By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[GodsGrace]

'No one comes to the Father except through me' unless you are one of 50 million people living in China in 50 A.D. ... they can come to God without coming to God the Son. (this is the consequence of your theology as I see it, that God contradicts himself in John 14:6)

Premise 1: No one comes to the Father except through me [Christ]
Premise 2: 50 million people in China in 50 A.D. never heard of Christ
Conclusion1: 50 million people in China in 50 A.D. are in hell

using your premise of people seeking God will find him we can conclude
Premise 1: People who seek God will be saved
Premise 2: 50 million people in China in 50 A.D. are in hell per conclusion 1
Conclusion 2: No one seeks God

It would be nice if you used the bible instead of deductive reasoning.
It gets really useless after a time and why should we believe your conclusions?

You'd get more respect if you used scripture.

And since we're in THEOLOGY, you really are supposed to use scripture to back up your statements.

 

[for_his_glory]

'No one comes to the Father except through me' unless you are a 1282 N. A. indian ... they can come to God without coming to God.

Please show me the scripture where Jesus only died for a certain group of people?

What does 1282 N. A. Indian have to do with the conversation and how does one come to God without coming to God as that makes no sense.

You theology is teaching limited atonement which is not Biblical.

 

[for_his_glory]

carm.org/Did Jesus die for everyone? My Calvinist friends say no.
by Matt Slick

This is a common question regarding Reformed Theology and is known as limited atonement. Reformed theology, also known as Calvinism, teaches that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect and that He did not die for the sins of everyone who ever lived. This teaching is held by the Reformed and Presbyterian Churches as well as some Baptist ones. It is controversial in that there is debate regarding its validity from scripture. Nevertheless, we must understand that believing or not believing in limited atonement has no bearing on whether or not someone is a Christian or not. The issue is denominational; that is, it is a perspective held by some Christian churches but not others.

Nevertheless, is limited atonement biblical? The reader will have to decide. To help in making that decision, the following arguments for and against it are offered.

For Limited Atonement
If Jesus actually died for the sins of everyone who ever lived, then why does anyone go to hell? This argument holds that if Jesus actually did pay for everyone's sins, including unbelief, then no one should go to hell. The counter argument is that people must believe to be saved. The answer to this is that even disbelief is a sin that has been paid for; therefore, no one should go to hell. But, since people do go to hell, it is logical to believe that Jesus only bore the sins of the Christians. The Reformed theologians would say that though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not intended for all.

Scriptures used to support limited atonement are as follows as Jesus died for 'many.'
Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);
John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
Matt. 25:32-33, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."
Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"
The Church was purchased by Christ, not all people.
Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
Eph. 5:25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless."
Prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Isaiah 53:12, "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."

Against Limited Atonement
The Bible says that Jesus died for all; therefore, Jesus died for all. God so loved the world, not just the Christian, that He died for everyone and it is up to the person to accept or reject Jesus. If he rejects Jesus, then the atonement is not applied to the person and he will go to hell. But, Jesus' sacrifice was not only sufficient for all, but intended for all.

Scriptures used to support an unlimited atonement are as follows as Jesus died for everyone:

John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

Conclusion
There are points and counter-points related to this topic. Brilliant theologians reside on both sides of the issue. But, whether or not you believe in limited atonement, you must understand that those who do and those who don't are still Christians (provided they acknowledge and trust in the true God and Christ). We need to be tolerant of those with whom we disagree on doctrines that do not affect our salvation. So, whichever side you fall on as a Christian, be gracious to those who don't believe as you do. Remember, we have far more in common in Christ, than we have differences.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No contradiction at all.
Those who really seek after God, Jesus will deliver.

Agreed. But you assume some seek God which contradicts Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” So, since no one seeks God, there is no one to be delivered by what they had done so that God gets all the glory. Aside: To seek God independent of God is dualism and contradicts Hebrews 1:3.

I'll use those from Macedonia as my example. (Acts 16:9-)

Again, you make assumptions when the verse does not state the cause of Macedonian to seek God. You assume the Macedonian seeked God independent of God (dualism-another power uncreated by God yet John 1:3 says God created all things). I say God caused the Macedonian to seek God. The verse does not give the CAUSE (God or the Macedonian).
Example: The nail hit the nail causing the nail to penetrate the wood. Was the hail the first/original cause of the nail going into the wood .... or did some other cause make the hammer hit the nail. We DON'T KNOW from the statement. There are plenty of verses telling one the cause of people seeking God is God. (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, John 6:29, Acts 18:27, Rom. 12:3, 1 Cor. 2:4-5 ... like I could go on and on and on .... hopefully, when you get to heaven God won't be too 'ticked off' for you claiming credit for what He has done IMO. On, the other hand ... maybe God will be so proud of you for your faith which you achieved independent of Him by some dualistic power found in the ether.

