Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[for_his_glory]

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. Their desire was to be like God and saw no wrong with their decision, but when the knowledge of good and evil was opened before them it was at that time they knew they disobeyed God and tried to hide their shame. The consequence of their disobedience was God casting them out of the beautiful garden and casting them out into a sinful world.

There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal (blood) sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final blood sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.

Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.

David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what they learn, Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Matthew 18:3 Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is saying here is that we need to be converted in all humility like that of a child as their example of humility as being humble and without pride.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? As a child we take on our physical attributes from our physical parents, but our spirit we get from God when he breathed live into us. God created us in His image and if we were already born with a sin nature that knew evil then that would mean Gods image would be evil since we are created in His image. But we know that is not the case, because in God there is no evil and we are born without evil in us, but are born into an evil world.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. If we were conceived and born with evil in us then how could we wax worse in evil and be deceived by others as we would already be evil, but again we are made in the pure image of God so how can evil be found in us before we were even born from the womb.

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

How do we get an honest and good heart if we are not born with one as it is only by the evil that is in the world that will cause us to be deceived if we lust after it. Once again, train up a child in the way they should go and they will not turn from it. Parents are the ones who we get our attributes from as a child as we are influenced by what we see and hear around us.

 

[Christ the King]

True, we are plagued by sin

How do we get an honest and good heart...
I was brought up in such a loving family and although I strayed from God to become a prodigal son I still think that i was still a good person, or had some goodness in me at least.

I can definitely attribute that to my parents.
It goes to show how important a stable family is

 

[OzSpen]

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

FHG,

I'd like some clarification here: What do you mean by the sin nature? Would you please define it for me?

Are you saying that every human being is born sinless and only acquires sin through the devil's activity and or the world we live in?

If we are not born with sin, please help me to understand how I want to lie and even think of stealing.

How does your view harmonise with Rom 5:12 (NET): 'So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned'.

Oz

 

[WIP]

I don't think being sinful and having a sinful nature are the same thing. The way I view it, being sinful means that we are full of sin already at birth. Having a sinful nature means that we have the propensity for being sinful and that shows up quite early in our lives.

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

I'd like some clarification here: What do you mean by the sin nature? Would you please define it for me?

Are you saying that every human being is born sinless and only acquires sin through the devil's activity and or the world we live in?

If we are not born with sin, please help me to understand how I want to lie and even think of stealing.

How does your view harmonise with Rom 5:12 (NET): 'So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned'.

Oz

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Sin nature is a natural inclination to sin by the choices we make after we are born. No one has taught their child to lie or be selfish, it just comes naturally.

We are not born with sin as each one of us is created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26, 27, and there is no sin within His image. God formed us in our mothers womb and breathed life into us, making us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Psalms 139:13. But, each one of us turned distant from God after we were born, Psalms 58:3.

Romans 5:12 sin did enter the world through one man named Adam who chose to disobey God causing him to lose fellowship with God. It was a Spiritual death, not physical, and so Spiritual death spread to all people.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't think being sinful and having a sinful nature are the same thing. The way I view it, being sinful means that we are full of sin already at birth. Having a sinful nature means that we have the propensity for being sinful and that shows up quite early in our lives.

I agree with this as we knew no sin until we were born into a sinful world and it came naturally.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't think being sinful and having a sinful nature are the same thing. The way I view it, being sinful means that we are full of sin already at birth. Having a sinful nature means that we have the propensity for being sinful and that shows up quite early in our lives.

WIP,

The OP deals with being 'born with a sin nature'. FHG rejects this teaching, stating: 'Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin.... David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner.... These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them'.

Perhaps that is the correct way to look at the sinful nature. I understand two ways of looking at the issue:

1. Each person's life was in Adam when he sinned, so the sin nature is inherited from him, along with its punishment. Death came into the world because of Adam's sin and this led to our sin (Rom 3:23). Evangelical theologian, Charles Hodge, took this position.

2. Rom 5:12 states that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). However, we experience sin and death because each of us sins and is guilty for our own sin, not the sin of Adam. However, the door to each person of the human race sinning was opened by Adam and Eve.

• Psalm 58:3 (NIV) states, 'Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies'. I can't see any way around the fact that every human being has a fallen nature because we are born that way.
• Eph 2:3 (NIV) supports this view: 'All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath'.

This we know: God has provided a solution to the sin nature and that is in the death of Christ.

Having a fallen/sinful nature means it is natural for us to sin. Sin doesn't come from our environment or some sinful habits we have acquired. 'It is a basic inclination. One does not have to be taught to sin' (Geisler 2004:149).

Oz

 

[jerry63935]

Having a sinful nature means that we have the propensity for being sinful and that shows up quite early in our lives.

i have to agree with this.. most all of us has raised kids. ask them if they did it even being caught red handed ..will deny it... it comes natural and the sin nature is there for all of us. last summer i was stopped for speeding on the way to a church camp meeting. i couldn't find my insurance card .he dropped the speeding issued a no insurance.. he gave me break all i had to do. was take the insurance card that showed i did have insurance to the prosecuting attny office. the ticket was canceled . when i met the state patrol .i knew i was had.. in the mean time i hurried put my seat belt on.. after he was done with the ticket ,,he asked if i had it on before he pulled me over. i said YES i lied before even thinking about it.. just save $10.00 . i was convicted by God had ask for forgiveness

 

[for_his_glory]

WIP,



The OP deals with being 'born with a sin nature'. FHG rejects this teaching, stating: 'Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin.... David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner.... These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them'.

