When did the Church begin?

[Ernest T. Bass]

you better read up on that because your wrong baptism of the spirit occurs the moment we get saved

Not a single verse says such. Again there is ONE BAPTISM in effect today (Eph 4:4-5) that one being the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission that saves, that is commanded, that is for all nations/creature, that is to be taught, that lasts till the end of time, Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16. Baptism with the Holy Spirit has not been commanded to anyone only promised to the Apostles (Acts 1:1-5) baptism with the HS does not save, it is not for every creature/nature, does not last till the end of time.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I never mentioned the word "redeemed".
Not at all in vain.
Without His blood covering the sins of men who didn't have the atonements of the Mosaic Law, all non-Jews would perish.
However, His death and resurrection also provided the NT men with a way to cease from sin entirely.
Instead of just forgiveness, as available in the OT, we now have the ability to permanently turn from sin.
That wasn't available in the OT.
They walked in the flesh we can now crucify with the affections and lusts.
We can now, thanks to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
By His blood, not only are past sins forgiven, but sin itself is taken away.

My point has been those OT characters had to have a price to be paid for redemption of their sins (Heb 9:15) and that came in the form of Christ dying on the cross. Obviously Christ did not die during the lives of Noah, Abraham, David, etc which means the forgiveness of their sins was in promise, their redemption was looking forward to the day Christ did die.

Since CHrist has died, His death does not make it impossible for Christians to sin but as long as Christian continue to walk in the light Christ shed blood continues to wash away all sins of the Christian, 1 Jn 1:7

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It doesn't.
I was trying to make it clear that some were "saved" before Christ was raised from the dead.
His blood didn't "go back in time" to cleanse them from sins.

They had the promise of salvation, the promise of forgiveness as long as they remained faithful. For those that did remain faithful unto death then that promise was fulfilled when Christ did die. None could have their sins removed BEFORE Christ died, NONE could have been redeemed BEFORE Christ died. Heb 9:15 does show that Christ's blood/death would go back and redeem them under the OT law.

"Rolled forward a year"?
I think you are jumping to conclusions.

Heb 10
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Yes, those sacrifices had to be made yearly for there was a remembrance of those sins yearly. So the sacrifices rolled their sins ahead a year and then there was a remembrance of those sins and sacrifices had to made for those sins. Therefore their sins were always before them because ' it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins'. Those OT sacrifices could never 'make the comers thereunto perfect'. That would tkae the blood of Christ.

I am not "confused" by your premise at all.
They walked in the flesh and committed sins.
The Mosaic Law provided atonements for their sins.
If Moses and Elijah needed a future atonement for their past sins they would not have been sent to converse with Jesus on the mountain top.


Very imaginative, but it is a bandage for a fake "conflict".

The law of Moses could not take away their sins, it could not justify them. All the law of Moses would do is condemn. Only the shed blood of Christ can take away sins, not the law of Moses. If the law of Moses could take away sins and justify, make one righteous then Christ died in vain, Gal 2:21

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I didn't read in promise. I read Jesus had authority to forgive sins.
First of all I didn't bring up OT characters. I stated "Jesus" had authority to forgive sins. They were clean because He took their guilt away. He forgave their sins. I gave examples.
2nd of all I am willing to concede the church, as we have today, has in its statements and beliefs about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. So that could not have begun until after the resurrection.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

And my point has been and continues to be that forgiveness under the OT law BEFORE Christ shed His blood was in promise looking toward the day Christ shed His blood. When Christ finally did shed His blood then the promise was realized, fulfilled and their sins were then forgiven in whole. But Christ had to FIRST shed His blood before the forgiveness could actually take place. No one under the OT or NT will be saved apart from the shed blood of Christ.

It appears yourself and Hopeful are trying to have the sins of men washed away and men redeemed BEFORE Christ shed His blood.

 

[JLB]

The blood of Christ could not take away the sins of those OT characters if that blood had not yet been shed... no matter how much faith they had. So the forgiveness of sins under the OT was in promise looking toward the day Christ would shed His blood. Those that had an obedient faith THEN had their sins removed by the shed blood of Christ.

I think we are very close in agreement.

The point being however, the Church, The Ecclesia, The Holy Nation, The Royal Priesthood, The Congregation of the Righteous, began with Abraham, in which we who are in Christ have been grafted into the Natural Olive Tree;
The Israel of God. — The Household of Christ.