The Macedonians wanted help, and a vision was given to Paul in order to make it happen.
Who can say that never happened for the Chinese man or the native American?

Heck, who can say that when we die we don't go into some "TEST ZONE" where one of God's ambassadors explains the gospel and give those who have not heard the Gospel a test and if you pass you go to heaven. Who's to say Alice In Wonderful is not a true story. Please, stick with scripture or logic/rationalism to make points. No fantasies that fit your view of God and what he does unless Scripture backs it up. Aside: I don't think I create fantasies to make my points.

We don't know that nobody heard of Jesus. That is only your POV, not mine.

Look at it rationally, there is not other conclusion to come to.
Satirical Comment: How many missionaries went to areas with the gospel for the first time and reported back .... "the isolated natives, when I went to tell them of Christ told me the Jesus had just visited us last year and we heard the gospel from Him". Maybe the natives can even add to scriptures from Christ's visits. PLEASE .... this is non nonsensical conjecture outside of reality.

When Christ died God's angels went to 400 million people alive at the time and told everyone the gospel and to pass it on to their descendants. There, another scenario to add to your quiver of possible salvation explanations.

Do you think that nobody seeks God?

That's what the Bible clearly states so I believe it. Romans 3:11-12 I don't believe in dualism (a power other than God's). If people come to God it must be caused by God. I could list 100s of verses and reasons.

Do you think that nobody seeks God?
As our own country could probably now challenge China for Godlessness, I found Jesus and God...so am an illustration that it can happen in the most evil of circumstances.

I am convinced you are one of God's children.
We agree that salvation can come in the most evil circumstances. I say because of the power of God and you say because of the power of God and yourself.

All praise and glory to the Creator, forever.

This contradicts your belief system
Premise 1: You believe people seek God INDEPENDENT of God
Premise 2: Seeking God is worthy of praise (after all, you say you are saved by this seeking action)
Conclusion: ALL praise does not go to God, you share in the Glory of God for you synergistic efforts were needed for your adoption as one of God's children. Isaiah 42:8 is false.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please show me the scripture where Jesus only died for a certain group of people?

This is my short list that only deals with Elect, chosen, appoint, predestination
I can give many other lists.

• Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to dwell in Your courts. We will be filled with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written
  The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].

• Amos 3:2 You only (Israel) have I known [equivalent to salvation – see definitions] of all the families of the earth.
• Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
• Matthew 13:11 And He replied to them, to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
• Matthew 15:13 He answered, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant [non-elect] will be torn up by the roots.
• Matthew 20:1-16 … 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. This is in regards to the choosing of the elect to enter the kingdom of heaven
• Matthew 22:14 For many are called (invited, summoned), but few are chosen.”
• Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
• Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.
• Luke 10:20 Your names are written in heaven 21 In that same hour He rejoiced and gloried in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have concealed these things [relating to salvation] from the wise and understanding and learned, and revealed them to babes (the childish, unskilled, and untaught). Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will and choice and good pleasure.
• Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. do the sheep (men) chose the shepherd (Christ)?
• John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. [the action is the Father giving to the Son; believers are not involved in the transaction save their coming is the result of the Father’s action][Counter argument: Perhaps the reason for the father’s gift is the choice of men. Salvation is dependent upon giving; one does not give because one foresees faith]

• John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
• John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him. 65 And he said, “This [referring to “some of you fail to believe in verse 64] is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] him by the Father.”
• John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” Matthew 13:14-15; Isaiah 6:9-10 – God hardens and blinds some men so they cannot understand

• Seven times Jesus speaks of believers as given to Him by the Father. John 17:2; 6 twice; 9, 11, 12, 24

• John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. … and by extension, all Christians

• John 15:19b but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
• John 17:2; 6, 11, 12, 24 Seven times Jesus speaks of believers as given to Him by the Father.

• John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [Counter argument: Perhaps the reason for the father’s gift is the choice of men]
• Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is a [deliberately] chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; The conversion of Paul was of God and not from his acknowledgement and belief of those he persecuted.
• Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
• Acts 18:27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.
• Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
• 
  
• Romans 9:11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them] [effectual call]
• Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.

