Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[WIP]

Im saying she was defiled; corrupted.

I didn’t say she had no choice.

However, this is a good discussion point.

If we look at some of the language of the New Testament, we see the word “slave” associated with our relationship to sin.

Nevertheless, I didn’t mention that Eve had “no choice”.


Cain had a choice.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


I will say that I believe Eve was weakened to give in to the desire she now had, to be “wise”. (A wisdom not from God.)


So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:6


“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12




JLB

Isn't that what a sin nature is, the innate trait to give in to or be weakened by temptation?

Also, if she was defiled then isn't that contradictory to God's declaration that they were "very good?" (Genesis 1:31)

I guess, having a sin nature would also be contradictory.

 

[JLB]

If they didn't, then God would not have needed to warn them or even place the tree in the garden.

Like much of what we see in the Bible about God’s foreknowledge, I believe the Lord knew what Satan would do beforehand, and was ready.


And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
Genesis 3:15


JLB

 

[JLB]

Also, if she was defiled then isn't that contradictory to God's declaration that they were "very good?" (Genesis 1:31)

Brother she was defiled in Genesis 3 when she interacted with the devil, not Genesis 1.



JLB

 

[WIP]

Brother she was defiled in Genesis 3 when she interacted with the devil, not Genesis 1.



JLB

Yes, but they were declared to be very good in Genesis 1. Was that no longer the case by Genesis 3?

My point is, since they were very good and in the image of God, then why or how could they fall? This is the part that seems to contradict and present a challenge to understand.

 

[for_his_glory]

You argue from silence.

I don't, nor will I ever argue over the scriptures, but only discuss that of how I understand them. I take correction very easily and welcome it when need be as I have been corrected many times by those who have more Spiritual knowledge then I have, but I also said this is how I understand those verses as I can not see them any other way when I put the whole together as the Holy Spirit gives me those scriptures.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing and if I am wrong I know the Holy Spirit will show me my error like He always does.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, his image in human beings is much more than love as I tried to show in #28.

And I agreed with your post.

 

[for_his_glory]

Isn't that what a sin nature is, the innate trait to give in to or be weakened by temptation?

Also, if she was defiled then isn't that contradictory to God's declaration that they were "very good?" (Genesis 1:31)

I guess, having a sin nature would also be contradictory.

Just like the angels in heaven are a created spirit and given freewill, Lucifer chose to rebel against God while in the garden of Eden. Iniquity was soon found in him claiming he would become like God, Isaiah 14:12-15. Satan deceived Eve by speaking through the serpent in the garden telling her that her and her husband would not surely die, but they would be like God if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Like Lucifer, Adam and Eve were created without sin and were pleasing to God as He saw them to be good when He created them. But, we also have to remember God also gave Lucifer/us freewill from which we make choses through the deceitful temptations of Satan who weakens the nations through temptations causing God's people to lose fellowship with Him. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil, Genesis 3:4, 5.

Adam and Eve were not created with a sin nature, but freewill that brought about a sin nature by the choices they/we make.

 

[ezrider]

The nature of sin is only relative to the law.

The Strength of Sin is the Law. 1 Cor 15:56

Where there is NO Law, there is NO Sin. Rom 5:13


Those under the law have a sin nature, those not under the law have a human nature.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, but they were declared to be very good in Genesis 1. Was that no longer the case by Genesis 3?

My point is, since they were very good and in the image of God, then why or how could they fall? This is the part that seems to contradict and present a challenge to understand.

WIP,

I find this to be the simplest answer because it follows what the Bible says. In Gen 2 God gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat or not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They had a God-given ability to choose.

According to Genesis 2:16-17 (NIV), the Lord said to Adam:

​

You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”​

As a beginning answer, the words, 'You are free', indicate that Adam & Eve had a choice to sin or not to sin.

Why did they choose to sin? That's the million dollar question.

In Genesis 2 we have a hint as to why Adam & Eve chose to sin:

The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground – trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die (Gen 2:9, 16-17 NIV).

