IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

I understand point '1'. Your definition 'work' in point '2' is unclear. You define 'work' as 'work' in point 2. Can you expand on this? Perhaps you define 'work' in point '1' and point '2' is not a definition, but an example of the use of the word 'work' ... as in ... we can't gain salvation by "The O.T. Law (613)"?

Looks like we agree that trying to follow the 613 laws in the O.T. is a WORK.

My second comment....that we are NOT saved by works means:
We cannot be saved by doing WORKS for our salvation.
A work MIGHT BE keeping the 613,,,but since we're living in 2020, a work is anything we DO thinking that it will save us.

For instance:
I bring food to my hungry neighbor.
This is very good and the secular world will applaud me,,,
but it will not save me.

As I said...what saves is FAITH.
AFTER we get faith....THEN we are required to obey God and will feed our neighbor.
Matthew 22:37-39

And do every other good work/deed.

Agreed. I think the gift of faith is from the Spirit and you think you make the gift (faith) and give it to yourself. I think that is what you are saying. Yes, this is the crux of the issue.

No Fred. As I've said....reformed beliefs mess up with scripture.

YOU believe you get faith "inserted into you".
I've asked for scripture on this, but non forthcoming.

I get faith by the grace of God when I come to believe in Him.
It is a gift .... IT IS NOT A WORK.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith....

 

[Fastfredy0]

Being born a sinner DOES NOT mean you are imputed with Adam's sin.,
It means you were born a sinner.

Well, true enough. I did extrapolate much too far.

Aside: Oh, I didn't know you could "tag" people ... good

OK, this has taken an interesting tangent.
Why are we born in sin? Did God implant it? Is that fair? I assume you believe Adam was not born in sin, why all his children? Did any of Adam's children have a choice?

You say God does not do so much for the goats in watching every detail in their lives.
I don't know how anyone could agree with this. God makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

I find that both unsaved persons and saved persons get sick and have problems.
I don't believe the saved are any more fortunate,,,except that they have someone to pray to and to sustain them in their time of sadness.

Well, I consider giving the sheep the following blessings far superior to what God gives the goats. I guess we have a different value system.

• Acceptable To God By Jesus Christ
• Access To God
• Adoption - Joint Heirs, brother of Christ, Christ like
• Cared For By God
• Chosen Generation, A Holy Nation, A Peculiar People
• Circumcised In Christ
• Citizenship Is In Heaven, Ambassadors On Earth
• Dead To The Flesh (Positionally)
• Delivered From The Power Of Darkness
• Elect (Chosen) (granted, you don't believe this one)
• Eternal Life
• Eternal Plan of God
• Fellowship With Believers
• Forgiven All Trespasses
• Foreknown / Predestined
• Gift From The Father To The Son
• Glorified (Positionally)
• Heavenly Association, Partners With Christ
• Judgment Of Sinner Abolished
• Justified (Positionally Righteous, But By Decree Of God He Is Justified By Divine Recognition)
• Intercession
• Law, Free From
• Light In The Lord
• Made Nigh
• New Body
• New Creation / Complete In Him / In Christ
• Possessing Every Spiritual Blessing
• Propitiation – (Favorably Disposed Toward God)
• Reconciled
• Redeemed/Redemption
• The Rock, Christ Jesus (Foundation Vs. Superstructure)
• Resurrected (Positional)
• Righteous (Positionally, Imputed)
• Royal Priesthood
• Saved
• Sanctified
• Service
• Standing Perfected Forever
• Translated Into The Kingdom Of The Son Of His Love

___________
Agreed, the sheep and goats get a similar amount of rain.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think I recall only three things that I still want you to respond to:

1) Your main 'beef' with REFORMED theology in recent posts is:
Given: Reform theology believes that God, in eternity past, planned out EVERYTHING (right down to the relative position of a spec of dust in any moment of time). I think we agree on this.

and now, correct me if I a wrong...
from of the 'given' above you conclude that because God planned (meant, predestined, controls, predetermined, whatever) sin to occur, that this makes God the Author of sin which is tantamount to God sinning. Therefore, reform thinking in this area cannot possibly be true.
Is this your position? Please make any changes to my assumptions about your position. Is your position that if a doctrine states that: GOD PLANNED FOR SIN TO OCCUR then that part of your doctrine is FALSE ??????

Listen carefully because we must move on:

I don't agree with reformed theology at all.
It makes God a video game player.
It takes away responsibility from man when he sins...
and yet God will damn most to hell for sinning.

