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John 3:3-5 speaks of being born again, being born of Spirit and born of water.

The role of water is water baptism.

The role of the Holy Spirit is His word that instructs men on how to be saved (believe repent confess and baptism). Those that obey those instructions are said to be born again by the word (1 Pet 1:23) begat/born by the word (James 1:18). Eph 3:4 says men and read and understand and says nothing about supernatural intervention of the Holy Spirit.

Again, if understanding requires supernatural intervention of the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit has culpability in those lacking in understanding.

1 Cor 12:3 no one can Jesus is Lord except he get his information from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit gives out that information in His written word which men can read and understand.

1 Cor 2:14 " But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
This does not say men cannot understand the Bible such an idea contradicts Eph 3:4; Eph 5:27.
The natural man in this context is the man that hears God's word understands it but rejects it. It says nothing about inability to understand.

--if the natural man cannot understands the Bible when he reads/hears it, then how can he understand any newspaper, magazine tv show that he hears and sees?

--the verse says the things of God are foolishness to the spiritual man. For the natural man to judge it as foolishness shows he must have some understanding of God's word, processed it (understood it) to judge it as foolishness. For the natural man here to judge the gospel as foolish then he must know something about what the gospel says, claims.
Acts 7, Stephen preached the gospel to lost, "unregenerate", spiritually dead men. They UNDERSTOOD what Stephen preached to them but they did not like it. They rejected and hated it so much they killed Stephen. They did not kill Stephen because they did not understand what he preached but killed him for they DID understand and hated it. Acts 7:54 " When they heard these things.." Heard carrie the idea of understanding. They understood and were "cut to the heart".
On the other hand in Acts 2 we again have lost spiritually dead men who heard the gospel preached by Peter. They understood what Peter preached and 'pricked in the heart" by it and believed it and asked what they must do. They did not ask Peter what they must do because they did not understand what he preached.

--"spiritually judged" things are spiritually judged by the written word (Acts 17:11). Those that hear (understand) the word but reject the word will have no interest in spiritual things as those in Jeremiah 8:9 rejected it.

1 Corinthians Chapter 2 is all about Heavenly wisdom that the natural (carnal) mind can not understand as it is all foolishness to them.

Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus is speaking about Spiritual ears that are imperative for Spiritual understanding that comes when we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things of the hidden mysteries of the word of God. The disciples could not understand the teachings of Christ until they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit who gave them the Spiritual understanding of what Jesus taught, before Jesus sent them out into the nations preaching the Gospel.

The natural man is the one born from their mothers womb. The Spiritual inner man is born of the Spirit. The natural can not perceive the things of the Spirit as it is foolishness to their hearing.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
I'm not talking about the severely mentally handicapped as that is a given. For the rest if you want to read into something that is not there then so be it.
Romans 7:8-9
"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
"

As an adult, Saul/Paul knew right from wrong, he knew God's law and had sinned therefore "died". So he cannot be talking about himself as an adult when he says "I was alive with the law once".

Yet when he was an infant/child he was alive without sin, innocent before God and being 'without law" means sin had no power over him, sin was dead to him being without law as an infant/child..

Mentally matured adults would know right from wrong (Romans 2:14) and have no excuse (Romans 1:20), ignorance is no excuse Romans 10:3
 
1 Corinthians Chapter 2 is all about Heavenly wisdom that the natural (carnal) mind can not understand as it is all foolishness to them.

Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus is speaking about Spiritual ears that are imperative for Spiritual understanding that comes when we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things of the hidden mysteries of the word of God. The disciples could not understand the teachings of Christ until they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit who gave them the Spiritual understanding of what Jesus taught, before Jesus sent them out into the nations preaching the Gospel.

The natural man is the one born from their mothers womb. The Spiritual inner man is born of the Spirit. The natural can not perceive the things of the Spirit as it is foolishness to their hearing.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In post #164 I dealt with 1 Cor 2 and showed how lost, spiritually dead men in Acts 7 understood what was preached to them by Stephen and rejected it prompting them to kill Stephen. And how lost spiritually dead men in Acts 2 heard what Peter preached to them understood it and believed it prompting them to ask Peter what they must do.

If you need more information on 1 Cor 2, I can give it to you.
 
John 14:26 from the context, the words are being spoken to the Apostles who would be given the Holy Spirit. It is not a reference that all men would be given understanding from the Holy Spirit. The Apostles, as other Bible writers, were miraculous inspired. Therefore this verse has no application to anyone today for no one today is inspired having remembrance of 'all things'.

