IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

So, in the area of SIN you agree that your will is not free? Something is affecting it ... if so, what is the 'something'?

Thank you for responding, I appreciated it

No Fred....
this is not what I said.

Something always affects every decision we make.
The very fact that we retain our free will choice to sin shows that we have free will.
We are free to do good or we are free to sin.
God can influence our decision,,,but He does not make it for us.
THIS is why we are respsonsible for our sins, because WE made the choice to sin.

According to your belief system, if we sin, at any time, it is God that has decreed this sin.
You've never explained how God could decree EVERYTHING, except for sin. So I have to continue to believe what I hear the Reformed teach...that God predestines EVERYTHING.

So what makes YOU sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

Now this is a statement that shows some weak spots in your "knowledge" of Reformed. Covenant Theology is another name for Reformed Theology. Why? Because their entire theology is based on interpreting the Bible through the framework og the covenants. It is not a doctine it is a framework a lens a solid foundation through which to begin and end interpreting the Bible. It is best to have such a thing as a foundation and a system to do this exhaustive, intensive indeavor. Sproul and others often refer to it as Covenant Theology.
The book was written as a study of the covenants and how that framework is valid, and what it produces.
Did you read the book?
The Bible itself tells us the purpose of bi-lateral covenants, but not why God chose to do it that way, which again seems to be what you are,asking in those last two questions. And challenging me to answer. If you are, again, I don't know, neither do you, neither does anyone.

Well, actually, I DID answer the questions I posed to you.
It is YOU that cannot or will not answer them.

If you read a whole book on the Covenants,,,why can you not reply to the question of WHY God would make a Bi-Lateral Covenants with His people if He knew they would not keep it??

Seems easy enough.
I did it.

And, no, I did not read the book.
But since you've read it,,,you should be able to answer the question we're discussing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. We all agree no sin exists in God therefore He couldn't create it. He allows it because that is what we now have to deal with since Adam and Eve sinned, and through them it came into us and our world. Sin by its nature is destructive and this world now needs to be redeemed, restored, from sin. First the redeemed of the Lord, then the earth. It is that up,down thing. I almost hate bringing up the phrase free will again, but Adam and Eve had absolute free will. They did not have sin dwelling in them. They invited it in. Our will is not as free as theirs was in this matter. We don't sin all the time, but we will always sin.
Have you ever read any of Arthur Pinks books on Adam being the federal head of humanity (as he goes so go the rest of us), and Jesus the federal head of the redeemed? A bit hard to read because of the old language, but interesting. Jesus had absolute free will too, as son of man, but did not sin. His not sinning, His righteousness is imputed to us. I'm not saying these things because I think you don't know them, as I know you do. I'm just chattering.

Instead of reading Arthur Pink why don't you just read the bible?
It's a whole lot easier to understand!
But reading is good too. I'm sure we all have read many books.
In this case you've explained everything perfectly...you wouldn't have understood this from reading Romans?

Romans chapter 5......

 

[OzSpen]

Instead of reading Arthur Pink why don't you just read the bible?
It's a whole lot easier to understand!
But reading is good too. I'm sure we all have read many books.
In this case you've explained everything perfectly...you wouldn't have understood this from reading Romans?

Romans chapter 5......

wondering,

A W Pink was an extreme Calvinistic Baptist in his theology.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Does that also mean you won't discuss what these church leaders wrote? Calvin, Arminius, Luther, Wesley, C H Spurgeon, etc.

I will discuss any topic from the Bible if you want to use scripture.

Using other men’s opinion rather than the. Scriptures only leads to division.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 1:10


again


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4





JLB

 

[JLB]

When the prophets entered the ministry to Israel in revealing God's word, there was no more use for the urim and thummim.

Christ spoke directly to the people through the prophet.


Today we have the New Testament to go by, in which the words of Christ, His teaching, is available for us to follow.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I will discuss any topic from the Bible if you want to use scripture.