I do not agree with UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.
I do not agree that God predetermines EVERYTHING....He set up a "world system"
and this is what makes the world turn.
I DO believe God COULD predetermine anything He would want to, but does not do this
on a regular basis.

You've agreed with me that God predetermines sin...
so we could stop debating this.

Of course, this means that God predetermines all sin since He plans EVERYTHING...
including abortions, murder, rape, Hitler, etc.

2) I believe you stated that if an reasonably intelligent man has died and never heard the gospel, that person could still be in heaven? If that is true my next question is: What has to occur for that person get to heaven?

Yes...except it could be a totally stupid man just as well.
Or anyone that does not have full faculty of their mind.
Or a baby that has not reached the age of reason.

What has to occur?
The person that has full faculties of his mind has to believe in God.
He has to have faith in God and obey and serve God.
He has to be aware of this.

It's not his fault if he never heard the gospel.
Please see Romans 1:19-20
God has revealed Himself to all so that NO ONE can be blameless.

3) What is an American doing in Italy?

LOL
What? You jealous?
Hubby and I moved here a long time ago.
But I'm a Nu Yawka.
But not from Brooklyn!
Queens. New Yorker.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, you're right. I did put words in your mouth. I should have been more articulate. Apologies.

I often, when stating what I think your opinion is, things like:

But I forgot this time. I do get some points back for admitting the over-site (smile)


I will when you answer post 416.
Aside: In post 416 I do try to be careful about me stating your opinion with phrases like:
1) Please make any changes to my assumptions about your position
2) and now, correct me if I a wrong...
So, I do make an attempt to not put words in your mouth.

Done.
And we don't work on a point system here.
You can keep your award.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, true enough. I did extrapolate much too far.

Aside: Oh, I didn't know you could "tag" people ... good

OK, this has taken an interesting tangent.

FF asks:
Why are we born in sin? Did God implant it? Is that fair? I assume you believe Adam was not born in sin, why all his children? Did any of Adam's children have a choice?

Wondering replies:

The fall
No
Not relevant
The fall
Yes as to sinning /No as to being born in sin

Well, I consider giving the sheep the following blessings far superior to what God gives the goats. I guess we have a different value system.

• Acceptable To God By Jesus Christ
• Access To God
• Adoption - Joint Heirs, brother of Christ, Christ like
• Cared For By God
• Chosen Generation, A Holy Nation, A Peculiar People
• Circumcised In Christ
• Citizenship Is In Heaven, Ambassadors On Earth
• Dead To The Flesh (Positionally)
• Delivered From The Power Of Darkness
• Elect (Chosen) (granted, you don't believe this one)
• Eternal Life
• Eternal Plan of God
• Fellowship With Believers
• Forgiven All Trespasses
• Foreknown / Predestined
• Gift From The Father To The Son
• Glorified (Positionally)
• Heavenly Association, Partners With Christ
• Judgment Of Sinner Abolished
• Justified (Positionally Righteous, But By Decree Of God He Is Justified By Divine Recognition)
• Intercession
• Law, Free From
• Light In The Lord
• Made Nigh
• New Body
• New Creation / Complete In Him / In Christ
• Possessing Every Spiritual Blessing
• Propitiation – (Favorably Disposed Toward God)
• Reconciled
• Redeemed/Redemption
• The Rock, Christ Jesus (Foundation Vs. Superstructure)
• Resurrected (Positional)
• Righteous (Positionally, Imputed)
• Royal Priesthood
• Saved
• Sanctified
• Service
• Standing Perfected Forever
• Translated Into The Kingdom Of The Son Of His Love

___________
Agreed, the sheep and goats get a similar amount of rain.

You're putting words in my mouth again about having a different value system.
You NEVER mentioned blessings.

OF COURSE God's CHILDREN have more BLESSINGS than the unsaved.

Please be clear.

 

[Fastfredy0]

YOU believe you get faith "inserted into you".
I've asked for scripture on this, but non forthcoming.

Not so. I gave you a list of 6ish verses showing the source of faith is God ... you responded to Eph. 2:8-9 and said that is a debated verse. Note: I gave you the grammatical breakdown. I gave 20ish verses showing we cannot believe due to our depravity. You did not respond. I give you 3 verses showing repentance is from God; you did not respond. I gave you logic showing your system (the source of faith is yourself ... correct me if misstated ... you for the most part ignore them)
I have held back my fire, so to speak, because you don't respond (a few exceptions, granted) to my verses

I get faith by the grace of God when I come to believe in Him.
It is a gift .... IT IS NOT A WORK.

