Some Won't Get Saved

[Butch5]

It's also in the Abrahamic Covenant.....
Abraham will be the father of many nations...
Genesis 17:1.....

And through Abraham God re-establishes His original purpose for humanity, which was threatened by the very sinful population
of Noah's time. God wants to save man and not destroy him... This will be achieved through the descendants of Abraham.
(culminating with Christ).

Yes. God made a fourfold promise to Abraham. He told him He'd be the father of a great nation, the father or many nations, that all the nations would be blessed through him, and He'd give him all of the land he could see. All nations being blessed through Abraham culminates, as you said, in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

Actually, there are different branches of Calvinism. It doesn't surprise me that people buy into it. I've seen so many who don't want to address the issues in their belief system. I know quite a few Calvinists. The Denomination reminds me of the Pharisees. I think they make it so complicated that the average Calvinist doesn't really understand it. Most simply parrot proof texts. When I was a Calvinist and began questioning the beliefs I would go to the pastors. There were at least three in the Church I was at. When I'd ask them questions they'd say things like, 'some things are hard to understand' or 'it's a mystery'. I could buy that in the beginning with a passage or two. However, when that pretty much became the standard answer to a multitude of questions I wasn't buying it anymore. I began to look at what others believed. In the course of doing that I saw other interpretations of those passages that Calvinists use. As I began to look closely at those passages in context it became clear that they weren't saying what those pastors had told me they say.

It's unfortunate that others don't do what you did.
It's a mystery is common....
I'm often told I don't understand calvinism...
I think the problem is that I do understand it.
What could I do better than use John Calvin's own writings from the Institutes?
I have a 4 volume set here and the more one reads, the more horrifying it becomes...
although some of his commentaries are really good.
He even states that when Jesus says I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, He's speaking
to the Apostles about the Apostles...apparently most calvinists use this verse as proof that God chooses us not even knowing what Calvin believed.

Keep up the good fight.
Keep God's nature intact.
We could disagree on different topics...
but we cannot disagree on God's nature or it would mean God did not reveal Himself.
OR...if He did reveal Himself...He purposefully created two camps to cause confusion...
He is not a God of confusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. God made a fourfold promise to Abraham. He told him He'd be the father of a great nation, the father or many nations, that all the nations would be blessed through him, and He'd give him all of the land he could see. All nations being blessed through Abraham culminates, as you said, in Christ.

Right.
God made more than 1 covenant with Abraham....
but, alas, my memory is waning. Used to know them all pretty well.
I like being on the forum because I learn new things and remember old things.


Tomorrow....

 

[Butch5]

Right.
God made more than 1 covenant with Abraham....
but, alas, my memory is waning. Used to know them all pretty well.
I like being on the forum because I learn new things and remember old things.


Tomorrow....

Yeah, it definitely keeps one sharp.

 

[Butch5]

It's unfortunate that others don't do what you did.
It's a mystery is common....
I'm often told I don't understand calvinism...
I think the problem is that I do understand it.
What could I do better than use John Calvin's own writings from the Institutes?
I have a 4 volume set here and the more one reads, the more horrifying it becomes...
although some of his commentaries are really good.
He even states that when Jesus says I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, He's speaking
to the Apostles about the Apostles...apparently most calvinists use this verse as proof that God chooses us not even knowing what Calvin believed.

Keep up the good fight.
Keep God's nature intact.
We could disagree on different topics...
but we cannot disagree on God's nature or it would mean God did not reveal Himself.
OR...if He did reveal Himself...He purposefully created two camps to cause confusion...
He is not a God of confusion.

Have you read his letters? If you think his Institutes is horrifying wait till you see his letters.

 

[Episcopius]

I have read Calvin's Commentary on Habakkuk which I liked

I made it through INSTITUTES once - I will not re-read it - too nauseating...

I am having trouble with my laptop - last week I watched some Sproul videos just fine - today I cant hear it

between my laptop speakers and my hearing aids - something has gone south

 

[Butch5]

I have read Calvin's Commentary on Habakkuk which I liked

I made it through INSTITUTES once - I will not re-read it - too nauseating...

I am having trouble with my laptop - last week I watched some Sproul videos just fine - today I cant hear it

between my laptop speakers and my hearing aids - something has gone south

Just added a new hard drive and reinstall of all Bible software. Mine was so slow before it was ridiculous.

 

[for_his_glory]

If that were true, you would not be in Christ. All Gentiles would live and die condemned. But we are not. Because in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile. We are all one in him.
And why not. We, like all that exists, are of and from him.
Your case does not hold to the context of the new covenant Jesus , who was God almighty, was born for,and to die for, and seal with his blood.

What about the 144,000 from every tribe of Jacob/Israel. These are Jews that are separate from the Gentiles that are God's elect as He saved a remnant to Himself from every tribe.

Rev 7:1-8
John is given another vision after these things, meaning after the first six seals that are revealed to him. He now sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree until Gods servants were sealed.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

You can't make scripture say what you want it to as what we teach others has to line up with scripture. This is what you and everyone that follows Calvinism are doing as you have been indoctrinated with these fallacies of the devil and don't even realize it. Either you believe in what Calvin taught, or you believe in what Jesus has already taught as you can not serve to masters.

We are not against you, but against that which you are presenting as we are trying to get you to read the scriptures for what has already been written.

 

[Episcopius]

"the primitive Protestant saved paradigm"

Could you enlighten us as to what that IS, Humble Soul?

 

[for_his_glory]

Synergistic Soteriology.
Not scripture. God did not err when writing the names of his elect on the Book of Life, as your theology implies.
We do not work to become saved, we do not work to stay saved, we cannot do works that shall strip salvation from us.

