IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

I am at post 359. I think I caught up. If I missed something, I apologize.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I going for a short jet-ski ride.

 

[Torigirl]

Welcome to the Forum.

Glad to have you here with us.



JLB

Thank you!

 

[GodsGrace]

Because He is Sovereign, it is so, because we are not we can not know! Knowing the mind and essence of God is not easily known, if at all possible. That my friend is where faith come into play. Is it possible that God’s sovereignty would not be sovereign if we could understand it?

Hi Torigirl....
welcome to the forum!
It's nice to have you here.

I don't get what you're saying.
If I know Elizabeth is the Queen of England...
but I don't really understand what that means...
This makes her not be the Queen??

As to knowing God...
God revealed Himself the the Hebrew people so we could know Him better, even though
God has revealed Himself to mankind always.

The entire bible is about allowing us to know God.

John 17:3
3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


1 John 4:6-7
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.


2 Peter 3:18
18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fred,

I think you are on another steam ship to ask that question.

Will there be any sin in heaven?

'But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life' (Rev 21:27 ESV).

Oz

On the same steam ship as you. The point was not whether or not we can sin in heaven (we agree, we cannot) ... the point was to show that we do NOT have 'free will' ... at least not for 99.99999% of our lives.
Similarly, the point of challenging you people to go a week was to show you cannot demostrate 'free will' for even that short a period. I knew we both knew it was not possible, the point was to hi-light 'free will' short comings.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

Another verse telling us what we have done and not WHY we did it. The question at hand is: Why do we believe?
Reform Side: Spirit regenerates us, given us faith/repentance. Now, because of this change of heart we willing believe and obey (though not perfectly obey)
Your side: Faith comes by hearing (some on your side ... Wondering, for example ... think those that don't hear can be saved ... I inquired for conformation, no answer yet). Once you hear the gospel you, independent of God (he does not regenerate you first), can decide to believe or not believe. (to be fair, you should state your own view point, I think this is it)

Please give verses telling us WHY one believes, not that people believe. We both again that people believe.

Aside: Some on your side think you can believe for a while, then unbelieve, then believe, then unbelieve, then .... hopefully you die during a 'believing time period" in this lottery of life. (sarcasm intended, not personal)

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are free to do good or we are free to sin.

Why do you freely chose to sin (as I understand it, you can stop as you looked at what God commands and your desire to to obey... so what is the influence causing you to sin?

According to your belief system, if we sin, at any time, it is God that has decreed this sin.

Yes. It is always wisest to plan things out.
Under your system, God looked into the future (not sure how and your side doesn't either), and says, "holy smokes, look what they are doing ... hmmm, I think I will intercede here and there (semi-deism) ... hmmm, this is entertaining ... all the things these people are doing ... look, Jane has decided to believe in me (not the that affects God ... Job 35:7) ... This idea makes God, to a degree, dependent upon man for his knowledge.
The knowledge of God cannot arise from the things themselves, for then the knowledge of God would have a cause without him; and knowledge, which is an eminent perfection, would be conferred upon him by his creatures.

You've never explained how God could decree EVERYTHING, except for sin. So I have to continue to believe what I hear the Reformed teach...that God predestines EVERYTHING.

Predestine, predetermine, plan, decree .. all the same thing pretty much. I believe predestine is used to define that part of his decree concerning who is saved or not... but all similar.
AGAIN, reform doctrine states God predestines, predetermines, plans, decrees everything including sin. "Evil is evil and good is good and evil is never good, yet it is good that evil exists; otherwise God would not have permitted it.
You stumble trying to understand the way God controls His plan. You can't understand the difference between "passive" and "active" control.
The bible in at least 3 places says God planned, predestined, whatever word you want ... for sin to occur.

So what makes YOU sin?

My sin nature and my wife (giggles, joking about the wife). Sin nature from Adam (thanks dude) Like being able to see.... I am born with it, it is my nature to see. I was born to sin, when I die God will extract my sin nature (not me doing it via 'free will' or I would have done it myself on this earth).

 

[Avigdor]

The commands in the OT were for the Israelites and not Gentiles, in my understanding.

The ten commandments, which is what I referenced,

Wondering,
What? I don't know what question I said you didn't answer in this post.
And I don't know why you are saying I didn't answer.
It is like you didn't read my post at all.
I'm confused at this turn in your tone.

?

 

[Avigdor]

If I called myself a Catholic,,,I'd have to believe what Catholics believe.
I can't make up my own Catholicism.

This is what you seem to be wanting to do with calvinism.
You want to create your own form of calvinism.

As I've said before,,,,if you don't want to be called a calvinist...
then don't agree with much of it.