For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:16-21


Can everyone see that we are all apart of what is called the
Natural Olive Tree, which is the Household of Family of Christ?

• being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree

JLB

 

[JLB]

It appears yourself and Hopeful are trying to have the sins of men washed away and men redeemed BEFORE Christ shed His blood.

It also appears that you are negating the fact that God see’s that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world and those names were in the Lamb’s book of Life before the world began.


All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8


JLB

 

[Randy]

And my point has been and continues to be that forgiveness under the OT law BEFORE Christ shed His blood was in promise looking toward the day Christ shed His blood. When Christ finally did shed His blood then the promise was realized, fulfilled and their sins were then forgiven in whole. But Christ had to FIRST shed His blood before the forgiveness could actually take place. No one under the OT or NT will be saved apart from the shed blood of Christ.

It appears yourself and Hopeful are trying to have the sins of men washed away and men redeemed BEFORE Christ shed His blood.

I only pointed out that Jesus had authority to forgive sins at His will. That is to give "life".
It appears that those He forgave believed in Him. They were made clean by the word He spoke to them.

In addition lets point out that "Jesus" is the judge.

 

[Hopeful]

Ok, so if a person is walking in Covenant Relationship with the Lord, in which they have His Spirit within them so that they are one with Him, thereby obeying Him, they are not a part of the Church because there was “no Christian church“ in those days?

In "those days" there was no Christian church.

What kind of church was there in those days?

Jewish synagogues.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38

As the word "church" isn't used even once in the OT, Stephen's exchange with the Jews used "present time" (for him) terminology to imply a "group"...not the Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)

Do you believe a person must be baptized with the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost to be part of the Church?

Yes.
Plus they must have repented of sin and been water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

 

[Hopeful]

The Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ the Lord, not the beast.

Agreed, but...
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8)
It is those whose names are NOT in the Lamb's book of life who are praising the beast.
The "him" of verse 8 is the beast from the four prior verses.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus was, is and always will be God’s Message of salvation.
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1
This LORD, YHWH the Lord God, is Jesus Christ.
JLB

Were that true, then Jesus existed before He was born of a woman and God's seed.
It was the Word that existed before taking on flesh.

Practically, it is simple semantics, but I feel that there was no Jesus before there was a Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53
JLB

Jesus' resurrection didn't occur till the third day after the curtain was torn.

 

[jerry63935]

baptism with the HS does not save,

just how do you think we placed into the Body of Christ

 

[JLB]

It is those whose names are NOT in the Lamb's book of life who are praising the beast.

Ok. Agreed.


Im just showing that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. That there are people whose names were written in it before the foundation of the world.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus' resurrection didn't occur till the third day after the curtain was torn.

And yet there were people’s names written in the Lambs book of Life before the foundation of the world.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It was the Word that existed before taking on flesh.

You do understand that the Lord God, YHWH is Jesus Christ, right?

This Lord God —

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Ok. Agreed.

Im just showing that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. That there are people whose names were written in it before the foundation of the world.

The knowledge of His slaying was since the foundation of the world, but that slaying didn't happen till 2000 years ago.
That death can't influence those born before it happened.

 

[Hopeful]

And yet there were people’s names written in the Lambs book of Life before the foundation of the world.

Yes.
What percentage of those folks have had their names erased from the book of life? (Rhetorical question)
Everybody is in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
God knows everything from the foundation of the world.
I can't remember the point we are discussing???

 

[Hopeful]

You do understand that the Lord God, YHWH is Jesus Christ, right?

This Lord God —

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

I don't agree.
If it wasn't Father Himself who appeared to Abram it was the Word.
There was no Jesus till there was a Jesus born of a virgin.

 

[JLB]

Yes.
What percentage of those folks have had their names erased from the book of life? (Rhetorical question)
Everybody is in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
God knows everything from the foundation of the world.
I can't remember the point we are discussing???

Everyone?


That’s interesting.

 

[JLB]

I don't agree.
If it wasn't Father Himself who appeared to Abram it was the Word.
There was no Jesus till there was a Jesus born of a virgin.

God the Father appeared to one.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:18

Jesus is the Son of God; The only begotten of the Father.

He appeared to many in the Old Testament.

• He appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

• He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, and spoke face to face with Him.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:1-6

• He spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1

• He created the heavens and the earth.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• He became flesh and died for our sins.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

• Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God; The Lord of the Old Testament. He is coming soon to Judge the living and the dead, and to take His throne in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth.

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:4-5



Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8





JLB