Some Won't Get Saved

[for_his_glory]

For those who insist they are responsible for staying saved, this article may save your life by saving precious moments of that life insisting you can overcome what Jesus did to and for you.

If you can post in all these many pages, you can take the time to learn God does not take back his righteousness.

How a Christian can Lose Salvation: 14 Step Plan

Once saved, always saved? If not, how can you lose your salvation? Here is David Reagan's 14-step plan to get out of going to heaven.

av1611.com

"Read carefully Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

If after reading those 14 points you believe you can overcome by your choice the irrevocable gifts of God's faith and grace upon you, you're correct.

The Bible however does not say that. Anywhere at all.

It's simple. If you can lose your salvation, it is not salvation.

I couldn't even make it through step 5 as I could not take anymore of the fallacies that are written there. Nothing more than false doctrines of Calvinism as they make the scriptures line up with their heretical teachings, but fail miserably at it. Nothing said there lined up with the Doctrines of Christ for what He has already taught.

Calvinism has a form of godliness, but yet keep on spreading their false doctrines.

2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[JLB]

Jesus said those who left him did so because they were not one with us.
There are the elect and there is everyone not the elect.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

You are quoting from 1 John.


We we’re discussing being “drawn” to Him from John chapter 6 where the context is Jesus, referring to those who were literally there with Him, in the flesh and blood, while He was on earth.


Being “drawn” to Christ by the Spirit, certainly does not equate to leaving a Church fellowship.


Have you ever left a Church?





JLB

 

[Butch5]

Your error , besides subscribing to synergistic soteriology, is to hold to what manifests that false teaching in the first place.
Imagining each book in the Bible is separated from the whole so to not make for one cohesive message to the world.
That's why Synergists believe they have to fear losing salvation, and need to work to stay saved.

You're the one who is separating everything. You take each passage ignore the context in which it was written and claim it says something that it doesn't. You claimed that no one could come to Jesus unless they were drawn by the Father. However, in context we see that that was a specific instance and that it changed. Your using that passage shows that you either don't understand the context or have no regard for it. You've done the same with Romans 8:28, 11:29 and others.

Whenever someone routinely posts single verses of Scripture when they make a claim it is a sure sign they are proof texting. That's what you're doing. You seem to be well verse in Calvinist proof texts, but not so much in the Bible.

 

[JLB]

Your error , besides subscribing to synergistic soteriology, is to hold to what manifests that false teaching in the first place.

Do not misrepresent what another member has said.

Do not label someone as being “synergistic” or “Arminian” or whatever if they themselves don’t refer to themselves as such.

 

[Butch5]

Of course you would believe this....
The would be irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints.
Question is: How do you know for sure that YOU will persevere till the end?
You don't. Since God "picked" you, He could also decide to release you back to the status of lost.
And, of course, through no choice of yours!
What a sad lot calvinists are....
They can't even be secure in their salvation.

...there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

Source: The Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin
Book 3 Chapter 24 Paragraph 8

How can a person possibly be sure they are not one of those enlightened only for a time??

It's so wonderful that God's plan is to reveal Himself to all....
1 Timothy 2:4 God's desire is for all to be saved - alas, not all want to be saved and it is their free choice not to be.

Because He is not partial but invites everyone to salvation....
Romans 2:11 No partiality
John 3:16 Whosoever believes in Jesus is saved...of their own free will....
Deuteronomy 30:19 Choose life, in order that you may live. Choosing denotes free will.
John 5:39-40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!
40Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
The scriptures pointed to Jesus, but the Jews wanting to kill Him were UNWILLING and REFUSED to go to Jesus to receive life.

Unwillingness and refusal imply free will.

And so, we can know we are saved because we CHOOSE to remain with Christ, dwell with Him,
Abide in Him, and follow His commandments.

She can't know. You see, that's the thing with Calvinism, you can't know. Sure, they say they believe so they are of the elect. However, they also say that if one falls away they were never saved. So, if that is the case then they could at some point fall away, in which case they have to admit that they were never saved. The whole time they thought they were saved they were merely having a delusion.

