When did the Church begin?

[Randy]

I don't agree.
If it wasn't Father Himself who appeared to Abram it was the Word.
There was no Jesus till there was a Jesus born of a virgin.

You mean there was no Jesus as the "Son of Man" before He came into the world right?

The Jesus who was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.

"Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

Jesus is a being. Though He is called the word of life by John. The one with the Father from the beginning. The life appeared whom they have testified to as in seen, touched and heard.

I am not sure what that has to do with the beginning of the church or when the church began.

Clearly there were disciples who believed in Jesus before His resurrection. However the church, as we have today, incorporates from the beginning the Crucifixion and resurrection in the beliefs and testimony as we read in the NT. Therefore I would have to concede that the church, as we have today, started after the resurrection of Jesus who commanded them at that time to make disciples of all nations baptizing them into the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

I am not sure what that has to do with the beginning of the church or when the church began.

When we recognize Who it was that made covenant with Abraham, it makes all the difference in the world, in understanding when the Ecclesia, the Church, the Holy nation began.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

This the Lord who became flesh, who confirmed His part of the blood letting of the Covenant, when He became flesh.

Abraham’s part was circumcision.


This covenant is the founding covenant that we are grated into, in Christ. This Covenant became the New (restored, refreshed) covenant by which we now have the blessing of Abraham upon our lives, in Christ. We have been made part of the commonwealth of Israel in Christ. We have been grafted into this Covenant that the Lord made with Abraham, which became the New Covenant.

Not some brand new different covenant, but the renewed covenant.

Get Seasoned by Grace to show you the difference in the Greek words neos and kainos.




JLB

 

[Randy]

When we recognize Who it was that made covenant with Abraham, it makes all the difference in the world, in understanding when the Ecclesia, the Church, the Holy nation began.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2

This the Lord who became flesh, who confirmed His part of the blood letting of the Covenant, when He became flesh.

Abraham’s part was circumcision.


This covenant is the founding covenant that we are grated into, in Christ. This Covenant became the New (restored, refreshed) covenant by which we now have the blessing of Abraham upon our lives, in Christ. We have been made part of the commonwealth of Israel in Christ. We have been grafted into this Covenant that the Lord made with Abraham, which became the New Covenant.

Not some brand new different covenant, but the renewed covenant.

Get Seasoned by Grace to show you the difference in the Greek words neos and kainos.




JLB

In speaking of something "new" Jesus introduced a covenant in His blood.
In speaking of those who "God" calls His children. It is those who are born of God. In that Gods promise is fulfilled to Abraham, and David as Jesus was appointed to the line of David by the Fathers own authority.

But even before Jesus God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous in Israel. As is written, "the soul who sins will die". No one has been saved by heritage alone.

As I stated the church as we have today. I would place after the resurrection of Jesus pointing out the great commission of the head of the body of Christ.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

This covenant is the founding covenant that we are grated into, in Christ. This Covenant became the New (restored, refreshed) covenant by which we now have the blessing of Abraham upon our lives, in Christ. We have been made part of the commonwealth of Israel in Christ. We have been grafted into this Covenant that the Lord made with Abraham, which became the New Covenant.

JLB
Your the first person I've heard mention what I call the "Olive tree Typology" or covenant in Romans 11:11-24, where through this process we become one with the Spiritual Israel as God had planned from before creation.

You should go on and explain how the whole story goes, including Jesus being the "Root of Jessy." Use verses so people can follow along.

My name is OLIGOS

 

[JLB]

As I stated the church as we have today. I would place after the resurrection of Jesus pointing out the great commission of the head of the body of Christ.

... as we have today is something added.


From God’s perspective we see a Holy nation, a royal priesthood, a covenant people that belong to Him.


This began with Abraham.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9




JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB
Your the first person I've heard mention what I call the "Olive tree Typology" or covenant in Romans 11:11-24, where through this process we become one with the Spiritual Israel as God had planned from before creation.

Are you saying you agree or disagree, that we who are in Christ, are grafted into the natural olive tree?

• The root that supports the olive tree is the Lord, and the covenant He made with Abraham.

This is how the blessing of Abraham comes upon the Gentiles in Christ.


Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

• that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Blessing = eternal life (the Spirit of Christ), protection from enemies, physical health, as well being prosperous, having enough and some let over to be a blessing, (which has been exploited by greedy preachers).





JLB

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Are you saying you agree or disagree, that we who are in Christ, are grafted into the natural olive tree?

• The root that supports the olive tree is the Lord, and the covenant He made with Abraham.

I TOTALLY AGREE!!

And the "Root" you mention is "Formally" known as the "Root of Jesse", also known as Christ,

See, we can agree on some things .
My name is OLIGOS

 

[JLB]

I TOTALLY AGREE!!

And the "Root" you mention is "Formally" known as the "Root of Jesse", also known as Christ,

See, we can agree on some things .
My name is OLIGOS

Jesse being a reference to David’s father. However, as you said the Root is referring to Christ, but Isaiah seems to be referring to the time after the Second coming.

Anyway, that’s another study.

Thanks for your comments.

I hope all is well with you and your family.



JLB

 

[Randy]

... as we have today is something added.


From God’s perspective we see a Holy nation, a royal priesthood, a covenant people that belong to Him.


This began with Abraham.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9




JLB

Interesting perspective.
I suppose in some sense one could view the church as ALL OT and NT saints.

I keep this in mind in regard to the Lords church when one asks about the "church". And such a church started with the living.

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

But the feast is larger as you note.
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[JLB]

Interesting perspective.
I suppose in some sense one could view the church as ALL OT and NT saints.

