Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[Fastfredy0]

Since faith comes through the preached word of God, then everyone who is preached to must come to faith without exception since, according to the above, it is the preached word that brings faith.

That is the same as saying that since babies come from women then every woman must have a baby.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did they ever come back to clarify themselves

No, i don't think so. The person is not a good communicator, but my patience was low that day so I couldn't resist pointing out the obvious in a subtle, semi-humerous way as the result of his statement would be hell for everyone.

 

[rogerg]

That is the same as saying that since babies come from women then every woman must have a baby.

No, don't think that's the equivalent. Jaybo said that faith comes from what is heard. If what is preached
is what is heard and visa versa, then according to that, those who are preached to come to faith. Anyway, I don't think that's the main point. the point is what is the difference between those who come to faith and those who don't since we all start out not having faith? As you know, I say our faith is a gift given to some and not others. Even those who are given faith by God - a belief in Christ - will desire to continue to grow in doctrinal knowledge which will increase wisdom. To gain that, spiritual eye, ears, renewed mind, etc are prerequisites.

I'm getting tired so I hope that makes sense

 

[GodsGrace]

God presented the option, but because of Satan's hold over mankind, they/we are blinded, unable to choose correctly.
Even after having witnessed God's power first hand in the OT, they still chose to ignore Him. The same is true even until today: unless God intervenes (draws us) on an individual basis, our (their) eyes will remain shut and hearts will not understand.
Also, and I think this important, In God's new covenant He informs us that He Himself will change our minds and our hearts - for those whom He has chosen. The rest will remain blind.

[Isa 44:18 KJV]
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

I will put my laws into their hearts
DOES NOT mean that God places His laws in some hearts and not other.
It just means that God's laws move FROM THE HEAD....(Legalism)
TO THE HEART (faith/grace).

As to Isaiah 44:18, please read the entire chapter.
It's speaking about how dumb those not believing were to worship false idols.

And, alas, you do mention the O.T. many times....
I'd like to see somewhere in the N.T. that states that persons are unable to CHOOSE God by their own free will.
You won't find it.
Because there has been a lot of revelation since Isaiah....Isaiah was written almost 3,000 years ago.
Revelation about God Himself and His desire for us...

Remember, Jesus is the LAST revelation (and the clearest)...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

28 pages and fast freddy is still going at it
now that's dedication!

 

[GodsGrace]

No, don't think that's the equivalent. Jaybo said that faith comes from what is heard. If what is preached
is what is heard and visa versa, then according to that, those who are preached to come to faith. Anyway, I don't think that's the main point. the point is what is the difference between those who come to faith and those who don't since we all start out not having faith? As you know, I say our faith is a gift given to some and not others. Even those who are given faith by God - a belief in Christ - will desire to continue to grow in doctrinal knowledge which will increase wisdom. To gain that, spiritual eye, ears, renewed mind, etc are prerequisites.

I'm getting tired so I hope that makes sense

Where does the bible state that faith is given to some and not to others?


Because some do not come to believe in God...does not mean that God withholds faith from them.

1 Timothy 2:4 states that God desires that all men be saved.
2 Peter 3:9 states that God wants everyone to repent.
Romans 2:11 tells us that God is not partial.
Acts 10:34 tells us that God shows no partiality.

Could these writers have been wrong?

 

[GodsGrace]

28 pages and fast freddy is still going at it
now that's dedication!

Yes sir.
But he won't speak to me.
And I don't know why.
Ditto for rogerg .
Both of the reformed faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did they ever come back to clarify themselves?

Why would that statement require clarification?
Do you know anyone that keeps ALL of God's commandments at all times?

However, yes, to keep our salvation, which was freely given to us because we believed the gospel message and came to have faith in Jesus,
we are required to keep God's commandments, as Jesus stated many times.

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

[Walpole]

Why would that statement require clarification?
Do you know anyone that keeps ALL of God's commandments at all times?

However, yes, to keep our salvation, which was freely given to us because we believed the gospel message and came to have faith in Jesus,
we are required to keep God's commandments, as Jesus stated many times.

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

If we are expected to keep the commandments of God, but fail to do so, what is the remedy?

 

[GodsGrace]

If we are expected to keep the commandments of God, but fail to do so, what is the remedy?

Of course the remedy is confession.
John 20:23

The early church did not really have confession the way we know it today...it changed over the years.
In the beginning Christians confessed to each other and in a church setting, in unison.

Honestly, I'm a bit confused about this.
I'm sorry for when I sin and I know we all sin more than we think we do.
I still don't understand the reason to have to go to confession...although I know many reasons
why the CC believes we should.