 

[JLB]

Your error , besides subscribing to synergistic soteriology, is to hold to what manifests that false teaching in the first place.
Imagining each book in the Bible is separated from the whole so to not make for one cohesive message to the world.
That's why Synergists believe they have to fear losing salvation, and need to work to stay saved.

From what I have read, his message is congruent with scripture as a whole, while I see you taking “proof texts” out of context to establish your teaching.


Christians who believe what Jesus said about remaining “in Him” understand what He plainly stated. We fear and love God and respect His word; His doctrine.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


How can a person continue to have eternal life if they are removed from Christ?






JLB

 

[JLB]

I refer to myself as "synergistic" as well as "Arminian"

So be it.


I just don’t like divisive names of sects being applied to God’s people if they don’t refer to themselves as such.


I don’t like labels. Labels mean division; divide into categories of belief systems.


If someone claims to be a Calvinist then I refer to their teaching as Calvinist.


We should all be children of God; Bible believing Christians, followers of Christ and His teachings.



JLB

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

From what I have read, his message is congruent with scripture as a whole, while I see you taking “proof texts” out of context to establish your teaching.

I disagree. You think scripture has a different message in every book and chapter.
When someone sustains a teaching of Christ with other scripture in other passages in the old or new testament you think they're jumping around and resorting to proof texting.
Because neither you nor he realize the Gospel is a succinct message that is foretold, as is Jesus there present, in the old testament.
The new testament is the fulfillment of what was promised in the old. And all parts of the new testament sustain the message and mission of Jesus.

In point of fact therefore, those teachings here who deny eternal salvation is a free irrevocable gift of God, and the saved in him must work to stay saved, fear they can lose salvation, and be removed from God's Book of Life at anytime, are proof texting to further a message of synergistic soteriology and conditional salvation. Which by definition of salvation itself, would be no salvation at all when one believes they can do something to lose what they did nothing to gain in the first place.

God's Elect abide in him because they are sealed by his indwelling holy spirit .
They are never removed from Christ because Christ chose them. They did not choose Christ.
Those who think they are removed are likely like unto those for whom his teaching applied when he spoke of those disciples who left him and the others. They were not one with him. He never knew them.
Those Christ knows may backslide,lose faith. But he never loses faith in them because they are saved by the faith of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Synergistic Soteriology.
Not scripture. God did not err when writing the names of his elect on the Book of Life, as your theology implies.
We do not work to become saved, we do not work to stay saved, we cannot do works that shall strip salvation from us.

The names in the Book of Life can be erased.
Revelation 3:4-5
4‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Deuteronomy 29:20
20“The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

We are saved by Christ's faith in us.

We are saved by God's free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation. We are not saved of ourselves so that no one may boast.

That's the issue with new versions of God's word.
The new say we must have faith in Christ. When the earlier versions tell us we are saved by the faith of Christ.
Which makes sense when he died to seal his new covenant with us,his chosen, that arrived by his grace as a free irrevocable gift.

I have heard it said that we cannot make a doctrine out of one VERSE.
YOU are making a doctrine out of one WORD.
One word does not a doctrine make....
We are saved by faith...our faith...
Ephesians 2:8

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
It does not say that Jesus will believe for us.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Those who have faith....

Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Jesus told the woman HER faith saved her...not His faith...

many more verses if you need them.

Check out WHY CALVINISM IS UNBIBLICAL - IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
in the THEOLOGY forum. Coming soon....

 

[JLB]

I disagree. You think scripture has a different message in every book and chapter.

The overall message of scripture is Love. This is the culmination of His doctrine and commandments which is called The Truth.

Loving God and loving our neighbor, is the general theme of God’s word.


Here is the biblical definition of love:


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:9-10



He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” John 14:21




What you view as legalistic works (keeping His commandments), God views as love.


Those who do not keep His commandments are haters; haters of God and haters of his people.