Scriptures alone (2 Tim 3:16-17) is all man needs to know the will of God and not Scripture plus something else. Why have commentaries, books on Greek and Hebrew language/grammar, books on exegesis of the Bible, etc been written if the Holy Spirit is just going to 'zap' knowledge into the minds of people?

--How can a person objectively prove to myself and others that their understanding has been given to them by the Holy Spirit? They cannot.
--Can a person ever amend/change their view on a particular verse or context from the understanding given them by the Holy Spirit? They cannot else the Holy Spirit was in error.
--If the Holy Spirit is unable to give man in written form (the Bible) that is which is understandable how can we be sure the subjective, claimed knowledge the Holy Spirit gives people today can be understood or is being understood correctly? We cannot.
--earlier I have pointed out verses Eph 3:4 that says one can read and understand the Bible along with Eph 5:17. Therefore if a Christian does not have understanding then the accountability of their lack of understanding is solely upon Holy Spirit and His failure to give them understanding.
--How many people claim their understanding has been "illuminated" by the Holy Spirit yet they contradict the Bible and each other!?!

And there lays the problem of your communication with us as you seem to not understand the scriptures as you use the natural man, being self, to teach you. You might want to study what the Spiritual rebirth from above and the indwelling Holy Spirit is all about in order to have Christ in you and you in Him.
 
For those that do not want to understand the fact that God's free gift of salvation is CONDIOTNAL and working to meet the conditions that God Himself has placed upon HIs free gift does not in any way earn the free gift will, then they will never have a correct understanding of Biblical salvation.




This is purely anecdotal with no scriptural basis. One person can claim he was saved this way and another person can claim he saved that way but with no scriptural support it is meaningless.

One's personal testimony how they came to know Christ and have a personal relationship with Him varies from person to person as we all came to Him in different ways that has nothing to do with scripture, but us hearing God calling and drawing us unto Him.
 
--The "not of works" eliminates works of merit and not obedience. If "not of works" eliminates ALL works then that would contract the very next verse Eph 2:10 that REQUIRES the Christian to do works. One cannot become a Christian but then have no good works, have no fruit and expect to be saved anyway, John 15:1-6. Therefore those good works are NECESSARY to be saved but they do not in anyway earn salvation but a necessary condition God has put upon His free gift of salvation. Also, how can one 'boast' about his obedience when no one's obedience is sinlessly perfect but will be flawed with sin?

--submitting to water baptism is something a person DOES but it earns nothing:

1) the healing of Naaman was by grace but God required Naaman dip in the river 7 times. The dipping was a condition God placed upon His gracious gift of healing therefore the work in dipping could not earn this free gracious gift. Likewise, submitting to baptism is just a condition God has placed upon His free gift of salvation and does not earn His free gift no more than Naaman's work in dipping earn God's free gift.

2) Some also do not understand, or do not want to understand, the difference between a man doing GOD'S righteousness and man doing his OWN righteousness. Again, Romans 10:3 has two different types of works in that one verse:
Work #1) establishing their OWN righteousness (does not save)
Work #2) submitting/obeying GOD's rightoeusness (does save)

Doing/obeying God's righteousness does not earn salvation but obeying is simply meeting the conditions God has placed upon His free gift of salvation.

When God says for a man to believe repent confess and be baptized and a man obeys/submits unto these things, then that man is doing GOD'S righteousness. If man does something other than what God has said (as faith only), then that man is trying to save himself by his OWN righteousness.

Those Jews in Romans 10:1-3 were lost for they were going about doing their OWN righteousness (own traditions) and would not obey GOD's righteousness in that they would not believe, would not confess, would not obey the gospel Romans 10:16 as God requires of men.

Note in Titus 3:5 how that washing of water (water baptism) is contrasted from "works of righteousness we have done" that is, works of self-righteousness. Hence submitting to water baptism is a matter of obeying GOD's righteousness and not a matter of man doing his OWN righteousness.

3) lastly, John 3:5 speaks of one birth consisting of two elements, water and Spirit. Nothing in this context shows that water means anything other than literal "water" or that "Spirit" means anything other than the literal Spirit. Water here refers to literal water baptism as can be seen a few verses later John 3:22-23.

The Bible being its own best commentary shows:
John 3:5--------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-----Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Titus 3:5--------Holy Ghost+++++laver of water>>>>>>saved


All of these 'born again' verses contain the same two elements, Spirit and water. The role of water in the new birth is obviously water baptism. The role of the Spirit in the new birth is His word that instructs men on how to be saved (water baptism). So those that follow the Spirit's instructions in his word are said to be - born again by the word (1 Peter 1:23), - begat by the word (James 1:18).

Eph 2:8 -----faith>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then NT faith includes baptism. It all fits together perfectly while Luther's "faith only" throws a wrench into it causing many contradictions among verses.