Notice that the 'the tree of life' was in the Garden. So, Adam & Eve had the freedom to choose between the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Notice what is stated after the Fall:

22 And the Lord God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.’ 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken (Gen 3:22-23 NIV).

At this early history in the life of the planet, verse 22 seems to suggest that God could not allow A & E to eat of the tree of life because if they did 'it seems that if Adam and Eve were to have eaten from the tree of life at this point in the story, they would have remained in their sinful condition forever' (Mark Ballenger). Ballenger suggests:

It seems safe to assume that whatever spiritual condition someone was in when they ate from the tree of life would be there (sic) spiritual condition forever since it seems whoever would eat that fruit would live forever. Thus, if Adam and Eve would have eaten the fruit from the tree of life first, it seems logical that they would have lived forever in their pre-fall, pre-sin, spiritually pure condition.

Oz

 

[jerry63935]

I believe the tree was placed in the garden for a purpose. Perhaps to validate Adam and Eve's love and trust? Is love truly love unless one has a choice? The tree provides that choice.

could very well be

 

[for_his_glory]

The nature of sin is only relative to the law.

The Strength of Sin is the Law. 1 Cor 15:56

Where there is NO Law, there is NO Sin. Rom 5:13


Those under the law have a sin nature, those not under the law have a human nature.

Here's the thing though, Adam and Eve were both under God's law with the first one being, not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God causing the nature to sin being passed on to every generation after them. God's laws began with Adam and Eve and have been added to by God as the generations started growing.

 

[JLB]

Yes, but they were declared to be very good in Genesis 1. Was that no longer the case by Genesis 3?

That‘s my whole point.

They were not created with a sin nature and were declared to be very good.


Then in Genesis 3, we see the interaction with the devil, whereby she became defiled, “weakened“ within her heart, in which ”she saw” that which was forbidden by God, as good for obtaining wisdom.


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:1-7


The Devil imparted to Eve the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.


IOW after this interaction with the devil, she “saw” the tree in a different way.


She saw that which was off limits by God as “desirable“.



JLB

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

She was defiled by Satan; by what came out of Satan’s heart as he communicated with Eve.


Jesus taught us the principle of defilement:


And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:20-23


Notice that Jesus did not communicate (commune) with Satan but only said.... It is written, and quoted the word of God.


Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:3-4


When God speaks to use it imparts faith and grace.

Faith comes by hearing God’s word (Rhema).


We also are called to impart grace to others out of a heart filled with God’s Spirit.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. Ephesians 4:29


Proverbs says it this way —


Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23


Issue refers to a flow or a river, that comes from our heart, and flows into others.


We have the ability to impart death, that which is corrupt, or life, that which is grace; a river of life giving water of the Spirit.


Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:13-14


again


He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38-39



If the Spirit of Life flows out of our Lord into us.


Imagine what flows out of Satan.

The spirit of antichrist; death.


Notice it wasn’t until Eve had this conversation with Satan that she “saw” that the tree was


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:1-6


Her desires became corrupt and self centered, she became blind to the truth of what God had commanded, and sought to gratify the desires of her eyes; the lust of the eyes.


The Point: God did not creat Adam and Eve with a sin nature.






JLB

So here is my question if a child who is born with a sinful nature dies before he is cognizant of this nature or even able to act within sin are they saved by default or not ? Or if a newborn who dies at weeks or months still considered sinful ?

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:4-5

Is it possible that Eve was tempted with the idea to be like God the same sin that corrupted Satan and perhaps he convinced her that God was withholding something from them ?

 

[JLB]

So here is my question if a child who is born with a sinful nature dies before he is cognizant of this nature or even able to act within sin are they saved by default or not ? Or if a newborn who dies at weeks or months still considered sinful ?

Here are some scriptures that lend themselves to this discussion.


At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. Matthew 18:1-5


Key Verse:

• unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

What does this say about how the Lord view little children?


again

• Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

JLB

 

[JLB]

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:4-5

Is it possible that Eve was tempted with the idea to be like God the same sin that corrupted Satan and perhaps he convinced her that God was withholding something from them ?

Eve was defiled by her communication (commune) with Satan.