• Roman 10:20b “I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.”

• Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men) 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness). 6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless]. 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).Thus the idea of inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, is rigidly excluded.

• Romans 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord;
• Who does God elect and why: 1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called [effectual call]. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please show me the scripture where Jesus only died for a certain group of people?

Part 2:

• Galatian 1:15 But when God, who had chosen me and set me apart before I was born, and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me
• Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor, which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved [His Son, Jesus Christ].
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.}
• Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
• Philippians 1:29-30 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.
• Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
• Colossians 3:12b Put on then, as God's chosen ones
• 1 Thessalonians 1:4 [O] brethren beloved by God, we recognize and know that He has selected (chosen) you; 5 For our [preaching of the] glad tidings (the Gospel) came to you not only in word, but also in [its own inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction and absolute certainty [on our part]. [Without this accompanying work of the Spirit the preaching would be in vain, but with it men believe the truth proclaimed.]
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to [incur His] wrath [He did not select us to condemn us], but [that we might] obtain [His] salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
• 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [speaking of individuals and not the Church as a whole] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit [new birth] and faith in the truth. The order of thought here is most important and instructive. First, God's eternal choice; second, the sanctification of the Spirit; third, belief of the truth. The same order is seen in 1 Peter 1:2 where obedience is obedience of faith
• 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen],
• 2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],
• 
  
• James 2:5 "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith."
• 
  
• 1 Peter 1:1 To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
• 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God’s] own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
• 2 Peter 1:10 Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling [effectual call] and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.
• 
  
• 2 John 1:1 The elderly elder [of the church addresses this letter] to the elect (chosen) lady (Cyria) and her children
• Titus 1:1b for the faith of God’s chosen ones [election is not the consequence of faith, but faith is the consequence of election
• 
  
• Revelation 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. [those who do not give in to persecution and begin to worship the beast are persons whose names have been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world]
• Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written [not chosen by God] in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (Hebrews 12:23; Luke 10:20)
• Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them; for He is Lord of lords and King of kings—and those with Him and on His side are chosen and called [elected] and loyal and faithful followers.
• If salvation includes the cooperation (free will) of man … if each individual can freely decide; then why is salvation not evenly distributed amongst all nations, races, intelligences, etc. Rather, we see that salvation was almost exclusively to the Jew from Abraham to the cross, to the lowly (1 Corinthians 1:26b-27), of the western world.

I could do a MANY lot more. I try not to depend on implicit verses use ambiguous words like ALL and WORLD.
God chooses us. To say we choice God makes God dependent on man. It is to enable man to control God as to whom will be His children. To make God a robot in the area of salvation as we determine what God must do.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What does 1282 N. A. Indian have to do with the conversation and how does one come to God without coming to God as that makes no sense.

I can't answer this as it lacks context. I.E. I don't know what I said that inspired you to make this statement.
You preach the existence of another gospel whereby people who have never heard of Christ can be saved. Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing
Premise 2: Faith is required to be saved
Premise 3: No one come to the Father but by me (Christ)
Premise 4: There is no other gospel by which men may be saved (Gal. 1:8)
Conclusion: The 1282 North American Indian is in hell, Christ did not die for everyone without exception
Caveat : Unless you believe something likes the Mormons ... that Christ did visit North America ... If Christ died for everyone without exception then He or Angels or someone must have visited the entire planet with 400 million people in 50 A.D. and preached the gospel and then some other power ensured billions of people after that heard the gospel. But wait, there's more ... in all recorded history there is NO record of this of indication of societies knowing Christ by this method. This is a ridiculous fantasy. This is note quantum mechanics .... simple logic to follow and the only rational conclusion is that Christ did not die for everyone without exception.

You theology is teaching limited atonement which is not Biblical.

Your opinion lacks foundation. Thus, no response is necessary.