Using other men’s opinion rather than the. Scriptures only leads to division.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 1:10


again


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4





JLB

You have reefed those verses out of context to support your agenda of not referring to other resources, including Bible teachers. They do not say what you want them to say.

 

[OzSpen]

Christ spoke directly to the people through the prophet.


Today we have the New Testament to go by, in which the words of Christ, His teaching, is available for us to follow.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB

You didn't respond to what I wrote about finding God's sovereign will in the OT by use of Urim & Thumim and casting lots.

 

[Avigdor]

Instead of reading Arthur Pink why don't you just read the bible?
It's a whole lot easier to understand!
But reading is good too. I'm sure we all have read many books.
In this case you've explained everything perfectly...you wouldn't have understood this from reading Romans?

Romans chapter 5......

W
I read the Bible much more than I read anything else FYI.
I understood that perfectly from reading Romans, just not put into the idea of federal. I was just trying to have a normal conversation with you W. I found it an interesting book, wondered if you had read it, if so your thoughts. I don't know why you reacted as you did.

 

[Avigdor]

Well, actually, I DID answer the questions I posed to you.
It is YOU that cannot or will not answer them.

If you read a whole book on the Covenants,,,why can you not reply to the question of WHY God would make a Bi-Lateral Covenants with His people if He knew they would not keep it??

Seems easy enough.
I did it.

And, no, I did not read the book.
But since you've read it,,,you should be able to answer the question we're discussing.

Wondering,
What? I don't know what question I said you didn't answer in this post.
And I don't know why you are saying I didn't answer.
It is like you didn't read my post at all.
I'm confused at this turn in your tone.

 

[Avigdor]

Could you find some verses that say God created evil?

No, Because He didn't, which I have said over and over. You must keep getting me mixed up with Piper.

 

[Torigirl]

Some believe that God, being a Sovereign God, must control everything...
this is determinism, or predestination.

They believe that if God is NOT in complete control of EVERYTHING,
then He would not be a Sovereign God.

What is a defense against this?

Because He is Sovereign, it is so, because we are not we can not know! Knowing the mind and essence of God is not easily known, if at all possible. That my friend is where faith come into play. Is it possible that God’s sovereignty would not be sovereign if we could understand it?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

A W Pink was an extreme Calvinistic Baptist in his theology.

Oz

Oz,
I'm being told I don't understand Calvinism.
I think we should stick to biblical verses so we could all be on the same "page",
and discuss what the writer's of the bible believed, instead of what men believed.

Could you imagine me coming on here and posting the CCC for my support...
I'm not Catholic but know the CCC really well and could use it with my eyes closed.
But it wouldn't be right.

 

[JLB]

Because He is Sovereign, it is so, because we are not we can not know! Knowing the mind and essence of God is not easily known, if at all possible. That my friend is where faith come into play. Is it possible that God’s sovereignty would not be sovereign if we could understand it?

Welcome to the Forum.

Glad to have you here with us.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You have reefed those verses out of context to support your agenda of not referring to other resources, including Bible teachers. They do not say what you want them to say.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 1:10

I believe Paul was exhorting us to be in unity, and have no divisions among us.


What do you believe?

You have reefed those verses out of context to support your agenda of not referring to other resources, including Bible teachers.

Which bible teachers would you recommend to brothers and sisters in Christ to study?




JLB

 

[JLB]

You didn't respond to what I wrote about finding God's sovereign will in the OT by use of Urim & Thumim and casting lots.

Post 386 was my response.


Here it is again -

Christ spoke directly to the people (the children of Israel) through the prophet.


Today we have the New Testament to go by, in which the words of Christ, His teaching, is available for us to follow.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You probably know this but, here goes...
You are responsible because you were born in sin (Psalm 51:5) and therefore have a sin nature so, despite what "free will" people say, you cannot help but sinning because you are NOT free (Total Depravity) ... you are a slave to sin (Romans 6). It is our nature to sin. Since you sin you are responsible.

Agreed.
To clarify,,,we do not have to sin...but our whole life is a "sin" before we are born from above.