"If I called myself----" My question/point was actually how would you feel if I did to you what I described. Not what you call yourself.
I am not creating my own form of Calvinism nor wanting to. It wasn't me that called myself a Calvinist in the first place. It was other people who decided that, and then when I disagreed with their interpretation of what Calvin teaches, said I wasn't. I have merely been stating/explaining what Calvinisim means when I hear it mistated, trying to clarify. I do agree with most of it, and I don't care if people call me one. What I don't like is others telling me what I do and don't believe, and what I should and shouldn't call myself.
As would any body.
I don't understand why it is such a big issue what I am and what I call myself, why it is so important that I fall completely within or without a believed catagory.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are not imputed with Adam's sin.
We are not responsible for our father's sins, but only for our own.
We suffer from the affects of Adam's sin, which cause the fall of all mankind.

Wow, don't hear that from many Christians. I wonder if JLB and OZ agree.
Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. (I wonder what how I sinned as a 1 celled creature?????
You even use the same verses I would use to prove the imputation of Adam's sin.
Hmmm, maybe communication problem.

You say God does not do so much for the goats in watching every detail in their lives.
I don't know how anyone could agree with this. God makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

So you think God favors his sheep (adopted children) as much as the people He refers to as 'goats' and give the example of rain falling on both. WOW

 

[Avigdor]

Oz,
I'm being told I don't understand Calvinism.
I think we should stick to biblical verses so we could all be on the same "page",
and discuss what the writer's of the bible believed, instead of what men believed.

Agreed. In my post where I mentioned Pink I wasn't even talking about what kind of a Calvinist he is. I was trying to have a conversation about something I found interesting. But it always goes back to the same thing.Who is what. And I am flabbergasted as to why.

 

[Avigdor]

Can irresistible grace be resisted by people?

If they could, the phrase would be an oxymoron. None of their natural abilities has been taken away. They still have that will, call it free if you want, to say yes or no. But they don't want to say no, they want to say yes. because God has done something IN them. Softened their heart. Do you think God is too forceful when He does this? Do you think He has no right to do this? Well I'm sure you don't. Your real issue seems to be that He doesn't have the right to save only some, to soften only some, or the right to determine who they are.

 

[Avigdor]

The commands in the OT were for the Israelites and not Gentiles, in my understanding.

The ten commandments (the law) are still God's requirements for salvation. Jesus said He came not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. The unsaved are still under that law, and we are too, but for those who believe, Jesus's righteousness, His perfect keeping of the law, is counted to us as though we do. Still doesn't change the fact that God commanded something of all people that no one can do. That is why He sent Jesus. To do it for us.

 

[Avigdor]

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth throug h the Spirit

JLB
I know we disagree on our interpretation of this scripture and since that has been addressed (for days) in this forum, I really do not want to get into it all over again. Thanks though for the comment.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Work in the bible refers to
1. The O.T. Law (613)
2. Trying to gain salvation by our own works.

I understand point '1'. Your definition 'work' in point '2' is unclear. You define 'work' as 'work' in point 2. Can you expand on this? Perhaps you define 'work' in point '1' and point '2' is not a definition, but an example of the use of the word 'work' ... as in ... we can't gain salvation by "The O.T. Law (613)"?

YOU have stated that faith is a gift. All Christians agree.
We just don't agree on how to get it.

Agreed. I think the gift of faith is from the Spirit and you think you make the gift (faith) and give it to yourself. I think that is what you are saying. Yes, this is the crux of the issue.

 

[Fastfredy0]

woohoo .. .I am caught up (to the best of my knowledge). Even got a ribbon (award) from Wondering. No one good but God, but gee, I am pseudo-good.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You're missing posts!

I think I recall only three things that I still want you to respond to:

1) Your main 'beef' with REFORMED theology in recent posts is:
Given: Reform theology believes that God, in eternity past, planned out EVERYTHING (right down to the relative position of a spec of dust in any moment of time). I think we agree on this.

and now, correct me if I a wrong...
from of the 'given' above you conclude that because God planned (meant, predestined, controls, predetermined, whatever) sin to occur, that this makes God the Author of sin which is tantamount to God sinning. Therefore, reform thinking in this area cannot possibly be true.
Is this your position? Please make any changes to my assumptions about your position. Is your position that if a doctrine states that: GOD PLANNED FOR SIN TO OCCUR then that part of your doctrine is FALSE ??????

2) I believe you stated that if an reasonably intelligent man has died and never heard the gospel, that person could still be in heaven? If that is true my next question is: What has to occur for that person get to heaven?

3) What is an American doing in Italy?