Be careful which message you are promoting.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15









JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree. You think scripture has a different message in every book and chapter.
When someone sustains a teaching of Christ with other scripture in other passages in the old or new testament you think they're jumping around and resorting to proof texting.
Because neither you nor he realize the Gospel is a succinct message that is foretold, as is Jesus there present, in the old testament.
The new testament is the fulfillment of what was promised in the old. And all parts of the new testament sustain the message and mission of Jesus.

In point of fact therefore, those teachings here who deny eternal salvation is a free irrevocable gift of God, and the saved in him must work to stay saved, fear they can lose salvation, and be removed from God's Book of Life at anytime, are proof texting to further a message of synergistic soteriology and conditional salvation. Which by definition of salvation itself, would be no salvation at all when one believes they can do something to lose what they did nothing to gain in the first place.

God's Elect abide in him because they are sealed by his indwelling holy spirit .
They are never removed from Christ because Christ chose them. They did not choose Christ.
Those who think they are removed are likely like unto those for whom his teaching applied when he spoke of those disciples who left him and the others. They were not one with him. He never knew them.
Those Christ knows may backslide,lose faith. But he never loses faith in them because they are saved by the faith of Christ.

I don't know any Christian that does not believe that salvation is a free gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8 states that very clearly....

Also Galatians 2:16, which also obliterates your idea that we are saved by Jesus' faith:
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

What do you suppose the above is stating?
Where does it state we are saved by Jesus' faith?


But, yes, we can lose what we never worked to get in the first place.

Please explain this verse for us:
Colossians 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,,,

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

The overall message of scripture is Love. This is the culmination of His doctrine and commandments which is called The Truth.

Loving God and loving our neighbor, is the general theme of God’s word.


Here is the biblical definition of love:


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:9-10



He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” John 14:21




What you view as legalistic works (keeping His commandments), God views as love.


Those who do not keep His commandments are haters; haters of God and haters of his people.


Be careful which message you are promoting.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15









JLB

Never once did I say keeping Gods commands is works.

 

[for_his_glory]

Indeed, some are led to think they have to labor to stay saved. And are not secure in the promise.
They know themselves. And as such they are right.

Again, faith without works is dead faith and those who are of dead faith are none of Christ own.

What we have here is the heresy of Unitarian Universalism hyper-grace teachings being set before us. There is nowhere in scripture that states that all our sins are forgiven, past, present and future and that we never need to repent as that comes against the teachings of Christ in Matthew 4:17; Mark 2:17; Luke 19:10; Acts 2:37, 38; 3:19; 2 Peter 3:9 and so many more scriptures on repentance. Below is what Jesus has taught in all truths, for He can not lie.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we realize we have sinned, as the Holy Spirit will always send conviction, God will always forgive when we repent of that sin. We strive for that perfection that is in Christ that we may be like Him who knew no sin. We will mess up at times as we are not perfect in the flesh, but yet forgiveness is always given, but we have to acknowledge we sinned against God and ask for forgiveness.

The Holy Spirit does indeed convict us of sin, John 16:7-15; Acts 2:37; 2 Corinthians 7:9, 10; Hebrews 10:26-30; 1 John 1:9; Titus 1:9;

A Christian can grieve the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) when they willingly sin Genesis 6:6; Psalms 78:40; Isaiah 63:10, Ephesians 4:17-32; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; Hebrews 10:26, 27

There are seven things that please God.
1. Have faith in Him - Hebrews 11:6
2. Be Spiritually minded - Romans 8:6-8
3. Fear (respect) God - Psalms 147:11
4. Study and follow Jesus - Matthew 17:5
5. Obey God - Hebrews 13:20, 21
6. Do God's will Hebrews 13:20, 21
7. Give the sacrifice God wants - Hebrews 13:15, 16

God has not saved every person in the world, but sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life, Matthew 9:9-13; John 3:16

The blessings of God are abundant in our life when we are in obedience to God, Matthew 16:24-28; John 10:1-10.