Interesting conversation. Thank you for your civility. I respect you as a sister. Your knowledge is superior to the vast majority Christians. Thank you for testing my theological thoughts. We know we won't change one another minds. Have a good one.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't answer this as it lacks context. I.E. I don't know what I said that inspired you to make this statement.
You preach the existence of another gospel whereby people who have never heard of Christ can be saved. Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing
Premise 2: Faith is required to be saved
Premise 3: No one come to the Father but by me (Christ)
Premise 4: There is no other gospel by which men may be saved (Gal. 1:8)
Conclusion: The 1282 North American Indian is in hell, Christ did not die for everyone without exception
Caveat : Unless you believe something likes the Mormons ... that Christ did visit North America ... If Christ died for everyone without exception then He or Angels or someone must have visited the entire planet with 400 million people in 50 A.D. and preached the gospel and then some other power ensured billions of people after that heard the gospel. But wait, there's more ... in all recorded history there is NO record of this of indication of societies knowing Christ by this method. This is a ridiculous fantasy. This is note quantum mechanics .... simple logic to follow and the only rational conclusion is that Christ did not die for everyone without exception.



Your opinion lacks foundation. Thus, no response is necessary.

Interesting conversation. Thank you for your civility. I respect you as a sister. Your knowledge is superior to the vast majority Christians. Thank you for testing my theological thoughts. We know we won't change one another minds. Have a good one.

Since no one will be changing your mind and you espouse teachings which are not biblical, I have basically stopped speaking to you.

Your misunderstanding of scripture colors all your ideas.

God will not be upset at anyone for following His commandments, which we are required to do, and which you call "helping God" along.

However, He will be upset at those that misrepresent His character. Those that teach He is a being that created the human race to be played with and tortured instead of a Loving God as scripture represents Him.

If I were on a calvinist site, doing what you are doing here, i would have been banned a long time ago.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please show me the scripture where Jesus only died for a certain group of people?

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism is false. V.C.
The perverse idea that God chooses to do what we chose to do puts the Almighty under the control of men.

Premise 1: God chose whom he would save (Post #146 and and #147 for 50+ verses)
Premise 2: The Arminian claim that God chose those the chose him is meaningless (quote above)
Conclusion: Since God chose whom to save we, by simple deduction, can conclude there in NO REASON to die for those not chosen.

Premise 1: God is a holy in whom there is not sin.
Premise 2: To sacrifice His Christ for evil people is unholy. To reward evil is unholy.
Premise 3: Isaiah 46:10 I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’
Conclusion: Christ did not die for everyone without exception.
COnclusion 2: Christ did not die in vain because He accomplished His purposes. To die for evil people who belong to Satan (sons of Satan) serve no purpose. God always knew the 'goats' would reject him.

One denies the FREEDOM of God to if one suggests we chose God independent of God being the cause.
One denies God's sovereignty over all things without exception if one suggests we chose God independent of God being the cause.
One denies God's independence if one suggests we chose God independent of God being the cause.
One denies God's shares His glory with no one if one suggests we chose God independent of God being the cause.
One denies salvation by grace alone if one suggests we chose God independent of God being the cause.
One can boast in himself if one suggests we chose God independent of God being the cause.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism is false. V.C.
The perverse idea that God chooses to do what we chose to do puts the Almighty under the control of men.

Premise 1: God chose whom he would save (Post #146 and and #147 for 50+ verses)
Premise 2: The Arminian claim that God chose those the chose him is meaningless (quote above)
Conclusion: Since God chose whom to save we, by simple deduction, can conclude there in NO REASON to die for those not chosen.

Premise 1: God is a holy in whom there is not sin.
Premise 2: To sacrifice His Christ for evil people is unholy. To reward evil is unholy.
Premise 3: Isaiah 46:10 I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’
Conclusion: Christ did not die for everyone without exception.
COnclusion 2: Christ did not die in vain because He accomplished His purposes. To die for evil people who belong to Satan (sons of Satan) serve no purpose. God always knew the 'goats' would reject him.

God does not choose who will be saved,
But how we can be saved...
In Him
In Jesus
Through faith

Stating any other method of salvation is heretical .

As to limited atonement...
Even some calvinists cannot accept the idea that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to buy back humanity from satan.

Adam sold humanity to satan.
Jesus bought it back.

 

[Hopeful]

Agreed. But you assume some seek God which contradicts Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” So, since no one seeks God, there is no one to be delivered by what they had done so that God gets all the glory. Aside: To seek God independent of God is dualism and contradicts Hebrews 1:3.

Please remember that Paul is quoting OT scripture in Rom 3.
It need not apply anymore.

