Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[OzSpen]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
I understand this verse to say I was brought forth into a sinful world as my mother who is a sinner conceived me. I'm not adding to or taking away from that vs, but only giving how I understand it.

We were not created with a sin nature as God created us as children, innocent not knowing good from evil as we were created for His good pleasure. The sin nature is the existing nature of the flesh as by one man sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12, and continues with every generation who walk in disobedience to God's commands.

God's plan of salvation through Christ was planned out before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-21, as God also created us with free will to make our own choices, Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28.

The knowledge of good and evil was not known until Adam and Eve, who BTW were created full adults and not children, nor did they come out of a womb, were enticed as the were deceived by Satan working through the serpent by what looked good and pleasing to them. Not everything that looks good and pleasing to the flesh is good for us. Children do not understand what good and evil is until they are taught what obedience means, Proverbs 22:6.

Ps 51:5, 'in sin my mother conceived me'. You were a sinner before you were born, according to this Scripture.

 

[Edward]

David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

I didn't understand how this was possible before but I am beginning to understand it.
When Adam & Eve fell, their spirit died so there was only a soul and body then. The spirit needed to be born again! And all of us were born with a dead spirit and in that way we were able to be born into sin...only a soul and a body. After we're born again (in spirit) then we are saved and have a spirit within us. And the Lord's Spirit and presence in us.

 

[JLB]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
I understand this verse to say I was brought forth into a sinful world as my mother who is a sinner conceived me. I'm not adding to or taking away from that vs, but only giving how I understand it.

Yes. This is true of David as well as all of Adam’s off spring.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

What do you understand by the statement that all people are created in the image of God? What does that mean for human beings?

Oz

The image of God is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance as these are the fruits of His Spirit/character, Galatians 5:22, 23. If we are walking in the love of God, which is His image we were created in, then we are walking in obedience to His commands He has given us to walk in

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

 

[JLB]

I didn't understand how this was possible before but I am beginning to understand it.
When Adam & Eve fell, their spirit died so there was only a soul and body then. The spirit needed to be born again! And all of us were born with a dead spirit and in that way we were able to be born into sin...only a soul and a body. After we're born again (in spirit) then we are saved and have a spirit within us. And the Lord's Spirit and presence in us.

Each human being is spirit soul and body.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23


When we are born, we are born spiritually dead, because we are conceived in death; spiritual death.


Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12



This is why we must be born again; spiritually.


If we didn’t have a spirit, we would not be alive.

Death is when our spirit leaves our body.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

The image of God is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance as these are the fruits of His Spirit/character, Galatians 5:22, 23. If we are walking in the love of God, which is His image we were created in, then we are walking in obedience to His commands He has given us to walk in

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Those are attributes of God and fruit of the Spirit for human beings. They don't explain the meaning of being made in 'the image of God'.

 

[for_his_glory]

we really dont know with adam and eve most feel it was a time of testing . i do many what ifs and why are not answered . we do know He ( GOD) gave orders not to to bother the tree . question why did he even put the tree there. we simply dont know

This scripture popped in my mind after reading that it might have been a time of testing for Adam and Eve as we all have our times of testing through temptations. I too question why God planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil and can only see it as rebuking temptation as we stay obedient to God's commands.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[OzSpen]

The image of God is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance as these are the fruits of His Spirit/character, Galatians 5:22, 23. If we are walking in the love of God, which is His image we were created in, then we are walking in obedience to His commands He has given us to walk in

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

FHG,

From my reading of Scripture, the uniqueness of human beings becomes evident and this feeds into my understanding of people being created 'in the image of God' (Gen 1:27). These include:

• Language (Gen 2:14-18; Jer 1:9);
• love (Mark 12:30-31);
• he/she has a spirit (Matt 2:13-18);
• righteousness/justice (Ps 37:27-29; Prov 21:15; Isa 56:1; Hos 12:6; Rom 6:17-20);
• immortality (1 Tim 6:16; Dan 12:2; 1 Cor 15:51-53);
• creativity (Ex 35:35; Rom 12:6);
• freedom, (Gen 3:1-24; Rom 6:20) and
• use of the mind (Isa 1:18; Rom 8:7; 12:1-2; Eph 4:23; Col 3:2; Phil 4:8).