You have a logic fallacy. To demonstrate simply, allow me to replace the word FAITH in your sentence with BELIEF ... I assume we think them synonyms. So your statement simplified reads. "I get [belief] when I come to believe. Doesn't make sense. Like saying I eating while I am eating.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Yes, hearing is the prerequisite of faith. Lot's of people hear and don't believe. How is the pertinent to the question at hand. Is faith inserted into me by God, or do I do it alone. (Better stated: what comes first, regeneration or faith IMO)

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith....

We discussed this verse. You, as I recall said it's meaning in regard to the source of FAITH (God or man) is debatable. This is the only verse for which I think you have responded to me in regards to "the source of our faith".

Note: As best I can recall, in regards to verses you have put up supporting your view of our "source of our faith", I have responded. Most of the time I point out that your verses say what we must do to be saved but do not tell us why. That is the point of the debate .... "the source of our faith" (not the What to believe, by why did/do we believe)

 

[GodsGrace]

Not so. I gave you a list of 6ish verses showing the source of faith is God ... you responded to Eph. 2:8-9 and said that is a debated verse. Note: I gave you the grammatical breakdown. I gave 20ish verses showing we cannot believe due to our depravity. You did not respond. I give you 3 verses showing repentance is from God; you did not respond. I gave you logic showing your system (the source of faith is yourself ... correct me if misstated ... you for the most part ignore them)
I have held back my fire, so to speak, because you don't respond (a few exceptions, granted) to my verses


You have a logic fallacy. To demonstrate simply, allow me to replace the word FAITH in your sentence with BELIEF ... I assume we think them synonyms. So your statement simplified reads. "I get [belief] when I come to believe. Doesn't make sense. Like saying I eating while I am eating.


Yes, hearing is the prerequisite of faith. Lot's of people hear and don't believe. How is the pertinent to the question at hand. Is faith inserted into me by God, or do I do it alone. (Better stated: what comes first, regeneration or faith IMO)


We discussed this verse. You, as I recall said it's meaning in regard to the source of FAITH (God or man) is debatable. This is the only verse for which I think you have responded to me in regards to "the source of our faith".

Note: As best I can recall, in regards to verses you have put up supporting your view of our "source of our faith", I have responded. Most of the time I point out that your verses say what we must do to be saved but do not tell us why. That is the point of the debate .... "the source of our faith" (not the What to believe, by why did/do we believe)

Fred,,,,
Stop talking about verses and post some.

This YOU SAID, I SAID will get us nowhere.

And you cannot post 40 verses in one post an then keep telling me you posted a lot of verses.

PLEASE post them as they become necessary.
Thanks.


As to WHY WE BELIEVE......
Here's why:

Acts 28:23-24
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

BUT OTHERS WOULD NOT BELIEVE.

WOULD NOT....
negative willingness
willing...the freedom to do or not do

 

[Fastfredy0]

The fall
No
Not relevant
The fall
Yes as to sinning /No as to being born in sin

Guess we will need JLB for clarification. As I understand it you don't believe in the imputation of Adam's sin and I do. To me THE FALL is part of the imputation of Adam's sin ... so I don't see much difference.

You're putting words in my mouth again about having a different value system.
You NEVER mentioned blessings.

OF COURSE God's CHILDREN have more BLESSINGS than the unsaved.

Please be clear.

From a reform perspective we know the Father is taking care of EVERY DETAIL for His children/sheep (not so much the goats). From a 'free will' perspective I have no idea how "we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. "

I was clear IMO. I said EVERY DETAIL for his sheep. You are the one who determined that every does not mean every for it does not include BLESSINGS.
Definition of EVERY: used to refer to all the individual members of a set without exception.

Every ... without exception ... so God looking out for his SHEEP includes BLESSINGS as this is the meaning of the word EVERY (without exception).
Don't get testy, I assume we both are doing our best to communicate.

Aside: You didn't answer my question again about "how does God take care of the sheep when we, of our own 'free will' determine events?
I know you won't answer this but .... fun exercise for me ... consider the following:
Stalin killed 20 million people ... that is a significant number. I imagine under your "free will" system that a few of those 20,000,000, given the opportunity of a normal life span, might have accepted Christ. Let's just say 1/1000 or 20,000 people. So, using your "free will" system as I understand it, not only does an individual determine his own salvation, but it is possible for another to determine one's salvation; in the case Stalin. Comment????