Again, you make assumptions when the verse does not state the cause of Macedonian to seek God. You assume the Macedonian seeked God independent of God (dualism-another power uncreated by God yet John 1:3 says God created all things). I say God caused the Macedonian to seek God. The verse does not give the CAUSE (God or the Macedonian).
Example: The nail hit the nail causing the nail to penetrate the wood. Was the hail the first/original cause of the nail going into the wood .... or did some other cause make the hammer hit the nail. We DON'T KNOW from the statement. There are plenty of verses telling one the cause of people seeking God is God. (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, John 6:29, Acts 18:27, Rom. 12:3, 1 Cor. 2:4-5 ... like I could go on and on and on .... hopefully, when you get to heaven God won't be too 'ticked off' for you claiming credit for what He has done IMO. On, the other hand ... maybe God will be so proud of you for your faith which you achieved independent of Him by some dualistic power found in the ether.

It really doesn't matter to me, but you use the example to further your own agenda.
What is the purpose of your POV?
That nobody can love God without God's direct intervention on their part?
God is the light we are drawn to.
The Light is out there for all men, but only some come to it.

Heck, who can say that when we die we don't go into some "TEST ZONE" where one of God's ambassadors explains the gospel and give those who have not heard the Gospel a test and if you pass you go to heaven. Who's to say Alice In Wonderful is not a true story. Please, stick with scripture or logic/rationalism to make points. No fantasies that fit your view of God and what he does unless Scripture backs it up. Aside: I don't think I create fantasies to make my points.



Look at it rationally, there is not other conclusion to come to.
Satirical Comment: How many missionaries went to areas with the gospel for the first time and reported back .... "the isolated natives, when I went to tell them of Christ told me the Jesus had just visited us last year and we heard the gospel from Him". Maybe the natives can even add to scriptures from Christ's visits. PLEASE .... this is non nonsensical conjecture outside of reality.

When Christ died God's angels went to 400 million people alive at the time and told everyone the gospel and to pass it on to their descendants. There, another scenario to add to your quiver of possible salvation explanations.




That's what the Bible clearly states so I believe it. Romans 3:11-12 I don't believe in dualism (a power other than God's). If people come to God it must be caused by God. I could list 100s of verses and reasons.



I am convinced you are one of God's children.
We agree that salvation can come in the most evil circumstances. I say because of the power of God and you say because of the power of God and yourself.


This contradicts your belief system
Premise 1: You believe people seek God INDEPENDENT of God
Premise 2: Seeking God is worthy of praise (after all, you say you are saved by this seeking action)
Conclusion: ALL praise does not go to God, you share in the Glory of God for you synergistic efforts were needed for your adoption as one of God's children. Isaiah 42:8 is false.

 

[brightfame52]

This is from a Gospel writer name Brandon:

For His Great Love Wherewith He Loved Us - Brandan Kraft​

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. " - Ephesians 2:3 It has been said our position regarding God's love of His people is...

www.pristinegrace.org

 

[Fastfredy0]

That nobody can love God without God's direct intervention on their part?

Yes ... what other power exists other than Gods? Tell of this other power .. who, what is it. Is it eternal or did someone/something create this power and if so who created this power that controls us if it was not God?
Heb. 1:3; John 1:3; Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28

God is the light we are drawn to.
The Light is out there for all men, but only some come to it.

There is no light (salvation) for the 1282 N.A. Indian. Show me in scripture how this Indian (just 1 example among billions who have never heard of Christ) is saved. You claim everyone without exception can be saved ... tell me how without preaching another gospel Gal. 1:8 , John 14:6

Interesting discussion. Thinks for expressing you ideas clearly ... well the moth and flame wasn't the clearest... *giggle*

 

[Hopeful]

Yes ... what other power exists other than Gods? Tell of this other power .. who, what is it. Is it eternal or did someone/something create this power and if so who created this power that controls us if it was not God?
Heb. 1:3; John 1:3; Col. 1:17; Acts 17:28

You sort of mix an idea of God attracting folks (by His goodness and promises), and God picking and choosing who He will cause to accept Him.
Do we choose to like bacon because of something bacon does?
Or do we choose bacon because of what it is?

There is no light (salvation) for the 1282 N.A. Indian. Show me in scripture how this Indian (just 1 example among billions who have never heard of Christ) is saved. You claim everyone without exception can be saved ... tell me how without preaching another gospel Gal. 1:8 , John 14:6

I serve a just God who will not ignore those who seek Him.
The Ephesians sought Him and were granted the way of salvation.
So did the Galatians, Thessalonians, Bereans, Macedonians, Samaritans, Romans, etc.
Why don't you include those with the 1282 AD native Americans you cite as unsalvable?