There are many more attributes that demonstrate people being made in God's image.

Oz

 

[jerry63935]

1 Peter 1:6

yes that's why he says judgment begins at the house of God.. life would been better had he left that tree out.., i am sure he knew that they would fall ,, he covered there nakedness which is picture of Grace symbolic what Christ would do for us

 

[for_his_glory]

Ps 51:5, 'in sin my mother conceived me'. You were a sinner before you were born, according to this Scripture.

Let's look at this in another way by comparing two scriptures.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. (Some versions say you knitted me, or formed me in my mothers womb)

From these two scriptures it would seem they contradict each other as one says I was shaped in iniquity and the other says I am fearfully and wonderfully made, but they do not contradict. I see this as, I was shaped, covered, formed, knitted, fearfully and wonderfully made by God in the womb of my mother in a world full of iniquity. We are born with a nature to sin as we are inclined to sin as iniquity abounds in the word and the temptations are great, but God did not form that which was wonderfully made with a created sin nature in us, but we were given freewill to make our own choices.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't understand how this was possible before but I am beginning to understand it.
When Adam & Eve fell, their spirit died so there was only a soul and body then. The spirit needed to be born again! And all of us were born with a dead spirit and in that way we were able to be born into sin...only a soul and a body. After we're born again (in spirit) then we are saved and have a spirit within us. And the Lord's Spirit and presence in us.

Adam and Eve Spiritually died that day as we see they did not literally die. They lost that fellowship with God as they tried to hide from Him in the bushes of the garden as they knew they were naked. Within their shame of disobeying God their hearts were humbled before Him as God, being longsuffering and patience clothed them in His righteousness that day through the first blood sacrifice for the atonement of their sin. They gained back that Spiritual relationship as the Spirit, soul and body were brought back together through a humbled heart.

 

[for_his_glory]

Those are attributes of God and fruit of the Spirit for human beings. They don't explain the meaning of being made in 'the image of God'.

These are not only the attributes of God, but the image of God and His Son Christ Jesus as we let His image of righteousness and holiness shine in us and through us so others can see the image of God we are created in being righteous and holy before Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

From my reading of Scripture, the uniqueness of human beings becomes evident and this feeds into my understanding of people being created 'in the image of God' (Gen 1:27). These include:

• Language (Gen 2:14-18; Jer 1:9);
• love (Mark 12:30-31);
• he/she has a spirit (Matt 2:13-18);
• righteousness/justice (Ps 37:27-29; Prov 21:15; Isa 56:1; Hos 12:6; Rom 6:17-20);
• immortality (1 Tim 6:16; Dan 12:2; 1 Cor 15:51-53);
• creativity (Ex 35:35; Rom 12:6);
• freedom, (Gen 3:1-24; Rom 6:20) and
• use of the mind (Isa 1:18; Rom 8:7; 12:1-2; Eph 4:23; Col 3:2; Phil 4:8).

There are many more attributes that demonstrate people being made in God's image.

Oz

I agree with this as the image of God is not found in just one verse, but throughout all of scripture from Genesis to Revelation within His attributes, but His image can be defined in one word "love".

 

[for_his_glory]

yes that's why he says judgment begins at the house of God.. life would been better had he left that tree out.., i am sure he knew that they would fall ,, he covered there nakedness which is picture of Grace symbolic what Christ would do for us

Judgement does begin at the house of God from the beginning to the end. God knew man would fall as His plan of salvation through Christ was before the foundation of the world. God knows our beginnings and our endings and everything in between, even knowing the last one who will come to Christ before He returns.

