrong - God is right and we are wrong - and so we should start listening to God

Truthfrees,

There is no such word in the Greek language as metamnous. I've checked all of my lexicons, including the Analytical Greek Lexicon.

The word is metanoia, which means 'a change of mind ... repentance, turning about, conversion ... repentance that leads to God' (Acts 20;21; 26:20; Matt 3:8, 11) ... need repentance or conversion (Lk 15:7) ... preach repentance that leads to the forgiveness of sins (Lk 24:47) [Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich 1957:513-514].

Instead of metanoia meaning 'God wants us to change our mind about who is right and who is wrong - God is right and we are wrong' it means a change of mind through repentance and faith - Christian conversion. It means God causing a U-turn in our lives internally, and especially with the mind.

Oz

Works consulted

Bauer, W, tr & ed by Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

 

[Truthfrees]

Godhead does not mean biblia (Bible). Seems to me you have added to Scripture with your explanation of the use of the word, Bible, as meaning Godhead.

i meant the bible word for Trinity is Godhead - sorry

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees,

There is no such word in the Greek language as metamnous. I've checked all of my lexicons, including the Analytical Greek Lexicon.

The word is metanoia, which means 'a change of mind ... repentance, turning about, conversion ... repentance that leads to God' (Acts 20;21; 26:20; Matt 3:8, 11) ... need repentance or conversion (Lk 15:7) ... preach repentance that leads to the forgiveness of sins (Lk 24:47) [Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich 1957:513-514].

Instead of metanoia meaning 'God wants us to change our mind about who is right and who is wrong - God is right and we are wrong' it means a change of mind through repentance and faith - Christian conversion. It means God causing a U-turn in our lives internally, and especially with the mind.

Oz

Works consulted

Bauer, W, tr & ed by Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

meta means change - nous means mind/intellect/ sense/wit

i will look for links for this - but thank you for posting - this is very interesting what you are saying -

words in any language consists of parts

in german for instance a glove is really called a hand shoe - so when german english dictionaries give you the meaning they do not say hand shoe they say glove

it is the same in greek and hebrew - break the words into parts and it gets exciting - take the dictionary meaning and it is as you said - and that is ok too - but i like studying the root meanings because it gets really powerful

in french potatoe is apple of the earth - that is interesting to me to know that the french think of a potato as an underground apple

brussel sprouts in french are little cabbages - interesting

i love words and i love languages -

i see what you are saying though and i will think about it - i for sure am much more interested in the root - it is more revealing - and creates word pictures

same with paleo hebrew - it is more like word pictures

all original ancient languages were pictorial - words meant more to the ancients than they do today imo - we just say words today - some of them big and complicated - the ancients created pictures - small and easy to understand concepts - i like that -

the bible is 3500 - 2000 years old - they were still pictorial back then - as per hieroglyphs and paleo scripts

 

[acts 28]

That's not correct though. John 14:6 and 1 Corinthians 3 both speak about Jesus being the foundation. Not Paul

Did Christ EVER tell you how to be saved --Nooooooooooooooo!. Did Christ EVER tell you that you can possibly spend eternity in the Highest Heaven --Noooooooooooooooo!. The 2 most important things and Christ had no answer for them. Actually, that's because His ministry had absolutely nothing to do with Gentiles. That's what He selected and trained Paul for. It's called delegation of authority. Paul did a great job handing those 2 questions. Jesus Christ is the foundation, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs?

 

[OzSpen]

ok - very good point - thank you for posting this - i am thinking about what you have just said

so are you saying that your study of greek nt made the bible more confusing and less enjoyable?

Truthfrees,

I only have time to pursue a few of your points briefly.

No, my study of Scripture using the original languages (I still forget Greek conjugations and declensions so I need to use an Analytical Lexicon that parses all Greek words) has been very enjoyable, but it takes much more time and work than it did when I was a new Christian.

I'm grateful for all of the teachers God has given to the church through Greek and Hebrew grammarians and commentators. I use them when I get caught with not understanding the original language.