Interesting discussion. Thinks for expressing you ideas clearly ... well the moth and flame wasn't the clearest... *giggle*

The flame is God.
The moths are the folks of the world.
God doesn't only allow a certain amount of moths to get close to Him.
He wants all men to be saved

 

[Fastfredy0]

You sort of mix an idea of God attracting folks (by His goodness and promises),

I don't think God 'attracts' those that are not elect. None seek God. Rom. 3:11

and God picking and choosing who He will cause to accept Him.

Agreed. I know you are a dualist. I am still waiting for an answer to my questions. What other power than God causes people to do "X" or "Y". God created all things (John 1:3). All things that are created are controlled by the creator or some other eternal power you have yet to identify. Law of Causality ... every EFFECT has a CAUSE

Do we choose to like bacon because of something bacon does?
Or do we choose bacon because of what it is?

God caused you to like or not like bacon. He determine under what circumstances you would craze bacon and to what degree (Heb. 1:3). He created you and determined your comings and goings.

I serve a just God who will not ignore those who seek Him.

Me too. No one seeks God unless God causes them to seek. (you comments lack scripture)

The Ephesians sought Him and were granted the way of salvation.
So did the Galatians, Thessalonians, Bereans, Macedonians, Samaritans, Romans, etc.

Agreed, the cause of seeking God was God ...not some power of something you refuse to define (dualism) though you implicit acknowledge its existence.

Why don't you include those with the 1282 AD native Americans you cite as unsalvable?

I gave reasons. I reduced them to a syllogism for easy comprehension. You simply have to show a premise to be incorrect which you have not done.

YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS, YET I ANSWER YOUR QUERIES AND GIVE SCRIPTURE AND LOGIC AND SUBSTANTIATE MY PROPOSITIONS.

GIVE ME ANOTHER GOSPEL WHEREBY THE 1282 N.A. INDIAN CAN BE SAVED. THEN EXPLAIN HOW YOUR NEW GOSPEL DOES NOT CONTRADICT GAL. 1:8. GEE, IF YOU DON'T KNOW ANOTHER GOSPEL TO SAVE THE 1282 N.A. INDIAN GIVEN YOUR ACCESS TO SCRIPTURE, HOW IS THE INDIAN SUPPOSED TO COME UP WITH THE ANSWER?
IS YOUR 'NEW' GOSPEL MORE EFFECTIVE THAN PAUL'S GOSPEL? THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION. IF YOUR GOSPEL IS MORE EFFECTIVE, MAYBE WE SHOULD EVANGELIZE WITH YOUR 'NEW' GOSPEL THAT SAVED THE 1282 N.A. INDIAN ... OR MAYBE THE TWO GOSPELS WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE PREACHED SIMULTANEOUSLY THAN JUST ONE GOSPEL.

I would be entertain more questions after you answer some of mine.

Interesting conversation. Thanks for you patience.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can't answer this as it lacks context. I.E. I don't know what I said that inspired you to make this statement.
You preach the existence of another gospel whereby people who have never heard of Christ can be saved. Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing
Premise 2: Faith is required to be saved
Premise 3: No one come to the Father but by me (Christ)
Premise 4: There is no other gospel by which men may be saved (Gal. 1:8)
Conclusion: The 1282 North American Indian is in hell, Christ did not die for everyone without exception
Caveat : Unless you believe something likes the Mormons ... that Christ did visit North America ... If Christ died for everyone without exception then He or Angels or someone must have visited the entire planet with 400 million people in 50 A.D. and preached the gospel and then some other power ensured billions of people after that heard the gospel. But wait, there's more ... in all recorded history there is NO record of this of indication of societies knowing Christ by this method. This is a ridiculous fantasy. This is note quantum mechanics .... simple logic to follow and the only rational conclusion is that Christ did not die for everyone without exception.



Your opinion lacks foundation. Thus, no response is necessary.

Interesting conversation. Thank you for your civility. I respect you as a sister. Your knowledge is superior to the vast majority Christians. Thank you for testing my theological thoughts. We know we won't change one another minds. Have a good one.

You are right as we will never agree so it's time for me to move on as all we are doing is repeating ourselves. God bless you and yours.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You are right as we will never agree so it's time for me to move on as all we are doing is repeating ourselves. God bless you and yours.