 

[GodsGrace]

Guess we will need JLB for clarification. As I understand it you don't believe in the imputation of Adam's sin and I do. To me THE FALL is part of the imputation of Adam's sin ... so I don't see much difference.




I was clear IMO. I said EVERY DETAIL for his sheep. You are the one who determined that every does not mean every for it does not include BLESSINGS.
Definition of EVERY: used to refer to all the individual members of a set without exception.

Every ... without exception ... so God looking out for his SHEEP includes BLESSINGS as this is the meaning of the word EVERY (without exception).
Don't get testy, I assume we both are doing our best to communicate.

Not testy.
You didn't tag JLB.
JLB

Yes, he can explain to you the difference between the affect of sin and the imputation of sin.

Do you believe YOU are responsible for the sins of your saved friend...?
I doubt you do. Again,,,we are each responsible or our own sins.
We are NOT imputed with Adam's sin...but only suffer from the effects of it.
(one is being born with the sin nature).

Aside: You didn't answer my question again about "how does God take care of the sheep when we, of our own 'free will' determine events?
I know you won't answer this but .... fun exercise for me ... consider the following:
Stalin killed 20 million people ... that is a significant number. I imagine under your "free will" system that a few of those 20,000,000, given the opportunity of a normal life span, might have accepted Christ. Let's just say 1/1000 or 20,000 people. So, using your "free will" system as I understand it, not only does an individual determine his own salvation, but it is possible for another to determine one's salvation; in the case Stalin. Comment????

And under YOUR system....God would have known WHO of those dead He wanted to save and would have taken them to heaven anyway.

Instead Paul teaches:
Hebrews 9:27
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Immediately after death,,,,we go to be where we belong.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Acts 28:23-24
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

Well, unless this last attempt succeeds, I give up. Again, you told me WHAT happened and not the underlying reason WHY it happened. You assume God has nothing to do with it because that fits your bias (this doesn't mean you are wrong... it means this is your current understanding and you tend to see things to support that understanding ... so do I). I agree, these people did something. The verse does not establish why they believed with regard to our two theories/proposals. Agreed, they did it of their own will (they wanted to do it), but WHY did they WILL to do "X" or not do "X".

You say, as I understand it, they looked at the information (gospel) and independently determined it was true (no outside influence, not God, able to overcome biblical statements of depravity). There is not empirical evidence to countermand this assertion and humans gravitate to things they see/touch. The default position.
I say, the Spirit supernaturally REGENERATED them causing them to believe (changing their wills) and present as evidence the 40 verses stating people cannot believe of themselves because of their depravity and 20ish verses saying faith is from God, 20 verses that it is will of God that determines this, verses showing God chose us, ... on and on (no sense presenting them if you can't at least understand the possibility that God changes our will)

Metaphor
I go outside and it starts to rain. I come inside. You say, as I understand it, that the decision to come in out of the rain was totally your own. Maybe so.
I say, God (First Cause) chose you (elect) to come out of the rain via causing it to rain (regeneration). You (second cause) start to get wet and willing come out of the rain. We have no empirical evidence to suggest God caused it to rain so you would go inside. We have no empirical evidence to suggest God did not cause it to rain so you would go inside.

I don't expect you to believe as I do that God gave you faith (regeneration before faith). I do hope/expect you could see the possibility of my proposal being the way God does it. It is only then that one can search scripture further to find support for one contention or the other.
If you can't see your verse does not establish the WHY given all I've said, then I give leave the 'field of debate'. I can see the possibility of yours proposal, if you can't see this verse does not confirm your assertion (you believe independent of God) it is a clear indication to me (IMO) that you can not understand where I am coming from.

Aside: I do admire your excellent knowledge of God. You clearly know your stuff. If we get a jewel in our crown for "studying to show thyself approved" then I am sure you are getting that jewel.

FF

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not testy.
You didn't tag JLB.

Very good.

Yes, he can explain to you the difference between the affect of sin and the imputation of sin.

Not really what I was looking for ...

Yes, he can explain to you the difference between the affect of sin and the imputation of sin.

We are NOT imputed with Adam's sin...but only suffer from the effects of it.
(one is being born with the sin nature).