I never followed the teachings of Luther so I have no idea what he taught.

The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.





There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.
 
I never followed the teachings of Luther so I have no idea what he taught.

The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.





There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first. After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.
The baptism of Acts 2:38 is Christ's baptism of the great commission, Matt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16, Luke 24:47. Luke's account of the great commission says " And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." This was carried out by Peter in Acts 2, Peter was in Jerusalem and preached repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

Christ's baptism of the great commission was;
-commanded (Acts 2:38)
-carried out by men in water (see Acts 8:38)
-saves (for remission of sins Acts 2:38) (Mark 16:16)
-was to be taught to the lost (Matt 28:19-10 teaching them all things I have commanded you)
-lasts till the end of time (Matt 28:19-20)

None of the above is true about any 'baptism with the Holy Spirit", no such baptism exists today.

------------------

Peter in Acts 2 quotes prophecies from Joel and those prophecies were fulfilled in Acts 2.

Joel 2:32 " And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: " Peter quotes this prophecy in Acts 2:21. This prophecy was fulfilled in Acts 2:38:

call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sin

'Calling upon the name of the Lord' means doing what the Lord says to do (Luke 6:46) in repenting and being baptized Luke 13:3; Mark 16:16.

Joel prophesied " And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;" .Joel 2:28. Peter quotes this in Acts 2:17 " And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: ..". Peter connected the Holy Spirit falling upon the Apostles with this prophecy of Joel in Acts 2:16 " But this (HS falls upon Apostles) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; " Therefore we have confirmation that the Holy Spirit falling upon the Apostles is tied directly to Joel's prophecy.

Points to note:
--"all flesh" does not mean every person universally nor refers to animals which have flesh. Back at that time they divided humanity into two groups, Jew and Gentile, hence Jew and Gentile make up "all flesh".
--In Acts 2 we have the HS falling upon the Apostles (Jews) and the only other instant of this happening is in Acts 10 with Cornelius (Gentile). Peter (Acts 11:15) ties the HS falling upon the Gentiles to the Apostles as "the beginning" in Pentecost Acts 2.
--therefore we now have "all flesh" (Jew and Gentile) having the Spirit poured out upon them fulfilling Joel's prophecy and bring it to an end, ceased. The 'one baptism' (Eph 4:4-5) is the water baptism of Christ's commission that lasts till the end of time.
--Acts 8:28 the Spirit sent Phillip to water baptize the eunuch. No "spirit baptism" here.

-------------------------------------------------

In John 3 Jesus says to Nicodemus " Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again " John 3:7. The word "must' makes being born again an imperative, a necessity, no exceptions.
If the new birth here in John 3:5 is some kind of 'spirit baptism" and a person has not received this baptism from Christ then who is at fault? How can man be at fault for something out of his control? How can a man be rightly justly condemned for what is out of his control? Yet water baptism has been commanded to man and those men that fail to submit to water baptism, the accountability, responsibility fall upon them, not the Holy SPirit.
There is no verse in the NT commanding men to be 'spirit baptized' as there are commands to be water baptized. Not possible to obey a command to be 'spirit baptized' when such a verse does not exist.

---------------------------------------------

Jn 4:1-2 " When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)" Jesus did baptize (verse1). He did not water baptize men Himself personally but water baptized men by having given His authority to water baptize to His disciples to go and baptize men.
 
One's personal testimony how they came to know Christ and have a personal relationship with Him varies from person to person as we all came to Him in different ways that has nothing to do with scripture, but us hearing God calling and drawing us unto Him.
There is but just one way to be saved, all that will be saved will be saved in a 'like manner' way, Acts 15:11. There is no variance in how men are saved.
 
And there lays the problem of your communication with us as you seem to not understand the scriptures as you use the natural man, being self, to teach you. You might want to study what the Spiritual rebirth from above and the indwelling Holy Spirit is all about in order to have Christ in you and you in Him.
Again, the Bible does not tell us the the Holy Spirit miraculously illuminates one's understanding. Nor can those that claim such prove such subjectivity.
 
Again, the Bible does not tell us the the Holy Spirit miraculously illuminates one's understanding. Nor can those that claim such prove such subjectivity.

I disagree.
Chapter 2 of Acts.
The Holy Spirit came upon the believers.
Peter gave quite an address to the people.
Then came the fellowship of the believers.

Go ahead, read it.
Then tell me the Holy Spirit did not illuminate one's understanding.
Not just Peter, but everyone who was a believer.
The beginning of Christianity was also the beginning of being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Paul expands on this with the guidance we give each other through our walk with the Holy Spirit.
 
