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When did the Church begin?

Do you believe the Church began on the day of Pentecost?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 61.1%
  • No

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • Other.

    Votes: 2 11.1%

  • Total voters
    18

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It also appears that you are negating the fact that God see’s that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world and those names were in the Lamb’s book of Life before the world began.


All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8


JLB
Christ's blood that takes away sin was not shed until He died on the cross THEN sins could be taken away (Heb 9:26-28). Therefore the forgiveness under the OT law was in promise looking to the cross and Christ's shed blood.

Rev 13:8 God's plan in redeeming man from His sins was devised and happened in the mind of God before the foundation of the world (1 Per 1:19-20) and carried out at the cross when Christ came to earth to do the will of God..
 
I think we are very close in agreement.

The point being however, the Church, The Ecclesia, The Holy Nation, The Royal Priesthood, The Congregation of the Righteous, began with Abraham, in which we who are in Christ have been grafted into the Natural Olive Tree;
The Israel of God. — The Household of Christ.


For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:16-21


Can everyone see that we are all apart of what is called the
Natural Olive Tree, which is the Household of Family of Christ?



  • being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree




JLB
The church was prophesied about in the OT and came to fruition in Acts 2 at Pentecost.
 
Christ's blood that takes away sin was not shed until He died on the cross THEN sins could be taken away (Heb 9:26-28). Therefore the forgiveness under the OT law was in promise looking to the cross and Christ's shed blood.

Which is why the Church was contained in paradise, in the heart of the earth, until Christ descended and was revealed to them in Abraham’s Bosom.



JLB
 
The church was prophesied about in the OT and came to fruition in Acts 2 at Pentecost.

So you are saying only those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues as on that day of Pentecost are part of the Church?



JLB
 
1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism, as Paul himself water baptized some of the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16.

1 Corinthians 12:13 is certainly not water baptism.

This is plainly showing the Spirit as Baptizer.

Water baptism is done by man.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is done by Jesus Christ Himself.


You don’t just get to change what the scriptures say to suit your pet doctrine.



JLB
 
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I understand there was forgiveness under the OT law. My point has been that the forgiveness under the OT law was in promise looking toward the day Christ died and shed His blood, then the sins of those who lived under the OT law were forgiven in reality.
I didn't bring up OT law. I brought up "Jesus" and His authority.
Jesus is in heaven now.
You seem to have a problem with His authority when He walked the earth as the Son of Man.

Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
 
Does "will" build my church indicate a future time to you as it does to me?
Yes, but those righteous, as deemed by God, who died pre-christ would be grandfathered into those the Father gives to Jesus. There is only one family. In Christ ALL things hold together and are sustained. In Christ we live. Just as Abraham, Issac and Jacob will live in Christ. They also belong to Jesus as He stated about the feast as He gathers His own from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth on the last day.
I do view church as Jesus stated as the body of Christ which began with the living. As in the church we have today began with the great commission which is post resurrection. Which was established under the covenant Jesus introduced by His blood to all nations. We do have testimony that the gospel message was preached to the dead as well. Those that died during the flood in the days of Noah. So that though they were judged according to the flesh they might live according to the spirit.
 
Are you saying you agree or disagree, that we who are in Christ, are grafted into the natural olive tree?

  • The root that supports the olive tree is the Lord, and the covenant He made with Abraham.

This is how the blessing of Abraham comes upon the Gentiles in Christ.


Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


  • that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Blessing = eternal life (the Spirit of Christ), protection from enemies, physical health, as well being prosperous, having enough and some let over to be a blessing, (which has been exploited by greedy preachers).





JLB
But the promise in regard to "seed" means Christ. It is fulfilled in Christ. If Jesus had not been resurrected then there is no resurrection which would apply to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. So in that sense Christ died for them as well. So when did the church start? With Jesus not before.
 
I didn't bring up OT law. I brought up "Jesus" and His authority.
Jesus is in heaven now.
You seem to have a problem with His authority when He walked the earth as the Son of Man.

Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
Jesus was alive and on earth and under the OT law. So forgiveness under the OT law was in promise looking to when Christ did die and shed His blood.
 
1 Corinthians 12:13 is certainly not water baptism.

This is plainly showing the Spirit as Baptizer.

Water baptism is done by man.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is done by Jesus Christ Himself.


You don’t just get to change what the scriptures say to suit your pet doctrine.



JLB
--Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself. They were then NOT baptized with a second 'spirit baptism' since there is one baptism Eph 4:4-5.

--HOW does the Spirit baptize men? Does the Spirit baptize men personally Himself? No. If He does then why then did the Spirit not spirit baptize the eunuch instead of sending for Phillip to water baptize the eunuch? Because water baptism is means by which God saves not any kind of "spirit baptism".

--Jn 4:1"When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)" How can it be said Jesus baptized men Himself when in fact He did not? Because He baptized men by giving His authority to the disciples to water baptize in His name, Mt 28:19-20. Likewise the Holy Spirit baptizes the same way as Christ, not personally but by His authority ..baptism them in the name of (by authority of) the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

--the Bible being its own best commentary we have:
Jn 3:5-------------Spirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-----Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Ghost+++++laver of water>>>>>>saved

Since there is just one way to be saved then "water" is equivalent to "baptized" which is equivalent to "laver of water" so there is clearly water baptism is all 3 verses.
 