 

[jaybo]

If we are expected to keep the commandments of God, but fail to do so, what is the remedy?

If we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, He will lead us in living a life as close to what God wants as possible. Nobody goes through life without committing sin, but the penalty for our sins has already been paid by another: Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 10:14-17 (NET 2.1), "How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

I prefer this translation as it removes a lot of the ambiguity of the text meaning and there are about 65,000 translators' notes

Again "... faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

Hi Jaybo,
I also am trying to switch from the NASB to the NLT.
I'm really tired of all this talk about what a verse means...
I don't mean what it means DOCTRINALLY,,,but what it means in plain English!

I like the NET, but ended up with the NLT because I found the LIFE study bible, NLT version, that I really like.

So yes, faith comes by hearing or what is heard.
And what or how is it heard?
by the Word of God....or preaching the word of God through Christ, or through the preached word of Christ.

 

[jaybo]

Of course the remedy is confession.
John 20:23

The early church did not really have confession the way we know it today...it changed over the years.
In the beginning Christians confessed to each other and in a church setting, in unison.

Honestly, I'm a bit confused about this.
I'm sorry for when I sin and I know we all sin more than we think we do.
I still don't understand the reason to have to go to confession...although I know many reasons
why the CC believes we should.

IMHO there is no reason to have a formal confession of sins to a priest (or whomever). I confess my sins to God, my father -- "Forgive me Father for I have sinned" -- and if I have wronged some person then I make amends to them.

Humbling one's self and asking for forgiveness from someone who you haven't wronged seems to me to be madness.

 

[crossnote]

Why would that statement require clarification?
Do you know anyone that keeps ALL of God's commandments at all times?

However, yes, to keep our salvation, which was freely given to us because we believed the gospel message and came to have faith in Jesus,
we are required to keep God's commandments, as Jesus stated many times.

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Why would this statement need clarification?
“Someone wrote saying that we are not saved if we don't keep all of God's commandments.”

If you truly believe that, then you need to repent and believe the Gospel.

Mark 1:15 KJV
[15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[Walpole]

Of course the remedy is confession.
John 20:23

The early church did not really have confession the way we know it today...it changed over the years.
In the beginning Christians confessed to each other and in a church setting, in unison.

Honestly, I'm a bit confused about this.
I'm sorry for when I sin and I know we all sin more than we think we do.
I still don't understand the reason to have to go to confession...although I know many reasons
why the CC believes we should.

I’ve posted this before but I’ll repeat it here…


Throughout salvation history, God has consistently sought to extract a confession from man. For example, in the beginning, we read "Who told you that you were naked?" Or, "Where is your brother Abel?" I could go on and on throughout the pages of Scripture.

History culminates when God actually enters into his creation by becoming Man in the person of Jesus Christ. After His death and resurrection, on the evening of Easter, our Blessed Lord appeared to the Apostles and breathes on them. (This is significant itself given it is only the second time in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man - the first being when He breathed life into Adam.) When Jesus breathes on them, He imparts on them the Holy Ghost, and then gives them the authority to forgive sins. St. John records the event as follows...

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'” (John 20:19-23)

This is where the Christian practice of confession became a sacrament. In order for the Apostles (and their successors) to be able to forgive sins, they must first be told the sins. Hence confession, by definition, must be auricular. It has been this way from the beginning of the Church. We see this in practice in Acts when the Ephesians confess their sins to Paul in Acts 19:18. You mentioned St. Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, and to the faithful there the Apostle tells them he is charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." ( 2 Col 5:18) St. James instructs the faithful to make a confession (5:16) and St. John tells us if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven. (1 John 1:9)

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the very first thing prodigal son does upon returning to the bosom of the Father is he makes a confession. (cf. Luke 15:21) Jesus is telling us this for a reason.

Confession was practiced immediately from the Church's infancy, as testified to in the Scriptures and then in each subsequent century. (i.e. the Didache, St. Irenaeus, Origin, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Augustine, Leo the Great, etc. etc.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Just because we become born again, doesn't mean that we stop seeking to learn about Christ through His doctrine.
Instead, our hunger and thirst for understanding grows, not diminishes. To gain that understanding we need ears that can hear and eyes that can see, spiritually speaking. We are instructed to seek, but it is actually God who is moving within us to do of His good pleasure

Yes Roger. Agreed.
But we are not speaking about continual learning....
we are directing our attention to soteriology.....the process of how a person becomes saved.

If God instructs us to seek....
Then we must seek to find God.

God reveals Himself to all.
We must reply.

Romans 1:19-20
Through God's creation, He has revealed Himself to all of mankind.
When we stand before Him in judgment, we will have no excuse if we are lost and doomed because God gave us a chance,,,,through His revelation of Himself to us through His creation.