We are saved by Christ's faith in us.

We are saved by God's free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation. We are not saved of ourselves so that no one may boast.

That's the issue with new versions of God's word.
The new say we must have faith in Christ. When the earlier versions tell us we are saved by the faith of Christ.
Which makes sense when he died to seal his new covenant with us,his chosen, that arrived by his grace as a free irrevocable gift.

Galatians 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 3

As far as I know none of us are Arminian or follow Arminianism so you can tuck Synergistic Soteriology and also Monergism in the garbage can as none of it lines itself up with the doctrines of Christ.

I do not follow doctrines of devils or man's carnal commentaries, but only believe the doctrines of Christ for what He has already taught all of us who will believe in Him by faith through Gods free gift of grace.

There you go again with this irrevocable gift, but yet even after we have asked you, you still provide us no scripture for this. Why is that?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith of Christ is understood as we study these scriptures to name a few in the KJV, John 12:44-50; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). The newer translations has changed where it says faith of Christ to faith in Christ. There is a difference between faith of Christ and faith in Christ as you can read in those scriptures out of the KJV. The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth, John 12:49, 50. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

The Son of God is that free gift of God's grace given to all who will believe by faith in Christ and confess Him as Lord and Savior so they will see the kingdom of God, Ephesians 2:8-10; John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10. There is no working towards something that is free as all we have to do is accept the gift. Believe is a verb that means something we consider to be true as we have heard the Gospel and not only heard it, but also believe what is written for our well being.

Faith works come after we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that empowers us to go out into the world and continue in the good works of the Lord, Acts 2:37, 38; James 2:14-20. The good works are taking His Gospel message to the world as we too are His disciples and to love and help those in need as what we do we do unto the glory of the Lord Christ Jesus, Matthew 25:31-40

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=reminder]
Any more personal attacks being made in this thread will cause you to be banned from this thread.
Love is of God and if we can not love one another than we are not of God.
[/ACMP]

 

[for_his_glory]

You clearly know not what Unitarian,Universalism, teaches.
Universalelism says everybody is saved.
Mao is as blessed as John the Baptist, after this life.

What you have in my posts is not nor has there ever been defense or promotion of Universalism. No reasonable reading of my posts could possibly arrive at that conclusion.

Offtopic question. I have read the owners of this named .org site are the same as own the named .com site. Is this true?

I know a lot more about various religions more than what you think I do as I have studied many of them. Whether you realize it or not in part you are presenting a hyper-grace theology that Universalism and Calvinism both share. You say you are not a Calvinist, but your theology shows you do follow his teachings.

This is CF.net and has no affiliation with .org or .com site

 

[for_his_glory]

I will. I find it sad that so many are so ill informed. Even when you try to help people understand, they just want to argue. I pointed out several passages that Chocolate Roadrunner had used out of context and showed the passage in context. He/She simply skipped over it and continued on. It's at that point I realized she's just parroting

Butch we can only give that of what is written in the scriptures, but indoctrination of false religions has blinded the eyes of many good people that can not even read the truth that is set before them. All we can do is pray that the scales be taken off their eyes

 

[JLB]

But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:21

 

[JLB]

Butch5 - as far as Israel being the Elect - I have mixed emotions...

Please consider this passage from Paul to Timothy concerning the elect, and who it refers to.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The context helps us discern who is being referred to as the elect.


The Jews.





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Wondering,

Actually, there are different branches of Calvinism. It doesn't surprise me that people buy into it. I've seen so many who don't want to address the issues in their belief system. I know quite a few Calvinists. The Denomination reminds me of the Pharisees. I think they make it so complicated that the average Calvinist doesn't really understand it. Most simply parrot proof texts. When I was a Calvinist and began questioning the beliefs I would go to the pastors. There were at least three in the Church I was at. When I'd ask them questions they'd say things like, 'some things are hard to understand' or 'it's a mystery'. I could buy that in the beginning with a passage or two. However, when that pretty much became the standard answer to a multitude of questions I wasn't buying it anymore. I began to look at what others believed. In the course of doing that I saw other interpretations of those passages that Calvinists use. As I began to look closely at those passages in context it became clear that they weren't saying what those pastors had told me they say.

The hardest thing for one to do, as well I know, is to come out from the bondage of religion. God is not about a man's religion, but all about us having a personal relationship with Hs Son Christ Jesus. We grow our faith we learn who He is by reading His word and drawing closer to Him to learn His ways as He walked in obedience to God and His commands and we need to be doing the same. Apart from the Holy Spirit man can teach us nothing.

Some will be saved and some will face damnation by the choices they make.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Who Me]

If God the Father, removes someone from Christ, can anyone resist

God the Father and God the Son are not at odds with each other over any issue, so this statement does not apply.


Wandering away., The picture is of a toddler walking with Dad, holding his hand. That ticket cannot wander away from Dad, anymore than we can wander away from Jesus.

 

[Episcopius]

?

 

[Who Me]

Do you think that vs. 29 sounds like God chooses

Context is always key and this contex is one of people being judged and the consequences are given in this verse.

As you are aware there are verse that talk of those God forknew he also predestined in love etc etc etc.


This argument goes round in circles, for me it boils down to what glorifies God more. Him in control or man in control of salvation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Context is always key and this contex is one of people being judged and the consequences are given in this verse.

As you are aware there are verse that talk of those God forknew he also predestined in love etc etc etc.


This argument goes round in circles, for me it boils down to what glorifies God more. Him in control or man in control of salvation.

Does God separate us from Him and causes damnation to be brought upon our self, or do we do this of our own choices we make as God judges all things.