For example, a few year ago I battled to understand the meaning of 1 Tim 2:15 (ESV): 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control'. How can that be?

One of the finest evangelical Greek scholars in the world today is Gordon Fee. He has a very readable commentary on 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Read his comments on 1 Tim 2:15 HERE. His contextual understanding of 2:12 was an eye-opener for me.

and from your other posts in this thread are you saying that studying the works of bible scholars makes the bible more clear and enjoyable for you?

if so then i apologize if i made it sound like anything other than my way of enjoying scripture is wrong - i didn't mean to do that

i would like to hear more about your method of studying scripture from what sounds like a scholarly method

Studying the Bible is very enjoyable for me, but I tend to go into more detail than is needed for a basic Bible study. If you could ask the seniors' Bible study group which I lead, they would endorse what I said. This year we've studied life after death for believers and unbelievers.

No, I don't use a 'scholarly method' for studying Scripture. I use a basic grammatical, contextual, historical, cultural method that all serious students of the Word should use.

If you and others want a basic Bible study method, take a read of
How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth: Fourth Edition / Special edition ..
by Gordon D Fee and Douglas Stuart.

so i have always used the bible as the voice of God to teach me how to live in His will today - reading in greek and hebrew was exciting to me - but i didn't care about the tenses because i use scripture to live today - not so much study yesterday or ancient times - i want to know the heart of God through scripture

I find subjectively using the Bible as the voice of God to be dangerous as the Bible wasn't written in a 21st century context. Instead, it is a first century document that has many applications for today. I must not confuse the interpretation of Scripture with application of Scripture to my life.

You don't care about the Greek tenses??? I think you had better become familiar with the meaning of Greek tenses because they are generally unlike English tenses. Greek tenses depend on the KIND of action and not generally on the TIME of action (except for the future tense).

Please tell me your understanding of John 5:24 without considering the nature of the Greek tenses. The verse states:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life (John 5:24 ESV).​

​

You stated: "i didn't care about the tenses because i use scripture to live today - not so much study yesterday or ancient times".

Anything written in the Bible is the study of ancient times.

How are you going to live this Scripture today?

​

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death (Lev 20:10 ESV).​

That reply is longer than I anticipated. Brekky is calling.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

meta means change - nous means mind/intellect/ sense/wit

i will look for links for this - but thank you for posting - this is very interesting what you are saying -

words in any language consists of parts

in german for instance a glove is really called a hand shoe - so when german english dictionaries give you the meaning they do not say hand shoe they say glove

it is the same in greek and hebrew - break the words into parts and it gets exciting - take the dictionary meaning and it is as you said - and that is ok too - but i like studying the root meanings because it gets really powerful

in french potatoe is apple of the earth - that is interesting to me to know that the french think of a potato as an underground apple

brussel sprouts in french are little cabbages - interesting

i love words and i love languages -

i see what you are saying though and i will think about it - i for sure am much more interested in the root - it is more revealing - and creates word pictures

same with paleo hebrew - is is more like word pictures

all original ancient languages were pictorial - words meant more to the ancients than they do today imo - we just say words today - some of them big and complicated - the ancients created pictures - small and easy to understand concepts - i like that -

the bible is 3500 - 2000 years old - they were still pictorial back then - as per hieroglyphs and paleo scripts

Nevertheless, metamnous is not a Greek word.

 

[Truthfrees]

Did Christ EVER tell you how to be saved --Nooooooooooooooo!. Did Christ EVER tell you that you can possibly spend eternity in the Highest Heaven --Noooooooooooooooo!. The 2 most important things and Christ had no answer for them. Actually, that's because His ministry had absolutely nothing to do with Gentiles. That's what He selected and trained Paul for. It's called delegation of authority. Paul did a great job handing those 2 questions. Jesus Christ is the foundation, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs?

