Walpole
Member
Who said that???????????????????? So, the apostles didn't really talk to God/Christ ???? WOW!
I said your conclusion is false. (You concluded Christ is not God.)
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Strengthening families through biblical principles.
Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.
Read daily articles from Focus on the Family in the Marriage and Parenting Resources forum.
Who said that???????????????????? So, the apostles didn't really talk to God/Christ ???? WOW!
, I don't think that's the main point. the point is what is the difference between those who come to faith and those who don't since we all start out not having faith? As you know, I say our faith is a gift given to some and not others.
But the ones he had already given to know the mysteries at that particular moment, were saved/born again. Again, "to know", is intended to know at the spiritual level of understanding
and encompasses all those who would ever become His disciples, past, present, future, everywhere
But the ones he had already given to know the mysteries at that particular moment, were saved/born again.
Premise 1: The apostles spoke to ChristThere is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.
I am trying to draw you a simple picture using a syllogism. We agree that the conclusion is false. Now you simply have to look at why the conclusion is false.I said your conclusion is false. (You concluded Christ is not God.)
There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.
You uphold intermediaries, here are some "intermediary" prayers:Salvation history is about God using intermediaries. From prophets to priests, God has always used man to convey His message.
Salvation history is about God using intermediaries. From prophets to priests, God has always used man to convey His message. Creation is the theater of God's grace, which culminates in His ultimate act of using man by His becoming one. There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.
The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. If you have a "direct line to God", you don't need the Church and therefore Jesus instituting one was superfluous.
[Jhn 6:65-68 KJV]Yes, as they had heard and believed the Gospel, and were following Jesus.
Premise 1: The apostles spoke to Christ
Premise 2: There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God.
Conclusion: Christ is not God.
I am trying to draw you a simple picture using a syllogism. We agree that the conclusion is false. Now you simply have to look at why the conclusion is false.
It could be premise 1 is false. But there are 100s of examples of people talking to Christ/God directly.
It could be premise 2 is false. Premise 2 is your statement that: "There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone."
It could be that premise 1 and premise 2 do not support the conclusion. This would be a logic fallacy. Premise 1 and premise 2, if true, must logically support the conclusion. (unless you don't believe the presupposition that the Bible to be true)
You uphold intermediaries, here are some "intermediary" prayers:
“Remember, most loving Virgin Mary,
never was it heard
that anyone who turned to you for help
was left unaided. . . .
I run to your protection
for you are my mother.”
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last.”
The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that Catholics do not pray to saints in heaven or to Mary; rather, Catholics are taught they can ask saints or Mary to pray for them. According to the Roman Catholic Church, asking saints in heaven for their prayers is no different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Many Catholics do, in fact, pray directly to saints and/or Mary, as seen in the above prayers. Even in cases in which Mary or a saint is simply being asked to pray, the practice has no biblical basis. Gotquestions.org
Going to intermediaries to speak to God (excluding Christ) is a SERIOUS offense.I was told by an ex-Catholic that asking (praying!) to Mary and/or "saints" in heaven -- we're all saints -- is nothing more than ancestor worship. I agree with him 100%.
Since you have a direct line to God, are you thus able to:Everyone "born of the Spirit" has a "direct line to God" (including me).
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come." John 16:13
It truly saddens me that you don't understand the basis of the New Covenant, but instead are caught up in the Old Covenant of being separated from a remote God, subject to His external rules. The priesthood being separate from the rest of the people is not part of the New Covenant. We Christians are all the adopted children of God, part of His immediate family.
You can rely on "the church", priests, rituals, etc. that you think are necessary to live a Christian life, just like the OT Jews lived. I rely on my Savior.
I would call it an act of ignorance rather than a SERIOUS offense. People have been led astray by false doctrine instead of paying attention to the truth in Christ.Going to intermediaries to speak to God (excluding Christ) is a SERIOUS offense.