I disagree.

I disagree.

Rollo Tamasi said:
Chapter 2 of Acts.
The Holy Spirit came upon the believers.
Peter gave quite an address to the people.
Then came the fellowship of the believers.

Go ahead, read it.
Then tell me the Holy Spirit did not illuminate one's understanding.
Not just Peter, but everyone who was a believer.
The beginning of Christianity was also the beginning of being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Paul expands on this with the guidance we give each other through our walk with the Holy Spirit.

(1) It was just the Apostles that was promised the Comforter/Holy Spirit John 14:16,26; John 15:26 for the purpose of inspiration in teaching them all things and bringing all things to their remembrance. No one today is inspired by the Holy Spirit as the Apostles ( and other Bible writers) were inspired.

(2) Matthew 3:11 " I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: "

This verse, context does not tell us who Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. In this verse 11 John is speaking to Jews, Pharisees that had come to his baptism Matt 3:7. John says to these Pharisees in verse 11 "I baptize you with water". Why would John say he baptized those Pharisees with water when he had not, when the Pharisees rejected John's baptism (Luke 7:30)? It becomes apparent that John is using both pronouns "you" in a generic fashion and is not referring to anyone in particular in this verse. We therefore cannot tell from Matt 3:11 exactly who Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. (Many people today try and make themselves the second "you" when neither pronoun 'you' refers to anyone today.)

To find out who it is Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost we can look to the fulfillment of John's words found in Acts 1:1-5. In this context Jesus is speaking to no one but His Apostles and in verse 5 Jesus even refers back to John's word of Matt 3:11. Now we know it is the Apostles Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit, no else on Pentecost was made this promise and in Acts 2 it was just the Apostles the Holy Spirit fell upon and spoke in tongues.**

**From Acts 1:11 we know the Apostles from Galilee, a good distance from Jerusalem. In Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit fell upon the Apostles they could speak in dialects other than their own native Galilaean language. After the Apostles spoke in tongues we are told " Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them (Apostles) speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? " Acts 2:6-7. The ones that spoke in tongues were "these which speak Galilaeans". If the entire multitude had the Holy Ghost fall upon them and spoke in tongues then that means the entire multitude there in Jerusalem must have all been from Galilee. Not one person from Jerusalem or elsewhere had the Holy Spirit fall upon them and speak in tongues. This is too improbable to have happen.

Lastly acts 2:1 says " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. " The nearest plural antecedent to the pronoun 'they' in Acts 2:1 is the Apostles of Acts 1:26.

It was just the APostles in Acts 2 that had the Holy Spirit fall upon them and spoke in tongues, it was the other 11 that Peter stood with: " But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" Acts 2:14. (Again, only those from Galilee had the Holy Spirit poured out upon them and spoke in tongues.) Furthermore, Acts 2: 37 it was the Apostles to whom the multitude addressed this question (what must we do?) implying it was just the Apostles speaking in tongues showing the HS had fallen upon the Apostles alone.

=============

Additional information I found about the Apostles being from Galilee and speaking Galilaean: "

"GALILEANS"-"Galilean men came from a despised district (John 7:52) where education was scanty, the standard of culture low, and the spoken dialect was peculiar (Mark 14:30)....the apostles dress would have aided in their identification by the devout men.." (Reese p. 51) "This was an international, multi-lingual crowd which gathered...Yet the speakers were known to be Galileans..who had a reputation for being uncultured..so they were looked down upon by the people of Jerusalem as being provincial." (Stott p. 65)

Galileans spoke a rude Aramaic...i.e. they didn"t even excel in their own native language-not to mention a foreign dialect.
" Dungan Commentary.


========

Those in Acts 2 obtain their understanding of the gospel by words preached to them by Peter, they heard those words, understood them and pricked in the heart prompting them to ask Peter what they must do and Peter gave more instruction in telling them to repent and be baptized. The Holy Spirit therefore gives understanding to men by His word being taught or read and not in any supernatural way apart from the word. Just as those in Acts 7 heard the word preached to them by Stephen, understood what Stephen preached and hated what they heard to the point of killing Stephen. They did not kill Stephen because they did not understand what he preached. They understood Stephen was condemning them just as those in acts 2 understood Peter was condemning the for crucifying the Messiah.
 
Acts 10:44-46 says, “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word. And the believers who were of the circumcision, as many as had accompanied Peter, were amazed, because on the Gentiles also the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out; for they heard them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.”

It seems you have a lop-sided understanding of Scripture.
Nothing that you support has Scriptural support.
You need to be retaught Scripture.
Do you have someone at home that can do that for you?
There are several people on this forum who can teach you if you are willing.
 

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