 

[OzSpen]

Let's look at this in another way by comparing two scriptures.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. (Some versions say you knitted me, or formed me in my mothers womb)

From these two scriptures it would seem they contradict each other as one says I was shaped in iniquity and the other says I am fearfully and wonderfully made, but they do not contradict. I see this as, I was shaped, covered, formed, knitted, fearfully and wonderfully made by God in the womb of my mother in a world full of iniquity. We are born with a nature to sin as we are inclined to sin as iniquity abounds in the word and the temptations are great, but God did not form that which was wonderfully made with a created sin nature in us, but we were given freewill to make our own choices.

You argue from silence.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree with this as the image of God is not found in just one verse, but throughout all of scripture from Genesis to Revelation within His attributes, but His image can be defined in one word "love".

No, his image in human beings is much more than love as I tried to show in #28.

 

[WIP]

WIP,

Something for you to chew on as I head to my Dr:

• What was the power of Eve's free will?
• How can you say she had a sin nature before the Fall when God says all he created, including human beings was 'good' and not sinful?
• What does the context of Gen 2 tell us about the purpose of the tree (singular) of the knowledge of good and evil?
• Beware of arguing from silence. You know what that's called!

Oz

I will. Thanks. Couple comments.

I am not presenting my points for the purpose of arguing and swaying others. My responses are more for the purpose of understanding your position so that I may learn through you.

I would also like to point out that I never said Eve was sinful. I said she had a sin nature. Those are not the same thing in my view, although, after she took of the fruit she was sinful.

Actually, I do not know what it means to argue from silence aside from your usage and I really don't care about logical fallacies. I share viewpoints and hope to learn as the discussion continues. This isn't a formal debate, just fellow Christians sharing ideas and hopefully growing in our faith.

 

[WIP]

we really dont know with adam and eve most feel it was a time of testing . i do many what ifs and why are not answered . we do know He ( GOD) gave orders not to to bother the tree . question why did he even put the tree there. we simply dont know

I believe the tree was placed in the garden for a purpose. Perhaps to validate Adam and Eve's love and trust? Is love truly love unless one has a choice? The tree provides that choice.

 

[WIP]

She was defiled by Satan; by what came out of Satan’s heart as he communicated with Eve.


Jesus taught us the principle of defilement:


And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:20-23


Notice that Jesus did not communicate (commune) with Satan but only said.... It is written, and quoted the word of God.


Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:3-4


When God speaks to use it imparts faith and grace.

Faith comes by hearing God’s word (Rhema).


We also are called to impart grace to others out of a heart filled with God’s Spirit.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. Ephesians 4:29


Proverbs says it this way —


Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23


Issue refers to a flow or a river, that comes from our heart, and flows into others.


We have the ability to impart death, that which is corrupt, or life, that which is grace; a river of life giving water of the Spirit.


Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:13-14


again


He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38-39



If the Spirit of Life flows out of our Lord into us.


Imagine what flows out of Satan.

The spirit of antichrist; death.


Notice it wasn’t until Eve had this conversation with Satan that she “saw” that the tree was


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:1-6


Her desires became corrupt and self centered, she became blind to the truth of what God had commanded, and sought to gratify the desires of her eyes; the lust of the eyes.


The Point: God did not creat Adam and Eve with a sin nature.






JLB

You've said a lot. Are you saying that Eve had no choice but to follow Satan's deception? I'm not sure I can understand that. Otherwise, why would it be of any value for God to warn them against partaking from the tree? They must have had the ability to make that choice and the fact that they did choose to partake seems to indicate a sin nature or a propensity to disobey. If they didn't, then God would not have needed to warn them or even place the tree in the garden.

 

[JLB]

You've said a lot. Are you saying that Eve had no choice but to follow Satan's deception? I'm not sure I can understand that

Im saying she was defiled; corrupted.

I didn’t say she had no choice.

However, this is a good discussion point.

If we look at some of the language of the New Testament, we see the word “slave” associated with our relationship to sin.

Nevertheless, I didn’t mention that Eve had “no choice”.


Cain had a choice.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


I will say that I believe Eve was weakened to give in to the desire she now had, to be “wise”. (A wisdom not from God.)


So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:6


“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12




JLB