This also works the opposite way:
If God reveals Himself to us, and He does to everyone on earth, in one way or another, and we reply YES to Him, then we freely chose to reply YES...
or the revelation would not have been necessary.

Romans 1:19-20
18But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.i
19They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.
20For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.


Acts 16:31
Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.....
Believe is a command word....
This is an instruction on how to be saved.

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Let the one who is thirsty come....this is an invitation.
Let the one who DESIRES TAKE the water of Life....
This shows free will since one is following their desire to take the water of life.

Nowhere in the N.T. can one find compatible free will.
It's just not there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would this statement need clarification?
“Someone wrote saying that we are not saved if we don't keep all of God's commandments.”

If you truly believe that, then you need to repent and believe the Gospel.

Mark 1:15 KJV
[15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What?

You believe you could not obey God and still be saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

I’ve posted this before but I’ll repeat it here…


Throughout salvation history, God has consistently sought to extract a confession from man. For example, in the beginning, we read "Who told you that you were naked?" Or, "Where is your brother Abel?" I could go on and on throughout the pages of Scripture.

History culminates when God actually enters into his creation by becoming Man in the person of Jesus Christ. After His death and resurrection, on the evening of Easter, our Blessed Lord appeared to the Apostles and breathes on them. (This is significant itself given it is only the second time in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man - the first being when He breathed life into Adam.) When Jesus breathes on them, He imparts on them the Holy Ghost, and then gives them the authority to forgive sins. St. John records the event as follows...

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'” (John 20:19-23)

This is where the Christian practice of confession became a sacrament. In order for the Apostles (and their successors) to be able to forgive sins, they must first be told the sins. Hence confession, by definition, must be auricular. It has been this way from the beginning of the Church. We see this in practice in Acts when the Ephesians confess their sins to Paul in Acts 19:18. You mentioned St. Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, and to the faithful there the Apostle tells them he is charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." ( 2 Col 5:18) St. James instructs the faithful to make a confession (5:16) and St. John tells us if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven. (1 John 1:9)

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the very first thing prodigal son does upon returning to the bosom of the Father is he makes a confession. (cf. Luke 15:21) Jesus is telling us this for a reason.

Confession was practiced immediately from the Church's infancy, as testified to in the Scriptures and then in each subsequent century. (i.e. the Didache, St. Irenaeus, Origin, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Augustine, Leo the Great, etc. etc.)

The problem is...to whom do we confess?
Directly to God? Or to an authority that states that our sins are absolved....?
In either case it's God forgiving the sin.

The didache states that we are to confess our sins at the time of the Eucharist.
It doesn't say how.....but it is in a church setting.

James states that we are to confess our sins to one another....
This probably means to ask forgiveness for an offense...

Clement of Rome stated that we should confess our sins to God.

I'm not really happy to debate this since I respect those that consider confession necessary....
the Orthodox also have the choice to confess to a priest of theirs or directly to God...

This is all I'm willing to say....I can tell you have some office in the CC from your knowledge, so I'll just say that
I find it rather silly that for some really serious sin, a person was required to go to their Bishop...which this Pope has
changed and now any priest can forgive any sin. I agree with this and never understood why the other way should even
be necessary.

I'll also say that if a priest knows a person, he will know if they are truly sorry for their sin.
If a priest does NOT know a person, there is no real way of knowing if they are repentant and so the entire sacrament
becomes a farce. Some go to sanctuaries for confession because they feel more free to speak to the priest there rather than one they know.
I find the whole procedure unfounded through scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

IMHO there is no reason to have a formal confession of sins to a priest (or whomever). I confess my sins to God, my father -- "Forgive me Father for I have sinned" -- and if I have wronged some person then I make amends to them.

Humbling one's self and asking for forgiveness from someone who you haven't wronged seems to me to be madness.

But then why did Jesus breath on the Apostles and give them the authority to forgive sins?
Was it meant only for them?
What do you think Jesus meant by this?

Some believe He meant that before someone could become a member of the church, the Kingdom of God, he would have to confess any sins in order to become a member of the Body of Christ.

This worked well at the beginning when it was believed that a person would stop sinning after they were baptized.

Alas, the sinning did not stop and so something had to be done for sins AFTER baptism.
This was some form of confession - which then has a long history and change along the way to what we have today.

 

[crossnote]

What?

You believe you could not obey God and still be saved?

The statement was..."we are not saved if we don't keep all of God's commandments.”.
The very reason I am saved is because I have a Savior who gave His righteousness/life for my unrighteousness/death.
Nice try though, putting your little spin on the issue.