IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[Fastfredy0]

Is that what you believe Fred? That we have faith inserted into us? LLLLol.

Not my best wording. Was trying to keep it simple as possible.
The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Believing that God exists is not the criteria for salvation. Having faith in Jesus is. He said He was the only way. The awareness of God's existence that we get from nature will never tell us about Jesus nor will it tell us what we are to obey. What do you mean by natural law?

Complete agreement. Totally surprised by Wondering's interpreting of the same chapter I would have used to show the opposite of her belief.
I was going to point out that these people all go to hell and ask how is it that these people aren't given the opportunity to exercise free will. Well, she did foil that line of attack.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do all who hear the Gospel, believe? No

Agreed

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14

I take it you feel everyone who does not hear the gospel goes to hell (exception: age of accountability) ??????
Wondering really surprised me when she said those who have not heard the gospel can go to heaven.

 

[OzSpen]

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 1:10

I believe Paul was exhorting us to be in unity, and have no divisions among us.

What do you believe?

Which bible teachers would you recommend to brothers and sisters in Christ to study?

JLB

JLB,

What I believe about 1 Cor 1:10 is irrelevant when compared with the exegesis of the text. What does mē ē ev humin sxhismata mean?

1 Cor 1:10 (TGNT) reads: 'Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα, ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ'.

The NASB translates it as: 'Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions [Lit. schisms] among you, but that you be made complete [or united] in the same mind and in the same judgment'.

Schismata is the nominative, accusative, plural of schisma. The Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon gives the meaning as:

1. 'split, division' (Mt 9:16; Mk 2:21);

2. 'figuratively: division, dissension, schism' ( Jn 7:43; 9:16; 10:19; 1 Cor 1:10; 11:18; 12:25) [BAG 1957:805]

In 1 Corinthians it came to represent sects in that church, e.g. 1 Cor 11:18; 12:25.

I will not recommend Bible teachers as you do not want us referring to Bible teachers on this forum.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Post 386 was my response.


Here it is again -

Christ spoke directly to the people (the children of Israel) through the prophet.


Today we have the New Testament to go by, in which the words of Christ, His teaching, is available for us to follow.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB

#386 said nothing about the Urim and Thumim and the casting of lots that God used to determine his sovereign will in the OT.

 

[OzSpen]

On the same steam ship as you. The point was not whether or not we can sin in heaven (we agree, we cannot) ... the point was to show that we do NOT have 'free will' ... at least not for 99.99999% of our lives.
Similarly, the point of challenging you people to go a week was to show you cannot demostrate 'free will' for even that short a period. I knew we both knew it was not possible, the point was to hi-light 'free will' short comings.

Fred,

• I have a choice to self isolate or face a $1,300 fine;
• I can choose to go to a JW meeting or my evangelical church;
• I can choose beef, pork, or lamb;
• I can choose which Bible translation I want: ESV, NASB, NIV, ESV, NLT, etc.
• I can choose to keep using the warfarin drug to stop a blood clot on my artificial heart valves or I could stop using that daily drug and die.
• I can choose whether I grow in Christ or stagnate.

You are never going to convince me I do not have free will - the ability of contrary choice.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The ten commandments (the law) are still God's requirements for salvation.

WHAT?

 

[Avigdor]

WHAT?

Did you deliberately leave out the rest of what I said In order to portray me on this site as believing something I don't. Take that statement completely out of context to mislead? Or did you not read the entire post? Or were you encapable of understanding what I wrote? Or was I right and that is too hard to take?

 

[Avigdor]

Not my best wording. Was trying to keep it simple as possible.
The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts.

Actually Fred, if I'm not mistaken (and that has happened once or twice in my life), I was quoting what Wondering said you believed and laughing about it.

 

[OzSpen]

Being born a sinner DOES NOT mean you are imputed with Adam's sin.,
It means you were born a sinner.

Well, we'll have to tag them in and see what they believe.

Here is what I stated to which they could reply,,,IF they wish to:

Wondering stated:

We are not imputed with Adam's sin.
We are not responsible for our father's sins, but only for our own.
We suffer from the affects of Adam's sin, which cause the fall of all mankind.


Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Death spread to all men, because ALL SINNED,
not because Adam sinned. Adam caused us to become fallen, but we are not responsible for HIS sin.


5:14-17
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam,

Our sins are not like the one of Adam.


and


Second comment
You say God does not do so much for the goats in watching every detail in their lives.
I don't know how anyone could agree with this. God makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

I find that both unsaved persons and saved persons get sick and have problems.
I don't believe the saved are any more fortunate,,,except that they have someone to pray to and to sustain them in their time of sadness.

(full post in no. 397)



JLB
OzSpen

wondering,

While the language of imputation is not used explicitly in Romans 5, the concept or reality is certainly present (cf. Psalm 32:2; Romans 4:8; 5:13 and 2 Cor 5:19). Imputation introduces the idea that sinners are constituted guilty independent of and prior to their own personal sin.

In Rom 5:12-20, we have the historical view of the imputation of sin.

Note Rom 5:12 (NASB), 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned'.

• In vv. 15-19 we have the one trespass of the one man and that is parallel to the language of v. 12, 'all sinned', i.e. through the one man's sin, all people sinned or became sinners. Sin was imputed to every human being.

• Verses 13–14 form a parenthesis in the argument.

• The 'just as' / 'and so' in Rom 5:12a and 5:12b begin an unfinished sentence whose syntax is not completed until 5:19a and 19b, 'For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous' (NASB). The syntax of 'just as' / 'even so' in 5:19a and 19b connect with 5:12.
  

Thus by one man's act of disobedience is imputed to the entire human race sin and death.

This is compared to another act of obedience that results in life and righteousness. This is the Adam vs Christ analogy of imputation. Adam imputes disobedience. Christ imputes obedience. See Rom 5:15-18.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Did you deliberately leave out the rest of what I said In order to portray me on this site as believing something I don't. Take that statement completely out of context to mislead? Or did you not read the entire post? Or were you encapable of understanding what I wrote? Or was I right and that is too hard to take?

Avigdor,

I read all of what you wrote, but the hinge was your first line: "The ten commandments (the law) are still God's requirements for salvation".

That is a false, works theology of salvation (Eph 2:8-9 NIV). Nobody can keep the law and God forbids works to gain salvation (Gal 3:11 NIV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Looks like we agree that trying to follow the 613 laws in the O.T. is a WORK.

My second comment....that we are NOT saved by works means:
We cannot be saved by doing WORKS for our salvation.
A work MIGHT BE keeping the 613,,,but since we're living in 2020, a work is anything we DO thinking that it will save us.

For instance:
I bring food to my hungry neighbor.
This is very good and the secular world will applaud me,,,
but it will not save me.

As I said...what saves is FAITH.
AFTER we get faith....THEN we are required to obey God and will feed our neighbor.
Matthew 22:37-39

And do every other good work/deed.




No Fred. As I've said....reformed beliefs mess up with scripture.

YOU believe you get faith "inserted into you".
I've asked for scripture on this, but non forthcoming.

I get faith by the grace of God when I come to believe in Him.
It is a gift .... IT IS NOT A WORK.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith....

wondering,

These are some of the verses Calvinists use to support regeneration prior to faith:

Jesus Himself speaks about this very plainly in John 6:63, 65 & 37. He said, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all" (v 63). And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (v 65); "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (v37).

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

Avigdor,

I read all of what you wrote, but the hinge was your first line: "The ten commandments (the law) are still God's requirements for salvation".

That is a false, works theology of salvation (Eph 2:8-9 NIV). Nobody can keep the law and God forbids works to gain salvation (Gal 3:11 NIV).

Oz

Oz,
You know I don't believe what you are suggesting. And I explained exactly what I meant by that sentence so you know what I meant. You said nothing about that, just flew to what----- whatever would put me in the worst possible light? Why focus on the "hinge" whatever that is, instead of what I was actually saying? The subject we were discussing, which was commandments. You completely ignored our conversation topic. Why?