Now, like me, you probably think ... this is a rip-off. I have no opportunity to be sinless, I was born with it (ergo, there goes "free will" because I didn't chose this).

Being sinless in this life is impossible.

So you are responsible because you were born in Adam by imputation. (aside: Adam, you suck) It's like you were born an U.S. citizen and are responsible to U.S. law despite having no choice. Your parent chose for you.

We are not imputed with Adam's sin.
We are not responsible for our father's sins, but only for our own.
We suffer from the affects of Adam's sin, which cause the fall of all mankind.


Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Death spread to all men, because ALL SINNED,
not because Adam sinned. Adam caused us to become fallen, but we are not responsible for HIS sin.


5:14-17
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam,

Our sins are not like the one of Adam.

Now, deeper into the question .... why did, in reform's opinion, God decide to set Adam up knowing he would fail. I answered by quoting Calvin, that was in a post to OZ .. post 329 ... difficult question beyond my pay grade. Maybe the answer is in Romans 9 ... your are the clay and I am the Potter, what right do you have to even question me (same answer basically given to Job in chapter 38 and 39. Maybe he did it to show his glory in displays of mercy, grace. In reform doctrine the purpose of God is the following: God purpose and man’s purpose are one and the same: to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.

The answer is not in Romans 9 regarding the Potter and the clay.
Romans 9 is not about individual salvation but is about corporate salvation.
It is speaking about the nation of Israel.
See the beginning of chapter 9 where it is clear Paul is speaking to his kinsmen regarding God's choice of them for His revelation and about how now the Gentiles will also come in and how the Israelites did not adhere to the Plan of God....(once again we encounter free will).

And if you care to know about the potter and the clay,,,which Paul's kinsmen understood immediately since they were very familiar with the O.T....you'll have to go back and read
Jeremiah 18 about how the Potter did not like how the Vessel turned out (the Jews) and made a new vessel (the Gentiles).


As to God's Glory being the purpose for our creation,
I have failed to understand why God would make humans, and most headed for hell, (thru Adam's sin) to Glorify Himself. How exactly does this glorify Him?

Here are two verses that speak about the glory of God:
Ephesians 3:16
16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

2 Corinthians 4:15
15For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

Every other verse in the N.T. speaks about the glory of God in a positive and edifying way. How does making Adam fail glorify God?

Aside: There great advantage/wisdom to God's planning everything and executing His plan. That way everything goes the way the all-wise person thinks it should go; rather than letting us idiots randomly determine events and God try to pick up the pieces. From a reform perspective we know the Father is taking care of EVERY DETAIL for His children/sheep (not so much the goats). From a 'free will' perspective I have no idea how "we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. "

I'll make two comments...and this will also cover the very first paragraph of that long post of yours that I've been wanting to get to.

Romans 8:28 God works all together for the good for those that love Him. How? Because when we live according to God's purpose, we can know that whatever happens to us will be within God's will for us and we can trust that He is doing the right thing for us. Yes, we also believe in God's will for us. We are taught to pray in God's will and not in our own will. Jesus said that the Father's will be done, and not His in the Garden of Gethsemane.

If we love God, we can find some good in everything that happens to us. We've all had the experience of looking back on something bad and being able to see something good come from it. The unsaved cannot see this because they don't know about the love God has for us.

Second comment
You say God does not do so much for the goats in watching every detail in their lives.
I don't know how anyone could agree with this. God makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

I find that both unsaved persons and saved persons get sick and have problems.
I don't believe the saved are any more fortunate,,,except that they have someone to pray to and to sustain them in their time of sadness.

 

[GodsGrace]

I respectfully disagree with that conclusion. Not all Calvinist believe all the exact same thing as people tend to weigh things and make up their own minds. If I didn't primarily believe Reformation theology but I said one thing that aligned with their teachings, would you tell me I was Reformed? Does believing some of the things the RC teaches, does that make you a Catholic. You say you are protestant, but you believe some of what the Catholics teach, should I tell you then that you are not protestant? That is the only point I am trying to make here.
When I was first investigating Reformed, I read a lot of John MacArthur. When a person reads his books and the text notes (mostly) in his study Bible it would seem like he was a Calvinist. I agreed with much of what he said. But in one of his books he stated that he was a dispensationelist. Something I heartily disagree with. We shouldn't make a pronouncement on what someone else should call themselves or what they are.