Perhaps that is the correct way to look at the sinful nature. I understand two ways of looking at the issue:

1. Each person's life was in Adam when he sinned, so the sin nature is inherited from him, along with its punishment. Death came into the world because of Adam's sin and this led to our sin (Rom 3:23). Evangelical theologian, Charles Hodge, took this position.

2. Rom 5:12 states that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). However, we experience sin and death because each of us sins and is guilty for our own sin, not the sin of Adam. However, the door to each person of the human race sinning was opened by Adam and Eve.

• Psalm 58:3 (NIV) states, 'Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies'. I can't see any way around the fact that every human being has a fallen nature because we are born that way.
• Eph 2:3 (NIV) supports this view: 'All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath'.

This we know: God has provided a solution to the sin nature and that is in the death of Christ.

Having a fallen/sinful nature means it is natural for us to sin. Sin doesn't come from our environment or some sinful habits we have acquired. 'It is a basic inclination. One does not have to be taught to sin' (Geisler 2004:149).

Oz

I agree with most of what you present here, except that we are born with a sin nature.

Yes, I do reject the teachings that say we are born with a sin nature as that would go against the characteristics of the perfection of God as we are created in His image as He formed us in our mothers womb.

It is only after birth when we arrive into a sinful world that we have a natural inclination to be disobedient that causes us to sin. David said "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Even after birth the wicked go astray from the womb, Psalms 51:5; 58:3.

So, like Adam part of his character had to have possibly been a natural inclination to sin and was activated when he was deceived and fell to temptation like everyone after him losing that fellowship with God in need of redemption.

We inherit from Adam the natural inclination to sin as we do not inherit his sin that causes us to sin. It's disobedience within each one of us after we are born that causes us to sin against our parents and against God.

 

[WIP]

Having a fallen/sinful nature means it is natural for us to sin. Sin doesn't come from our environment or some sinful habits we have acquired. 'It is a basic inclination. One does not have to be taught to sin' (Geisler 2004:149).

Absolutely agree with this. After all, is this not a definition of a sin nature?

 

[WIP]

I agree with most of what you present here, except that we are born with a sin nature.

Yes, I do reject the teachings that say we are born with a sin nature as that would go against the characteristics of the perfection of God as we are created in His image as He formed us in our mothers womb.

It is only after birth when we arrive into a sinful world that we have a natural inclination to be disobedient that causes us to sin. David said "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Even after birth the wicked go astray from the womb, Psalms 51:5; 58:3.

So, like Adam part of his character had to have possibly been a natural inclination to sin and was activated when he was deceived and fell to temptation like everyone after him losing that fellowship with God in need of redemption.

We inherit from Adam the natural inclination to sin as we do not inherit his sin that causes us to sin. It's disobedience within each one of us after we are born that causes us to sin against our parents and against God.

Eve had a sin nature. If she didn't she would not have fallen for Satan's lie and given in to the temptation to "be like God." Adam had a sin nature. If he didn't he too would have been able to resist Satan's attempt to deceive him. Satan exposed their sin nature. They were both sinless until that moment when they gave in to their sin nature.

 

[OzSpen]

It is only after birth when we arrive into a sinful world that we have a natural inclination to be disobedient that causes us to sin. David said "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Even after birth the wicked go astray from the womb, Psalms 51:5; 58:3.

FHG,

I don't think you are reading Ps 51:5 correctly as it states we are 'sinful from the time my mother conceived me'. Conception is the start of my sinful nature.

Therefore, I sin because I have a sin nature from conception or original sin.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Eve had a sin nature. If she didn't she would not have fallen for Satan's lie and given in to the temptation to "be like God." Adam had a sin nature. If he didn't he too would have been able to resist Satan's attempt to deceive him. Satan exposed their sin nature. They were both sinless until that moment when they gave in to their sin nature.

WIP,

I recommend a read of: The sin nature - What is it?

It comes to different biblical conclusions to what you've presented here.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, I do reject the teachings that say we are born with a sin nature as that would go against the characteristics of the perfection of God as we are created in His image as He formed us in our mothers womb.

FHG,

What do you understand by the statement that all people are created in the image of God? What does that mean for human beings?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Eve had a sin nature. If she didn't she would not have fallen for Satan's lie and given in to the temptation to "be like God." Adam had a sin nature. If he didn't he too would have been able to resist Satan's attempt to deceive him. Satan exposed their sin nature. They were both sinless until that moment when they gave in to their sin nature.