Grace does not give us a license to sin freely as the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26, 27

Humility is how we come to the Lord, Proverbs 22:4; 1 Peter 5:6-11

Unrepentant sinners will receive God's final judgement of damnation in everlasting punishment and will be cast into the lake of fire, Matthew 25:41-46; John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20:15


What Universalism hyper-grace teaches

* You do not need to confess your sins any longer to God because 1 John 1:9 is not written to Christians

* Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit does not come to convict you of sin

* The idea that the Holy Spirit comes to convict you of sin is a grotesque misrepresentation of repentance and that it was heathenish

* Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit will not make you feel guilt, shame nor rebuke you about your sin

* You do not or cannot grieve the Holy Spirit when you sin

*Jesus Christ plus nothing equals everything, as you do not need to do anything to please God

* You do not need to fear God, as God is completely pleased with you because of what Jesus did on the cross

* God is not moved by anything you do, good or bad

* Jesus did not die to mortify your behavior so don't be to conscientious about sin

* Prayers for forgiveness and praying for salvation of loved ones are a waste of time because God has already saved the world. Forgiveness is not something God does, it's something He's already done.

* A repentant life is not necessary because you were forgiven when you believed in Christ

* You will not receive any extra blessings by being obedient to God

* Under this new divine revelation of grace you are free to sin because you are a saint

* Humility is considered debasement and a teaching of weakness

* Giving assurance to unrepentant sinners that they are eternally secure

 

[GodsGrace]

She can't know. You see, that's the thing with Calvinism, you can't know. Sure, they say they believe so they are of the elect. However, they also say that if one falls away they were never saved. So, if that is the case then they could at some point fall away, in which case they have to admit that they were never saved. The whole time they thought they were saved they were merely having a delusion.

It's sad...
but it's kind of funny.
This is why I constantly state that calvinism makes no sense.
It's just not a logical teaching of soteriology OR the nature of God.
Going to post a link to Sproul in Theology tomorrow (wish I had more time)....
It's just too much.... Look for it....(irresistible grace).

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

So be it.


I just don’t like divisive names of sects being applied to God’s people if they don’t refer to themselves as such.


I don’t like labels. Labels mean division; divide into categories of belief systems.


If someone claims to be a Calvinist then I refer to their teaching as Calvinist.


We should all be children of God; Bible believing Christians, followers of Christ and His teachings.



JLB

If you refer to yourself as a Christian, you are applying a label to yourself.
We were not called Christian until the Apostles arrived in the Greek city of Antioch.
People of the book, or, the way, was a common label prior to that. Or even just, "believers".

 

[JLB]

Never once did I say keeping Gods commands is works.

Here is just one of many such comments you have made, about me and the scriptures I post concerning “keeping His commandments“.

In point of fact therefore, those teachings here who deny eternal salvation is a free irrevocable gift of God, and the saved in him must work to stay saved, fear they can lose salvation, and be removed from God's Book of Life at anytime, are proof texting to further a message of synergistic soteriology and conditional salvation.

Here is who the Bible says, will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Do you believe a brother in Christ who hates his brother, continues to have eternal life remaining in him?





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

that passage is unknown to you? When it has been posted in threads of this nature already?

When it has been posted ad infinitum at CF.net, and CF.com, where you were a member as JPT and for years? No.
Copy and paste that sentence you wrote me with your question, and paste to a search engine. Paul's writing, book,chapter,verse, will appear post haste.

One who makes excuses are those who can not provide what another ask of them. I too would like to see that scripture and can yu tell us what forum and thread it is found in here at CF.net between June 13 and today being June 23?

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB hates labels. They departmentalize Christianity and this should not be.

However, some labels help to understand the other member immediately, instead of taking pages of writing.

As to synergism....
Is there really such a teaching in the bible?
I also would refer to myself as synergist....
but which part do we play?
Isn't everything monergistic?
God saves us...
God keeps us...
Without Him we can do nothing.
Sometimes I think this is just a ploy to divide us (by calvinists, I mean).

As to Arminianism...who really knows what he taught anyway?
He started out agreeing with Calvin and then changed somewhat...
I really don't know what he believed.
The calvinists have created this division... one is either a calvinist or an arminian.
I like to just say that we are Christian.
Are calvinists Christian?
I hear say that they are our brothers in Christ.
I have a FEELING (can't know for sure) that God is going to be pretty upset with them.
Just look at how they make God seem to unbelievers.
Who would want to worship a God like that?