Jesus said He was going to His Father to get mansions ready for us - that sounds like spending eternity in highest heaven

Jesus said unless you believe He is who He says He is - the Light of the world - the door to the Father - etc you do not have eternal life - that sounds like a pretty simple explanation of how to be saved

if paul chose to expound on what Jesus already said that doesn't mean Jesus' words are of no value - His words are true and pure words - no one else other than the words of the Father Son Holy Spirit are pure words - RED words trump all other words

 

[stovebolts]

amen - and isn't the wrath of God tied somewhat to the reverential fear/respect/awe of God?

the way I understand it, yes.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees,

I only have time to pursue a few of your points briefly.

No, my study of Scripture using the original languages (I still forget Greek conjugations and declensions so I need to use an Analytical Lexicon that parses all Greek words) has been very enjoyable, but it takes much more time and work than it did when I was a new Christian.

I'm grateful for all of the teachers God has given to the church through Greek and Hebrew grammarians and commentators. I use them when I get caught with not understanding the original language.

For example, a few year ago I battled to understand the meaning of 1 Tim 2:15 (ESV): 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control'. How can that be?

One of the finest evangelical Greek scholars in the world today is Gordon Fee. He has a very readable commentary on 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Read his comments on 1 Tim 2:15 HERE. His contextual understanding of 2:12 was an eye-opener for me.



Studying the Bible is very enjoyable for me, but I tend to go into more detail than is needed for a basic Bible study. If you could ask the seniors' Bible study group which I lead, they would endorse what I said. This year we've studied life after death for believers and unbelievers.

No, I don't use a 'scholarly method' for studying Scripture. I use a basic grammatical, contextual, historical, cultural method that all serious students of the Word should use.

If you and others want a basic Bible study method, take a read of
How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth: Fourth Edition / Special edition ..
by Gordon D Fee and Douglas Stuart.



I find subjectively using the Bible as the voice of God to be dangerous as the Bible wasn't written in a 21st century context. Instead, it is a first century document that has many applications for today. I must not confuse the interpretation of Scripture with application of Scripture to my life.

You don't care about the Greek tenses??? I think you had better become familiar with the meaning of Greek tenses because they are generally unlike English tenses. Greek tenses depend on the KIND of action and not generally on the TIME of action (except for the future tense).

Please tell me your understanding of John 5:24 without considering the nature of the Greek tenses. The verse states:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life (John 5:24 ESV).​

​

You stated: "i didn't care about the tenses because i use scripture to live today - not so much study yesterday or ancient times".

Anything written in the Bible is the study of ancient times.

How are you going to live this Scripture today?

​

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death (Lev 20:10 ESV).​

That reply is longer than I anticipated. Brekky is calling.

Oz

ok - thanks for clarifying - i was thinking of only past present future as time tenses - poor word choices on my part

i also meant that i read the bible to find out how to apply it to my daily life - so what they did back in ancient times has meaning to me if it helps me to apply scripture today to my life -

adultery is still the same today as then -

men not dressing in women's clothes has different meanings today than it did then - everyone wears pants today

praying without ceasing means the same today

so what i meant is i am not reading the bible to study the people of the past so much - i want to follow them as they followed Christ

i am very interested though in how Christ lived - i for sure want to follow His footsteps as closely as i can as far as it applies to me - being i am not a messiah saving anyone - i am a disciple of Christ - wanting to imitate Him in the ways He wants me to imitate Him

would you be interested in teaching us greek here?

that would be awesome if you would be interested

StoveBolts what do you think about us learning greek here if someone like Ozpen is interested? PS. OZ IS TOO BUSY TO DO THIS SO WE NEED TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE

 

[ezra]

@StoveBolts what do you think about us learning greek here if someone like Ozpen is interested?

DO IT

 

[JLB]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was the 100% Israel Gospel of the Kingdom, which has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation and nothing at all to do with any Gentile living today.

There is only one Gospel.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Mt 15:24. PERIOD!!!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ selected Paul to be the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles. For Gentiles, Paul is the very LAST WORD above everybody, including Christ,

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48


Wasn’t Cornelius a Gentile?



JLB