WIP,

How could Eve have had a sin nature before she fell into sin because after he created man and woman, God said,

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.​

​

28 God blessed them and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.’​

​

29 Then God said, ‘I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground – everything that has the breath of life in it – I give every green plant for food.’ And it was so.​

​

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning – the sixth day (John 1:27-31 NIV).​

Adam & Eve were good and not sinful before they sinned in Gen. 3.

I don't know why you've introduced theology into the text (i.e. Adam & Eve had a sin nature and that caused them to fall for Satan's temptation) that is not there.

Oz

 

[WIP]

WIP,

How could Eve have had a sin nature before she fell into sin because after he created man and woman, God said,

So God created mankind in his own image,​

in the image of God he created them;​

male and female he created them.​

​

28 God blessed them and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.’​

​

29 Then God said, ‘I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground – everything that has the breath of life in it – I give every green plant for food.’ And it was so.​

​

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning – the sixth day (John 1:27-31 NIV).​

Adam & Eve were good and not sinful before they sinned in Gen. 3.

I don't know why you've introduced theology into the text (i.e. Adam & Eve had a sin nature and that caused them to fall for Satan's temptation) that is not there.

Oz

My question is how could Satan have deceived Eve by presenting her with the lure to "be like God" if she didn't have a sin nature? I'm thinking that if it was not in her nature she would be content with who she was and Satan's lure would have no effect.

This also brings into question the purpose of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Is that too a form of a test or, if I dare say temptation, to validate our love for God? I know the Bible says that God does not tempt us so then what was the purpose for placing the tree in the garden and then forbidding man from partaking?

 

[JLB]

My question is how could Satan have deceived Eve by presenting her with the lure to "be like God" if she didn't have a sin nature?

She was defiled by Satan; by what came out of Satan’s heart as he communicated with Eve.


Jesus taught us the principle of defilement:


And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:20-23


Notice that Jesus did not communicate (commune) with Satan but only said.... It is written, and quoted the word of God.


Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:3-4


When God speaks to use it imparts faith and grace.

Faith comes by hearing God’s word (Rhema).


We also are called to impart grace to others out of a heart filled with God’s Spirit.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. Ephesians 4:29


Proverbs says it this way —


Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23


Issue refers to a flow or a river, that comes from our heart, and flows into others.


We have the ability to impart death, that which is corrupt, or life, that which is grace; a river of life giving water of the Spirit.


Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:13-14


again


He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38-39



If the Spirit of Life flows out of our Lord into us.


Imagine what flows out of Satan.

The spirit of antichrist; death.


Notice it wasn’t until Eve had this conversation with Satan that she “saw” that the tree was


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:1-6


Her desires became corrupt and self centered, she became blind to the truth of what God had commanded, and sought to gratify the desires of her eyes; the lust of the eyes.


The Point: God did not creat Adam and Eve with a sin nature.






JLB

 

[OzSpen]

My question is how could Satan have deceived Eve by presenting her with the lure to "be like God" if she didn't have a sin nature? I'm thinking that if it was not in her nature she would be content with who she was and Satan's lure would have no effect.

This also brings into question the purpose of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Is that too a form of a test or, if I dare say temptation, to validate our love for God? I know the Bible says that God does not tempt us so then what was the purpose for placing the tree in the garden and then forbidding man from partaking?

WIP,

Something for you to chew on as I head to my Dr:

• What was the power of Eve's free will?
• How can you say she had a sin nature before the Fall when God says all he created, including human beings was 'good' and not sinful?
• What does the context of Gen 2 tell us about the purpose of the tree (singular) of the knowledge of good and evil?
• Beware of arguing from silence. You know what that's called!

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

I don't think you are reading Ps 51:5 correctly as it states we are 'sinful from the time my mother conceived me'. Conception is the start of my sinful nature.

Therefore, I sin because I have a sin nature from conception or original sin.

Oz

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
I understand this verse to say I was brought forth into a sinful world as my mother who is a sinner conceived me. I'm not adding to or taking away from that vs, but only giving how I understand it.

We were not created with a sin nature as God created us as children, innocent not knowing good from evil as we were created for His good pleasure. The sin nature is the existing nature of the flesh as by one man sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12, and continues with every generation who walk in disobedience to God's commands.

God's plan of salvation through Christ was planned out before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-21, as God also created us with free will to make our own choices, Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28.

The knowledge of good and evil was not known until Adam and Eve, who BTW were created full adults and not children, nor did they come out of a womb, were enticed as the were deceived by Satan working through the serpent by what looked good and pleasing to them. Not everything that looks good and pleasing to the flesh is good for us. Children do not understand what good and evil is until they are taught what obedience means, Proverbs 22:6.

 

[jerry63935]

WIP,

Something for you to chew on as I head to my Dr:

• What was the power of Eve's free will?
• How can you say she had a sin nature before the Fall when God says all he created, including human beings was 'good' and not sinful?
• What does the context of Gen 2 tell us about the purpose of the tree (singular) of the knowledge of good and evil?
• Beware of arguing from silence. You know what that's called!

Oz

we really dont know with adam and eve most feel it was a time of testing . i do many what ifs and why are not answered . we do know He ( GOD) gave orders not to to bother the tree . question why did he even put the tree there. we simply dont know