Hmmm, I wonder if one can go to an intermediary to intercede for going to intermediary .... *giggle* ... I'm being naughty
You obviously missed my point which is why your syllogism was flawed. I'll try again...Premise 1: The apostles spoke to Christ
Premise 2: There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God.
Conclusion: Christ is not God.
I am trying to draw you a simple picture using a syllogism. We agree that the conclusion is false. Now you simply have to look at why the conclusion is false.
It could be premise 1 is false. But there are 100s of examples of people talking to Christ/God directly.
It could be premise 2 is false. Premise 2 is your statement that: "There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone."
It could be that premise 1 and premise 2 do not support the conclusion. This would be a logic fallacy. Premise 1 and premise 2, if true, must logically support the conclusion. (unless you don't believe the presupposition that the Bible to be true)
You uphold intermediaries, here are some "intermediary" prayers:
“Remember, most loving Virgin Mary,
never was it heard
that anyone who turned to you for help
was left unaided. . . .
I run to your protection
for you are my mother.”
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last.”
The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that Catholics do not pray to saints in heaven or to Mary; rather, Catholics are taught they can ask saints or Mary to pray for them. According to the Roman Catholic Church, asking saints in heaven for their prayers is no different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Many Catholics do, in fact, pray directly to saints and/or Mary, as seen in the above prayers. Even in cases in which Mary or a saint is simply being asked to pray, the practice has no biblical basis. Gotquestions.org
This is illogical/fantastical.Since you have a direct line to God, are you thus able to:
- Baptize yourself?
- Marry yourself?
- Preach your own sermons?
- Forgive sins?
- Anoint yourself?
- Write your own Scriptures?
- Authenticate other Scripture not penned by you?
Didn't you post this (or something similar) earlier? Your reductio ad absurdum examples have no value.Since you have a direct line to God, are you thus able to:
- Baptize yourself?
- Marry yourself?
- Preach your own sermons?
- Forgive sins?
- Anoint yourself?
- Write your own Scriptures?
- Authenticate other Scripture not penned by you?
All these things are done by and through the Church, which is an extension of the Incarnation. None of these are even possible with a "just me and Jesus" theology or if one has "a direct line to God." Perhaps that's why many believe one doesn't have to do any of these things. After all, the very concept of the Church is meaningless if one truly has "a direct line with God."
Equivocation fallacy.This is illogical/fantastical.
Let's use it for humor.
Sine you have a direct line to your wife, are you able to:
-produce children by yourself
-marry yourself
-go to the bathroom by yourself (hmmm, well that one is true ... giggles)
Yes, and you ignored it. Please explain to me why you don't do any of those things if you have a direct line to God.Didn't you post this (or something similar) earlier? Your reductio ad absurdum examples have no value.
It truly saddens me that you have missed the essence of what it means to be a Christian -- a child of God -- and instead reduce it to practicing rituals. None of what you cited above has anything to do with having a personal relationship with God. They're all ritual acts that have nothing to do with the deity.
I see your point. My point are that the apostles, and 1000s of other people (Pilate) spoke direct to God/Christ ... therefore your statement that "There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone" is ridiculous.You obviously missed my point which is why your syllogism was flawed. I'll try again...
---> The very fact that you know the Apostles spoke with Christ is because that fact came via an intermediary! It wasn't put into your head directly by God like a gnostic revelation. Rather, it was witness, written down and memorialized by...wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...
Yes, and you ignored it. Please explain to me why you don't do any of those things if you have a direct line to God.
For example, did you baptize yourself? If not, why?
Compromise ... it is an act of ignorance causing a SERIOUS offense.I would call it an act of ignorance rather than a SERIOUS offense.
Did you baptize yourself? Yes or no? If not, why? (Swimming is not baptism.)Again, it truly saddens me that you have missed the essence of what it means to be a Christian -- a child of God -- and instead reduce it to practicing rituals.
a) Baptism is a ritual.
b) Should I answer you with a "clever" retort? Okay, I went swimming the other day, went underwater, and resurfaced. So I "baptized" myself.
Do you or do you not have a personal, intimate relationship with God?