...and I was hoping you would exegete my verses as I did you yours ... and it was only a 10-20% of my list of verses and these only dealt with God choosing. I have plenty more verses in categories of "God Will", "Faith caused by God", "Repentance caused by God", "the attributes of God affirming God's choosing us and not us choosing Him", "examples of conversions", "analogies", "the depravity of man", "God hardening/blinding men from salvation", "God's sovereignty", "works deny the possibility of synergistic salvation", simple logic, "empirical evidence" and more.
God does not contradict Himself; scripture must harmonize with scripture.

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism is false. Vincent Cheung

God has blessed you:
1) "Because He died for you" and "What you did (believed in Him)". Thus, you control God and caused Him to adopt you because of what you have done. God shares the glory of your salvation with you (oh praise "free will" / dualism) or
2) Because God chose you and caused you to believe in Him. God will crown His own works and shares His glory with no one. (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, Mat. 11:27, John 3:27, John 6:29, John 6:63; Romans 9:16; Phil 2:13; James 1:18; 1 John 4:19 (I don't think I used any implicit ALL or WORLD verses and only supply a partial list)

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think God 'attracts' those that are not elect. None seek God. Rom. 3:11

They are "elect" because they elect to serve God.
If they are attracted to God and to His promises, they elect to submit to Him.

Agreed. I know you are a dualist. I am still waiting for an answer to my questions. What other power than God causes people to do "X" or "Y". God created all things (John 1:3). All things that are created are controlled by the creator or some other eternal power you have yet to identify. Law of Causality ... every EFFECT has a CAUSE

People have their own volition.
All men have the choice of whether or not to serve a higher power.
As for any "other" power, I will remind you of the Word, and even He allows men their own choices.

God caused you to like or not like bacon. He determine under what circumstances you would craze bacon and to what degree (Heb. 1:3). He created you and determined your comings and goings.

I don't see anything like that in Heb 1:3.
Was that the correct verse you were thinking of?

Me too. No one seeks God unless God causes them to seek. (you comments lack scripture)

What you call "cause" I call "allows".
I wasn't citing scripture.

Agreed, the cause of seeking God was God ...not some power of something you refuse to define (dualism) though you implicit acknowledge its existence.

I don't claim some other power influenced me.
I claim that I realized the goodness of God, and the mercy He shows us on earth, and decided to adhere to His words.

I gave reasons. I reduced them to a syllogism for easy comprehension. You simply have to show a premise to be incorrect which you have not done.

YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS, YET I ANSWER YOUR QUERIES AND GIVE SCRIPTURE AND LOGIC AND SUBSTANTIATE MY PROPOSITIONS.
GIVE ME ANOTHER GOSPEL WHEREBY THE 1282 N.A. INDIAN CAN BE SAVED. THEN EXPLAIN HOW YOUR NEW GOSPEL DOES NOT CONTRADICT GAL. 1:8. GEE, IF YOU DON'T KNOW ANOTHER GOSPEL TO SAVE THE 1282 N.A. INDIAN GIVEN YOUR ACCESS TO SCRIPTURE, HOW IS THE INDIAN SUPPOSED TO COME UP WITH THE ANSWER?
IS YOUR 'NEW' GOSPEL MORE EFFECTIVE THAN PAUL'S GOSPEL? THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION. IF YOUR GOSPEL IS MORE EFFECTIVE, MAYBE WE SHOULD EVANGELIZE WITH YOUR 'NEW' GOSPEL THAT SAVED THE 1282 N.A. INDIAN ... OR MAYBE THE TWO GOSPELS WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE PREACHED SIMULTANEOUSLY THAN JUST ONE GOSPEL.

I already cited Rom. 2:14-15..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
It isn't a gospel, but the truth by the apostle Paul.
Now the number of folks who actually "do by nature the things contained in the Law" is debatable, it must be true.

I would be entertain more questions after you answer some of mine.
Interesting conversation. Thanks for you patience.

Did the Macedonians seek after God on their own, or did God force the Macedonians to seek Him?
Will God destroy those He didn't force to seek Him?
If He will destroy them, wouldn't that be cruel?
That isn't the sort of God who mercifully allowed me to find Him, in spite of all the barriers placed in front of me by the devil.
And I thank Him for it.