If I called myself a Catholic,,,I'd have to believe what Catholics believe.
I can't make up my own Catholicism.

This is what you seem to be wanting to do with calvinism.
You want to create your own form of calvinism.

As I've said before,,,,if you don't want to be called a calvinist...
then don't agree with much of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, maybe it's not about us (anthropocentric); but about God (theocentric). Maybe it is about God's glory and not ours.


I responded I believe and got no counter response. I summarized your arguments as follows:
Proposition 1: God wouldn't ask we to do something if it was not possible
Response: I gave example where He did (Love my with all your heart, soul ...

Proposition 2: You must believe
Response: Agreed. But that doesn't answer the question of who causes you to believe; God or yourself. This was followed by 20 verses saying you are incapable of believing plus 7ish other general reason why faith comes from God .... seeing as you were understandably on OVERLOAD with the first 20 total depravity verses and the 7ish source of faith verses ... I decided not to expand the other topic and 100+ verses supporting those topics.


Ah, that's OK. They have gone stale. LOL That list is only a 1/10 of what I have. Granted, you put up a good fight.

I think I responded to all Fred.
Sorry if I missed something.
I believe we are to glorify God...
not ourselves.

And yes, we'll get to your list eventually...through different threads, I guess.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Jesus states the "this is the work of God" ... followed by a ":" indicating a list and the list contains "that you believe".
I defined work from the dictionary. If faith comes from oneself, then you are performing a work. I would be interested in your dictionary definition of work and how you figure "free will" faith is not a work. How you figure that you are saved and the unbeliever is not saved because of what you had to do (believe) and yet not save it is a work.

Fred,,,forget about the dictionary.
Christianity if found in the bible.
Work in the bible refers to
1. The O.T. Law (613)
2. Trying to gain salvation by our own works.


YOU have stated that faith is a gift. All Christians agree.
We just don't agree on how to get it.

We've already been thru this...
So quick:
Ephesians 2:8-9
We are saved BY GRACE.....THROUGH FAITH....
and THIS is a gift from God.

If something is a GIFT....
How could it be a work?

Let's move on....

AH, you made me laugh aloud again. You have the Holy Father the pope on your side.

Yes....Even the POPE believes we are saved by faith...Go figure!!

Agreed. We been here before. Your bias has you insert the though that because God wants "X" the you must be capable of "X" on your own. I think everyone the beholds the son and believes has eternal life too. I think it is because the Spirit inserted faith. You think you did it (though somehow this is not a work). I can see the verse does not answer as to the source of faith. I can put away my bias, you cannot. (IMO)
Of course the Holy Spirit "inserts" faith. I don't know that term...but I think you mean that the Holy Spirit indwells believers.

I am not capable of doing anything on my own.
John 15:5

We agree on this.

I gave you 6 or 7 verses. I think I have 45 all told; some more salient than others.
I also gave you 3 of 5 verses where God gives you repentance (part of conversion).
I could give you 45 verses showing it is God will whether or not we are saved; some more salient than others.
I could give you many verses showing God's wisdom, freedom, independance, sufficiency, glory, grace, knowledge, perfection, immutability have grave problems if your "free will" be true
I could show the 5 or 6 metaphor concerning salvation don't fit 'free will' ... I.E. born again ... you can't birth yourself, someone has to do the work
Verse about God's Call, God's choosing,.. on and on

I summarized your few verses.... God say to do "X" so it must be possible to do "X", etc.
surprised you haven't use the GOD LOVES EVERYONE and THIS IS ONLY FAIR

Still haven't seen why you, an American, are living in ITaly.

You could post a couple of verse at a time...I'll be happy to reply.

Many Americans are living in Italy!
?