Thank you Randy.

That‘s been my point. Whether you agree with everything I’m saying or not, this is a point we can both agree on.

But the feast is larger as you note.
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Excellent point!


I think the main thing I want people to see is, Abraham walked in covenant relationship with the same Lord we do today.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


Walk before Me...
Walk in My Presence...
Walk with Me...
Walk in the light as He is in the light...
Walk in the Spirit...


This is the heartcry of the Lord. This is what His covenant people are called to do.


This is how Abraham walked in obedience with God.


because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5



walk before Me and be blameless. = Abraham obeyed My voice



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Not a single verse says such. Again there is ONE BAPTISM in effect today (Eph 4:4-5) that one being the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission that saves, that is commanded, that is for all nations/creature, that is to be taught, that lasts till the end of time, Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16. Baptism with the Holy Spirit has not been commanded to anyone only promised to the Apostles (Acts 1:1-5) baptism with the HS does not save, it is not for every creature/nature, does not last till the end of time.

1 Corinthians 12:13

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

where does it say apostles and just how do you come to this conclusion?

 

[Hopeful]

Everyone?
That’s interesting.

Some have had their names removed.
It is written..."He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev 3:5)

 

[Hopeful]

God the Father appeared to one.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 1:18

Jesus is the Son of God; The only begotten of the Father.

He appeared to many in the Old Testament.

• He appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

• He appeared to Moses at the burning bush, and spoke face to face with Him.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:1-6

• He spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1

• He created the heavens and the earth.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• He became flesh and died for our sins.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

• Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God; The Lord of the Old Testament. He is coming soon to Judge the living and the dead, and to take His throne in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth.

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:4-5
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

Then the Lord is the Word.

 

[Hopeful]

You mean there was no Jesus as the "Son of Man" before He came into the world right?

Correct.

The Jesus who was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.
"Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"
Jesus is a being. Though He is called the word of life by John. The one with the Father from the beginning. The life appeared whom they have testified to as in seen, touched and heard.

Actually He was called the "Word".
Not "word".

I am not sure what that has to do with the beginning of the church or when the church began.
Clearly there were disciples who believed in Jesus before His resurrection. However the church, as we have today, incorporates from the beginning the Crucifixion and resurrection in the beliefs and testimony as we read in the NT. Therefore I would have to concede that the church, as we have today, started after the resurrection of Jesus who commanded them at that time to make disciples of all nations baptizing them into the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

I posted that before one could be water baptized into Christ and into His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection, that there was no church, as the church is the "body of Christ".
No "body", no church.

 

[Hopeful]

Interesting perspective.
I suppose in some sense one could view the church as ALL OT and NT saints.

I keep this in mind in regard to the Lords church when one asks about the "church". And such a church started with the living.

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

But the feast is larger as you note.
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Does "will" build my church indicate a future time to you as it does to me?

 

[JLB]

Then the Lord is the Word.

His name is Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Does "will" build my church indicate a future time to you as it does to me?

No actually it indicates a continuing of what was started;
to restore what was previously started.

To build from a foundation.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

1 Corinthians 12:13

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

where does it say apostles and just how do you come to this conclusion?

1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism, as Paul himself water baptized some of the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16.

The Holy Spirit does not baptize men Himself but baptizes by giving His authority to disciples to water baptize men.

Jn 4:1-2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)" The passage says 'Jesus baptized' but then says 'Jesus baptized not'. This is not a contradiction in that Jesus did not personally baptize men but baptized by giving His authority to disciples to baptize by His authority.

Likewise the Spirit does not baptize men personally but baptizes by giving disciples His authority to water baptize. In the great commission (Mt 28:19-20) disciples are to baptize 'in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost". The phrase "in the name of" means by the authority of therefore when disciples water baptize others they are baptizing by the authority of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and it is in this sense Jesus and the Holy Spirit baptize men.

Note in Acts 8 the Spirit did not personally baptize the eunuch but sent for Phillip to come and teach and water baptize the eunuch. Phillip water baptized the eunuch with the baptism of Christ's great commission which was in the name of (by authority of) Father, Son the Holy Ghost and in this sense men are baptized by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

In Jn 3:5 being born again (v3) consists of being born of water and of the Spirit. One birth consisting of 2 elements; water and Spirit. The role of water in the new birth is water baptism. The role of the Spirit is the Spirit's word, the Bible, that teaches men how to be saved by being baptized (Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; Acts 8:12; etc). Therefore the Spirit accomplished 1 Cor 12:13 by His inspired revealed word not in any miraculous sense separate and apart from the word and man's obedience to the word in submitting to water baptism.

In the broader context of 1 Cor 12, the Corinthians had division among themselves over spiritual gifts given them by the Holy Spirit. So why baptized by one Spirit instead of baptized in water? Because it was "Paul's purpose in his call for unity to stress the agent....of their immersion rather than the element (water). The same Spirit, the one Spirit, who gave them their gifts was the one who led them to submit to one baptism.." (McGuiggan)"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

just how do you think we placed into the Body of Christ

Rom 6:3 baptized into Christ. The one baptism of Eph 4:4-5 is Christ's human administered water baptism of the great commission that lasts till the end of time.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I only pointed out that Jesus had authority to forgive sins at His will. That is to give "life".
It appears that those He forgave believed in Him. They were made clean by the word He spoke to them.

In addition lets point out that "Jesus" is the judge.

I understand there was forgiveness under the OT law. My point has been that the forgiveness under the OT law was in promise looking toward the day Christ died and shed His blood, then the sins of those who lived under the OT law were forgiven in reality.