So you are saying only those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues as on that day of Pentecost are part of the Church?



JLB
Just the Apostles in Acts 2 we baptized with the HS and spoke with tongues. So the Apostles and others who obeyed Acts 2:38 and we water baptized we added to the church. And those today who obey Acts 2:38 and water baptized are added to the church.
 
Which is why the Church was contained in paradise, in the heart of the earth, until Christ descended and was revealed to them in Abraham’s Bosom.



JLB
Christ did not shed His blood until He died on the cross. And since the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin of those under the OT, they needed the blood of Christ to take away their sin and redeem them from their sins. Christ's death and shed blood was needed "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament" Heb 9:15. Therefore the OT law did not provide those under it a way to have their sins taken away, so their forgiveness was in promises waiting on the day to come Christ was shed His blood redeeming them from sin.
 
Just the Apostles in Acts 2 we baptized with the HS and spoke with tongues. So the Apostles and others who obeyed Acts 2:38 and we water baptized we added to the church. And those today who obey Acts 2:38 and water baptized are added to the church.


Most everyone in the early Church was baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.


We know that there were 120 disciples with the apostles and women including Mary the mother of Jesus.
Acts 1:12-2:4

At least 200

Then Peter speaking by the Spirit promised the crowd they would receive the Holy Spirit, if they would repent.

That was 3000

Acts 2:38-47


We know the Church in Samaria also when Peter and John went down and laid hands of them. Acts 8:14-17


No telling how many there.


We know the house of Cornelius did also.

Acts 10:44-48


We know Paul was baptized with the Spirit and spoke in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:18


The Church at Corinth


The twelve disciples of John.

Acts 19:1-6


I cant imagine why all the churches that Paul and John raised up or were nvolved in, wouldn’t have received the Holy Spirit with the evidence Peter referred to.







JLB
 
Christ did not shed His blood until He died on the cross. And since the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin of those under the OT, they needed the blood of Christ to take away their sin and redeem them from their sins. Christ's death and shed blood was needed "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament" Heb 9:15. Therefore the OT law did not provide those under it a way to have their sins taken away, so their forgiveness was in promises waiting on the day to come Christ was shed His blood redeeming them from sin.


Which is why the Church was contained in paradise, in the heart of the earth, until Christ descended and was revealed to them in Abraham’s Bosom.



JLB
 
HOW does the Spirit baptize men? Does the Spirit baptize men personally Himself? No. If He does then why then did the Spirit not spirit baptize the eunuch instead of sending for Phillip to water baptize the eunuch? Because water baptism is means by which God saves not any kind of "spirit baptism".

Man baptizes with water. Acts 1:4-5

The Spirit baptizes us into Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 Born again

Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. Acts 1:4-5


Three different baptisms with three different baptizers.


This was foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2


  • all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.


Into Moses = Into Christ

In the cloud = Baptized with the Spirit

In the sea = Baptized in water.
 
No actually it indicates a continuing of what was started;
to restore what was previously started.

To build from a foundation
JLB
Restore?
We are not thinking along the same lines.
If Jesus says He will do something, it is apparent it will eventually happen...not happen again.
 
1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism, as Paul himself water baptized some of the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16.

The Holy Spirit does not baptize men Himself but baptizes by giving His authority to disciples to water baptize men.

Jn 4:1-2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)" The passage says 'Jesus baptized' but then says 'Jesus baptized not'. This is not a contradiction in that Jesus did not personally baptize men but baptized by giving His authority to disciples to baptize by His authority.

Likewise the Spirit does not baptize men personally but baptizes by giving disciples His authority to water baptize. In the great commission (Mt 28:19-20) disciples are to baptize 'in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost". The phrase "in the name of" means by the authority of therefore when disciples water baptize others they are baptizing by the authority of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and it is in this sense Jesus and the Holy Spirit baptize men.

Note in Acts 8 the Spirit did not personally baptize the eunuch but sent for Phillip to come and teach and water baptize the eunuch. Phillip water baptized the eunuch with the baptism of Christ's great commission which was in the name of (by authority of) Father, Son the Holy Ghost and in this sense men are baptized by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

In Jn 3:5 being born again (v3) consists of being born of water and of the Spirit. One birth consisting of 2 elements; water and Spirit. The role of water in the new birth is water baptism. The role of the Spirit is the Spirit's word, the Bible, that teaches men how to be saved by being baptized (Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; Acts 8:12; etc). Therefore the Spirit accomplished 1 Cor 12:13 by His inspired revealed word not in any miraculous sense separate and apart from the word and man's obedience to the word in submitting to water baptism.

In the broader context of 1 Cor 12, the Corinthians had division among themselves over spiritual gifts given them by the Holy Spirit. So why baptized by one Spirit instead of baptized in water? Because it was "Paul's purpose in his call for unity to stress the agent....of their immersion rather than the element (water). The same Spirit, the one Spirit, who gave them their gifts was the one who led them to submit to one baptism.." (McGuiggan)"
You are stuck on the "one baptism" scripture, without realizing there is "one baptism" done by men and "one baptism" done by God.
You are trying to merge the two into one.
 
I understand there was forgiveness under the OT law. My point has been that the forgiveness under the OT law was in promise looking toward the day Christ died and shed His blood, then the sins of those who lived under the OT law were forgiven in reality.
They were "shadows", but still effective in their time.
 
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