 

[JLB]

Agreed


I take it you feel everyone who does not hear the gospel goes to hell (exception: age of accountability) ??????
Wondering really surprised me when she said those who have not heard the gospel can go to heaven.

Here’s a question —


There’s a person who lives in a remote part of the world, and is a morally upright person, who has never heard of Jesus.


Then there is a born again Christian living in a big city who goes to church quite often, but has a problem with fornication and lying.


Which one is right with God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

What I believe about 1 Cor 1:10 is irrelevant when compared with the exegesis of the text. What does mē ē ev humin sxhismata mean?

1 Cor 1:10 (TGNT) reads: 'Παρακαλῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ ἵνα τὸ αὐτὸ λέγητε πάντες καὶ μὴ ᾖ ἐν ὑμῖν σχίσματα, ἦτε δὲ κατηρτισμένοι ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ νοῒ καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ γνώμῃ'.

The NASB translates it as: 'Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions [Lit. schisms] among you, but that you be made complete [or united] in the same mind and in the same judgment'.

Schismata is the nominative, accusative, plural of schisma. The Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon gives the meaning as:

1. 'split, division' (Mt 9:16; Mk 2:21);

2. 'figuratively: division, dissension, schism' ( Jn 7:43; 9:16; 10:19; 1 Cor 1:10; 11:18; 12:25) [BAG 1957:805]

In 1 Corinthians it came to represent sects in that church, e.g. 1 Cor 11:18; 12:25.



Oz

All this and you don’t know from reading this verse that Paul doesn't want us to be divided?

You even went so far as to say, that I took Paul’s words out of context.




What good does learning Greek and Hebrew do, if a person can’t read a verse a understand something as simple as, not having divisions among us?



Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 1:10


I believe Paul was exhorting us to be in unity, and have no divisions among us.

What do you believe?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Avigdor,

I read all of what you wrote, but the hinge was your first line: "The ten commandments (the law) are still God's requirements for salvation".

That is a false, works theology of salvation (Eph 2:8-9 NIV). Nobody can keep the law and God forbids works to gain salvation (Gal 3:11 NIV).

Oz

People that don’t keep His commandments certainly will not be saved.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4




For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


His commandments are not burdensome.

Keeping His commandments are the biblical definition of love.

• Keeping His commandments are how we remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Jesus taught us to remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


Loving God and loving our neighbor is what the commandments embody.


Those who hate, do not have eternal life.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Its not works salvation, it’s simply obeying our Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Let’s strive to be in unity about these things.




JLB

 

[JLB]

#386 said nothing about the Urim and Thumim and the casting of lots that God used to determine his sovereign will in the OT.

You said that was replaced by the prophets, and I addressed that.

Actually I mentioned the casting of lots in my initial post, that was done in the New Testament, to determine who would replace Judas.

Did you bother to read my post.


Casting lots is done by people who have chosen to serve God and obey Him.

Casting lots was by God’s people to involve God in their decision making.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I will not recommend Bible teachers as you do not want us referring to Bible teachers on this forum.

You may quote a few teachers and another person may use some that teach the opposite of your teachers you follow.


This is what creates division and confusion in the body of Christ.


If we all follow the teachings of Christ found in the scriptures, we can find common ground.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
1 Corinthians 3:1-4


Paul and the writers of the New Testament taught what Christ taught them.


Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20



JLB

 

[WIP]

It seems that this thread is rapidly becoming more about winners and losers than just discussing differences of opinion, viewpoint, and understanding. The owner of this site wants us to avoid these types of arguments because they lead nowhere except toward more animosity. Let's start focusing on where we have common ground and build from there rather than focusing on our differences in order to prove a point. If the attitude of this thread does not change in that direction soon, and I'm talking within this day, I will have to lock the thread. Please, let's step away from the defensive postures and start communicating.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Actually Fred, if I'm not mistaken (and that has happened once or twice in my life), I was quoting what Wondering said you believed and laughing about it.

Ah, thanks for clarification. Easy to misinterpret using this (or any) form of communication.

You've made 1 or 2 mistakes in your lifetime? I thought you were better than that. 22