It's nice to have you here....

 

[JLB]

If you refer to yourself as a Christian, you are applying a label to yourself.

Yes, a biblical label.


Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16


Christian means follower of Christ.





JLB

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

Again, faith without works is dead faith and those who are of dead faith are none of Christ own.

What we have here is the heresy of Unitarian Universalism hyper-grace teachings being set before us. There is nowhere in scripture that states that all our sins are forgiven, past, present and future and that we never need to repent as that comes against the teachings of Christ in Matthew 4:17; Mark 2:17; Luke 19:10; Acts 2:37, 38; 3:19; 2 Peter 3:9 and so many more scriptures on repentance. Below is what Jesus has taught in all truths, for He can not lie.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we realize we have sinned, as the Holy Spirit will always send conviction, God will always forgive when we repent of that sin. We strive for that perfection that is in Christ that we may be like Him who knew no sin. We will mess up at times as we are not perfect in the flesh, but yet forgiveness is always given, but we have to acknowledge we sinned against God and ask for forgiveness.

The Holy Spirit does indeed convict us of sin, John 16:7-15; Acts 2:37; 2 Corinthians 7:9, 10; Hebrews 10:26-30; 1 John 1:9; Titus 1:9;

A Christian can grieve the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) when they willingly sin Genesis 6:6; Psalms 78:40; Isaiah 63:10, Ephesians 4:17-32; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; Hebrews 10:26, 27

There are seven things that please God.
1. Have faith in Him - Hebrews 11:6
2. Be Spiritually minded - Romans 8:6-8
3. Fear (respect) God - Psalms 147:11
4. Study and follow Jesus - Matthew 17:5
5. Obey God - Hebrews 13:20, 21
6. Do God's will Hebrews 13:20, 21
7. Give the sacrifice God wants - Hebrews 13:15, 16

God has not saved every person in the world, but sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life, Matthew 9:9-13; John 3:16

The blessings of God are abundant in our life when we are in obedience to God, Matthew 16:24-28; John 10:1-10.

Grace does not give us a license to sin freely as the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26, 27

Humility is how we come to the Lord, Proverbs 22:4; 1 Peter 5:6-11

Unrepentant sinners will receive God's final judgement of damnation in everlasting punishment and will be cast into the lake of fire, Matthew 25:41-46; John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20:15


What Universalism hyper-grace teaches

* You do not need to confess your sins any longer to God because 1 John 1:9 is not written to Christians

* Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit does not come to convict you of sin

* The idea that the Holy Spirit comes to convict you of sin is a grotesque misrepresentation of repentance and that it was heathenish

* Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit will not make you feel guilt, shame nor rebuke you about your sin

* You do not or cannot grieve the Holy Spirit when you sin

*Jesus Christ plus nothing equals everything, as you do not need to do anything to please God

* You do not need to fear God, as God is completely pleased with you because of what Jesus did on the cross

* God is not moved by anything you do, good or bad

* Jesus did not die to mortify your behavior so don't be to conscientious about sin

* Prayers for forgiveness and praying for salvation of loved ones are a waste of time because God has already saved the world. Forgiveness is not something God does, it's something He's already done.

* A repentant life is not necessary because you were forgiven when you believed in Christ

* You will not receive any extra blessings by being obedient to God

* Under this new divine revelation of grace you are free to sin because you are a saint

* Humility is considered debasement and a teaching of weakness

* Giving assurance to unrepentant sinners that they are eternally secure

You clearly know not what Unitarian,Universalism, teaches.
Universalelism says everybody is saved.
Mao is as blessed as John the Baptist, after this life.

What you have in my posts is not nor has there ever been defense or promotion of Universalism. No reasonable reading of my posts could possibly arrive at that conclusion.

Offtopic question. I have read the owners of this named .org site are the same as own the named .com site. Is this true?