 

[Hopeful]

1) "Because He died for you" and "What you did (believed in Him)". Thus, you control God and caused Him to adopt you because of what you have done. God shares the glory of your salvation with you (oh praise "free will" / dualism) or
2) Because God chose you and caused you to believe in Him. God will crown His own works and shares His glory with no one. (John 1:12-13, Phil. 1:29, Mat. 11:27, John 3:27, John 6:29, John 6:63; Romans 9:16; Phil 2:13; James 1:18; 1 John 4:19 (I don't think I used any implicit ALL or WORLD verses and only supply a partial list)

Don't we "have to" believe in Him?
Don't we "have to " repent of sin?
Don't we "have to" get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
Don't we "have to " be reborn?
Don't we "have to" receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Don't we "have to" endure till the end?
I can hardly call that controlling God.
I will, however, call it submitting to God, or obeying God.
God gave us commands to obey, and the ways to make that happen.
If He is doing all the choosing, why do we "have to" comply with or obey anything?

 

[Fastfredy0]

They are "elect" because they elect to serve God.

I think you mean to say "because they believe God" (unless you are promoted works salvation). I will answer on that assumption.

Cool ... so you believe the ELECT control God. Specifically, God does what we tell him in regards to salvation. Apparently, the ALMIGHTY is dependent upon us for what He will do in some regards. God's freedom of choice is subservient to ours. Of course you will give me a verse to substantiate this.
It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism is false. Vincent Cheung
Seeing as you propose that God does not control our decision ... who created this power of choice? The Mormons believe our 'soul' is eternal and gets attached to our body. That would be a reasonable conjecture. What is your conjecture?

If they are attracted to God and to His promises, they elect to submit to Him.

Agreed. The cause of the attraction is God in IMO. You are a dualist and believe there is a power other than God's that is the cause of people being attracted to God. Give me a scripture that tells us of some power other than God that can create things from nothing ... who created your 'free will'? Whoever creates something out of nothing controls it; He is the 'first cause' and is uncaused.

People have their own volition.

The statement is unsubstantiated. See comments/my questions above.

All men have the choice of whether or not to serve a higher power.
As for any "other" power, I will remind you of the Word, and even He allows men their own choices.

Give me a verse that says God allows you to choose and where God does not control your choice? What is the eternal power that controls this choice?

I don't see anything like that in Heb 1:3.
Was that the correct verse you were thinking of?

Hebrews 1:3 says that God upholds the universe by his power, that nothing can occur except by the power of God. That's metaphysics. Contrary to Hebrews 1:3 you maintain there is another metaphysical power that also powers the universe so you imply you don't believe what Hebrews 1:3 says when it says "upholding and maintaining and propelling all things". You imply that you help God UPHOLD AND MAINTAIN CERTAIN THINGS via your power that came from a source you have yet to identify.
...upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins and established our freedom from guilt, He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority], AMP

I don't claim some other power influenced me.
I claim that I realized the goodness of God, and the mercy He shows us on earth, and decided to adhere to His words.

Every power has an original source. What is the original source that CAUSED you to believe. (By definition, the original source ... first cause ... must be eternal). Only something/someone that is eternal is UNCAUSED. Something caused you to believe ... you and you thinking are NOT self-created. From nothing, nothing comes. What is the something that caused you to believe?

It isn't a gospel, but the truth by the apostle Paul.

Agreed that Romans 2:14-15 is not the salvific gospel and thus irrelevant to my question. You said the 1282 N.A. Indian can be saved. I asked you for the gospel whereby the Indian who never heard of Christ is saved and then I asked by to explain why Paul in Gal. 1:8 says there is no other gospel, yet you propose there is another gospel. (Why don't you answer the question or just say YOU DON'T KNOW, IT'S A MYSTERY and some other feeble patch).

Did the Macedonians seek after God on their own, or did God force the Macedonians to seek Him?
Will God destroy those He didn't force to seek Him?
If He will destroy them, wouldn't that be cruel?
That isn't the sort of God who mercifully allowed me to find Him, in spite of all the barriers placed in front of me by the devil.
And I thank Him for it.

I am glad God was merciful to you. Love your testimony.

We don't get an understanding of God's attributes from men. (Aside: gee, some men now a days think men can turn into women). God defines God. God is GOOD by definition. So whatever He does is Good, Just, etc. If God let's His Son be tortured on the cross, He is good, not cruel.
Definition of cruel: willfully causing pain or suffering to others ....hmm, we know that God does this. He was the cause of the pain and suffering of His Son for us. God is sending people to hell for eternity.

I am still waiting for the Gospel according to Hopeful whereby the 1282 Indian can be saved and how this does not contradict Gal. 1:8 that states there is no other gospel. Another gospel is needed if one believes God gives everyone a chance to be saved.