Hmmm.... I think we are in agreement. Just our common terms mean something a little different to each of us. Still interesting in your comment about people who have not heard the gospel can go to heaven .. how does that work? (Maybe I misread you)

And under YOUR system....God would have known WHO of those dead He wanted to save and would have taken them to heaven anyway.

Well, I was more interested in how your system handled it. Did Stalin determine who went to heaven in this round about way; thus eliminating their "free will"?
Aside: I will give my answer after yours ... no more answering a question with a question and not an answer ... LOL, tricky

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, unless this last attempt succeeds, I give up. Again, you told me WHAT happened and not the underlying reason WHY it happened. You assume God has nothing to do with it because that fits your bias (this doesn't mean you are wrong... it means this is your current understanding and you tend to see things to support that understanding ... so do I). I agree, these people did something. The verse does not establish why they believed with regard to our two theories/proposals. Agreed, they did it of their own will (they wanted to do it), but WHY did they WILL to do "X" or not do "X".

Acts 28 also states WHY some believed and some did not.
It is your theology that does not make you accept what is clearly written.

Please look again:
Acts 28:24 Paul was preaching the gospel....
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

Some persons were being persuaded:

PURSUADED:

verb (used with object), per·suad·ed, per·suad·ing.
1. to prevail on (a person) to do something, as by advising or urging:We could not persuade him to wait.
2. to induce to believe by appealing to reason or understanding; convince:to persuade the judge of the prisoner's innocence.

source: https://www.dictionary.com

This means that thru Paul's urging, advising, through reason, some were coming to believe.

BUT

OTHERS WOULD NOT BELIEVE

This means that although Paul gave reason to believe,,,they WILLED not to believe.

WOULD
verb
1. a simple past tense and past participle of will1.


WILL
1. someone’s determination to do what is necessary to achieve what they want
2. strong/iron will:
Mr Wolski had an iron will and learned to walk again.
3. the will to do something:
Without the will to win, the team won’t go far.
4. battle/clash of wills:
a clash of wills between a manager and an employee

source: https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/will_2

You say, as I understand it, they looked at the information (gospel) and independently determined it was true (no outside influence, not God, able to overcome biblical statements of depravity). There is not empirical evidence to countermand this assertion and humans gravitate to things they see/touch. The default position.

My above explanation is simple and straighforward.
Any other understanding is fabricated by man-made religion.
God desires that ALL be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

IF we adhere to His conditions. CONDITIONAL ELECTION.
1 John 1:1-4 John writes SO THAT WE MAY BELIEVE AND HAVE JOY.

Please post a verse that states God MAKES us believe.

I say, the Spirit supernaturally REGENERATED them causing them to believe (changing their wills) and present as evidence the 40 verses stating people cannot believe of themselves because of their depravity and 20ish verses saying faith is from God, 20 verses that it is will of God that determines this, verses showing God chose us, ... on and on (no sense presenting them if you can't at least understand the possibility that God changes our will)

Please post one or two of your verses showing how we are regenerated BEFORE we believe.

Here is the ordo salutis:
1 John 1:7
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1. God is in the light.
2. We walk in the light.
3. We have fellowship with one another.
4. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Metaphor

I go outside and it starts to rain. I come inside. You say, as I understand it, that the decision to come in out of the rain was totally your own. Maybe so.
I say, God (First Cause) chose you (elect) to come out of the rain via causing it to rain (regeneration). You (second cause) start to get wet and willing come out of the rain. We have no empirical evidence to suggest God caused it to rain so you would go inside. We have no empirical evidence to suggest God did not cause it to rain so you would go inside.

I understand compatible free will Fred.
I don't need a metaphor.

I don't expect you to believe as I do that God gave you faith (regeneration before faith). I do hope/expect you could see the possibility of my proposal being the way God does it. It is only then that one can search scripture further to find support for one contention or the other.
If you can't see your verse does not establish the WHY given all I've said, then I give leave the 'field of debate'. I can see the possibility of yours proposal, if you can't see this verse does not confirm your assertion (you believe independent of God) it is a clear indication to me (IMO) that you can not understand where I am coming from.

I understand very well where you're coming from.
I cannot agree to it because it is not in scripture.
Again,,,please post 2 verses that show me how I am regenerated FIRST
and THEN come to believe. Will be happy to discuss that verse(s).