See Mark 7:14-23


They were not created with a sin nature and were declared to be very good.


Then in Genesis 3, we see the interaction with the devil, whereby she became defiled, “weakened“ within her heart, in which ”she saw” that which was forbidden by God, as good for obtaining wisdom.


“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:13


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:1-7


The Devil imparted to Eve the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.


IOW after this interaction with the devil, she “saw” the tree in a different way.


She saw that which was off limits by God as “desirable“.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

So here is my question if a child who is born with a sinful nature dies before he is cognizant of this nature or even able to act within sin are they saved by default or not ? Or if a newborn who dies at weeks or months still considered sinful ?

I'll let JLB answer this, but would also like to give you my perspective on this.

God does not select before the womb who will spend eternity with Him or those who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he alone judges us, 2 Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts are hardened.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adams sin was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

In the OT and NT God did specifically call out certain prophets by name (listed below) as he elected them before they were even formed in the womb. This does not make God a respecter of person, it just means they were called

 

[OzSpen]

So here is my question if a child who is born with a sinful nature dies before he is cognizant of this nature or even able to act within sin are they saved by default or not ? Or if a newborn who dies at weeks or months still considered sinful ?

Bondservant,

These are excellent questions that get to the heart of God's dealing with the sinful nature/original sin and the place of children in the kingdom. In my understanding, it also deals with the slaughter of unborn children in the womb.

In the Old Testament, there is a ray of light in an incident that is surrounded by sin, distress and disappointment. King David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had arranged for the murder of Bathsheba’s husband, Uriah, on the battle field (see 2 Samuel, chapters 11 & 12). The scene was atrocious–everything that one could expect from a modern movie. A son was conceived through illicit sexual intercourse.

When confronted by the prophet Nathan, David confessed, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die” (2 Samuel 12:13-14).

The son became desperately ill. David was distraught and wept bitterly. He fasted and pleaded with God to restore the child to health. But the child died.

It is at this point that the Old Testament gives us a glimpse of what happens to children after death. It is only a snap-shot of the eternal future, but it is enough to give immense hope to Christian believers whose children have died.

David said, “Now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Samuel 12:23, emphasis added).

“The last comment does not mean merely that David would eventually die himself. The point of the story is that David comforted himself (and Bathsheba) after the child’s death, and there would be no comfort unless David believed that, although he could not bring the child back, nevertheless, one day they would see the child again in heaven” [Boice (1986:718)].

David expected to see his son again–“not just a nameless, faceless soul without an identity, but that very child” [MacArthur (1996:138)]This is an assurance that believers will know people in heaven.

Oz

Bibliography:

James Montgomery Boice 1986. Foundations of the Christian Faith (revised in one volume). Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.

John F. MacArthur 1996. The Glory of Heaven. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

Eve was defiled by her communication (commune) with Satan.

See Mark 7:14-23


They were not created with a sin nature and were declared to be very good.


Then in Genesis 3, we see the interaction with the devil, whereby she became defiled, “weakened“ within her heart, in which ”she saw” that which was forbidden by God, as good for obtaining wisdom.


“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:13


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:1-7


The Devil imparted to Eve the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.


IOW after this interaction with the devil, she “saw” the tree in a different way.


She saw that which was off limits by God as “desirable“.



JLB

So the focus here shows the interaction that Eve had alone with Satan but what about Adam he did not interact with Satan so why did He eat of it knowing it was against what God has stated to them? Did Satan choose Eve to deceive because she came from Adam and not Adam because God created Adam solely of himself?

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

I'll let JLB answer this, but would also like to give you my perspective on this.

God does not select before the womb who will spend eternity with Him or those who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he alone judges us, 2 Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts are hardened.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adams sin was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

In the OT and NT God did specifically call out certain prophets by name (listed below) as he elected them before they were even formed in the womb. This does not make God a respecter of person, it just means they were called

You stated that children do not inherit the sin of their parents however in scripture and I could be incorrect but the sins of the father do get passed on to other generations unless it is broken or repented of by them or the parents. Deuteronomy 5: 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me