 

[jasonc]

I think I recall only three things that I still want you to respond to:

1) Your main 'beef' with REFORMED theology in recent posts is:
Given: Reform theology believes that God, in eternity past, planned out EVERYTHING (right down to the relative position of a spec of dust in any moment of time). I think we agree on this.

and now, correct me if I a wrong...
from of the 'given' above you conclude that because God planned (meant, predestined, controls, predetermined, whatever) sin to occur, that this makes God the Author of sin which is tantamount to God sinning. Therefore, reform thinking in this area cannot possibly be true.
Is this your position? Please make any changes to my assumptions about your position. Is your position that if a doctrine states that: GOD PLANNED FOR SIN TO OCCUR then that part of your doctrine is FALSE ??????

2) I believe you stated that if an reasonably intelligent man has died and never heard the gospel, that person could still be in heaven? If that is true my next question is: What has to occur for that person get to heaven?

3) What is an American doing in Italy?

3)never trumper,vowed to leave once he won

Lol

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you freely chose to sin (as I understand it, you can stop as you looked at what God commands and your desire to to obey... so what is the influence causing you to sin?


Yes. It is always wisest to plan things out.
Under your system, God looked into the future (not sure how and your side doesn't either), and says, "holy smokes, look what they are doing ... hmmm, I think I will intercede here and there (semi-deism) ... hmmm, this is entertaining ... all the things these people are doing ... look, Jane has decided to believe in me (not the that affects God ... Job 35:7) ... This idea makes God, to a degree, dependent upon man for his knowledge.
The knowledge of God cannot arise from the things themselves, for then the knowledge of God would have a cause without him; and knowledge, which is an eminent perfection, would be conferred upon him by his creatures.


Predestine, predetermine, plan, decree .. all the same thing pretty much. I believe predestine is used to define that part of his decree concerning who is saved or not... but all similar.
AGAIN, reform doctrine states God predestines, predetermines, plans, decrees everything including sin. "Evil is evil and good is good and evil is never good, yet it is good that evil exists; otherwise God would not have permitted it.
You stumble trying to understand the way God controls His plan. You can't understand the difference between "passive" and "active" control.
The bible in at least 3 places says God planned, predestined, whatever word you want ... for sin to occur.

Now YOU are telling ME what I believe/understand.
Something you said you don't like to have done to you.

Now above you do agree that God predestines sin.
OK.
We're understanding now.....
I also understand this to be the idea of the reformed.

You say you have at least 3 verses that state God planned, or predestined for sin to occur.
Please post them....

My sin nature and my wife (giggles, joking about the wife). Sin nature from Adam (thanks dude) Like being able to see.... I am born with it, it is my nature to see. I was born to sin, when I die God will extract my sin nature (not me doing it via 'free will' or I would have done it myself on this earth).

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow, don't hear that from many Christians. I wonder if JLB and OZ agree.
Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. (I wonder what how I sinned as a 1 celled creature?????
You even use the same verses I would use to prove the imputation of Adam's sin.
Hmmm, maybe communication problem.


So you think God favors his sheep (adopted children) as much as the people He refers to as 'goats' and give the example of rain falling on both. WOW

Being born a sinner DOES NOT mean you are imputed with Adam's sin.,
It means you were born a sinner.

Well, we'll have to tag them in and see what they believe.

Here is what I stated to which they could reply,,,IF they wish to:

Wondering stated:

We are not imputed with Adam's sin.
We are not responsible for our father's sins, but only for our own.
We suffer from the affects of Adam's sin, which cause the fall of all mankind.


Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Death spread to all men, because ALL SINNED,
not because Adam sinned. Adam caused us to become fallen, but we are not responsible for HIS sin.


5:14-17
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam,

Our sins are not like the one of Adam.


and


Second comment
You say God does not do so much for the goats in watching every detail in their lives.
I don't know how anyone could agree with this. God makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

I find that both unsaved persons and saved persons get sick and have problems.
I don't believe the saved are any more fortunate,,,except that they have someone to pray to and to sustain them in their time of sadness.

(full post in no. 397)



JLB
OzSpen

 

[Fastfredy0]

Now YOU are telling ME what I believe/understand.
Something you said you don't like to have done to you.

Ah, you're right. I did put words in your mouth. I should have been more articulate. Apologies.

I often, when stating what I think your opinion is, things like:

and now, correct me if I a wrong...

But I forgot this time. I do get some points back for admitting the over-site (smile)

You say you have at least 3 verses that state God planned, or predestined for sin to occur.
Please post them....

I will when you answer post 416.
Aside: In post 416 I do try to be careful about me stating your opinion with phrases like:
1) Please make any changes to my assumptions about your position
2) and now, correct me if I a wrong...
So, I do make an attempt to not put words in your mouth.