Aside: I do admire your excellent knowledge of God. You clearly know your stuff. If we get a jewel in our crown for "studying to show thyself approved" then I am sure you are getting that jewel.

FF

Thanks Fred.
And ditto.

 

[GodsGrace]

Very good.


Not really what I was looking for ...



Hmmm.... I think we are in agreement. Just our common terms mean something a little different to each of us. Still interesting in your comment about people who have not heard the gospel can go to heaven .. how does that work? (Maybe I misread you)


Well, I was more interested in how your system handled it. Did Stalin determine who went to heaven in this round about way; thus eliminating their "free will"?
Aside: I will give my answer after yours ... no more answering a question with a question and not an answer ... LOL, tricky

I don't understand you're question about Stalin...?
People, of their own free choice, determine if they go to heaven or hell.
If they believe and obey God,,,they go to heaven, cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
If they do NOT believe they cannot go to heaven because they are not born of above.
John 3:3, 5

Yes,,,sometimes we may use different terms.
No problem.

You have not misread me....
SOME HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL BUT STILL CAN GO TO HEAVEN.
YOU are the one that beleives God is sovereign and feels like the free willers do not.

I actually believe God is MORE sovereign than you do.
God is not in a tiny box we put Him in.
He can do as He wills.

The N.T. teaches that God has revealed Himself to man from THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
Even to those that do not have the bible.
Romans 1:19-20

IF a man sees God in God's creation (nature) and believes God exists and obeys God through the Natural Law....then that man is saved because he is born from above.

If a person DOES NOT believe God exists....or that He exists but the person is not willing to adhere to God's Natural Law,,,,then that person cannot be saved.

It's very simple.

 

[Avigdor]

YOU believe you get faith "inserted into you".
I've asked for scripture on this, but non forthcoming.

Fastfredy0
Is that what you believe Fred? That we have faith inserted into us? LLLLol.

 

[GodsGrace]

 

[Avigdor]

IF a man sees God in God's creation (nature) and believes God exists and obeys God through the Natural Law....then that man is saved because he is born from above.

If a person DOES NOT believe God exists....or that He exists but the person is not willing to adhere to God's Natural Law,,,,then that person cannot be saved.

This does not agree with other things you have said, I am not sure I am understanding right.
Romans tells us that we all know God exists because the natural world makes His existence known. The Bible tells us that no one can be completely obedient to God. Complete obedience, holiness, is required for salvation. Believing that God exists is not the criteria for salvation. Having faith in Jesus is. He said He was the only way. The awareness of God's existence that we get from nature will never tell us about Jesus nor will it tell us what we are to obey. What do you mean by natural law?

 

[jasonc]

View attachment 9756

That's amore...

 

[JLB]

Another verse telling us what we have done and not WHY we did it. The question at hand is: Why do we believe?
Reform Side: Spirit regenerates us, given us faith/repentance. Now, because of this change of heart we willing believe and obey (though not perfectly obey)
Your side: Faith comes by hearing (some on your side ... Wondering, for example ... think those that don't hear can be saved ... I inquired for conformation, no answer yet). Once you hear the gospel you, independent of God (he does not regenerate you first), can decide to believe or not believe. (to be fair, you should state your own view point, I think this is it)

Please give verses telling us WHY one believes, not that people believe. We both again that people believe.

Aside: Some on your side think you can believe for a while, then unbelieve, then believe, then unbelieve, then .... hopefully you die during a 'believing time period" in this lottery of life. (sarcasm intended, not personal)

We believe because we hear the Gospel.

Do all who hear the Gospel, believe? No, unfortunately not.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
I'm being told I don't understand Calvinism.
I think we should stick to biblical verses so we could all be on the same "page",
and discuss what the writer's of the bible believed, instead of what men believed.

Could you imagine me coming on here and posting the CCC for my support...
I'm not Catholic but know the CCC really well and could use it with my eyes closed.
But it wouldn't be right.

wondering,

Let's start with a discussion of these two verses:

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:27-28 NIV).​

These are the words of Jesus who said his blood - the blood of the covenant - was poured out FOR MANY. He didn't say FOR ALL.

How would you respond to this verse that is used in support of particular redemption?

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

SOME HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL BUT STILL CAN GO TO HEAVEN.
YOU are the one that beleives God is sovereign and feels like the free willers do not.

Phew, got that answer thx.
I believe 'free willers' believe God is sovereign. You define it, in my opinion, slightly differently because you believe he operates (rules) differently.