Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[GodsGrace]

The statement was..."we are not saved if we don't keep all of God's commandments.”.
The very reason I am saved is because I have a Savior who gave His righteousness/life for my unrighteousness/death.
Nice try though, putting your little spin on the issue.

It wasn't my spin.
It sounds to me like YOU think you could go on sinning and still be saved.
That is the spin I'm referring to.

And, yes, we are not kept saved if we do not obey all of God's commandments.
How is that a spin?

John 14:21
21Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

 

[crossnote]

It wasn't my spin.
It sounds to me like YOU think you could go on sinning and still be saved.
That is the spin I'm referring to.

Another spin. I never said anything about that matter. Just an assumption on your part.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another spin. I never said anything about that matter. Just an assumption on your part.

I guess you find it easier not to reply
instead of replying to the necessity of OBEYING GOD....
as I posted John 14:21

Jesus doesn't make it easy, does He?
One cannot go on sinning and call himself a Christian.

 

[Walpole]

The problem is...to whom do we confess?
Directly to God? Or to an authority that states that our sins are absolved....?
In either case it's God forgiving the sin.

The didache states that we are to confess our sins at the time of the Eucharist.
It doesn't say how.....but it is in a church setting.

James states that we are to confess our sins to one another....
This probably means to ask forgiveness for an offense...

Clement of Rome stated that we should confess our sins to God.

I'm not really happy to debate this since I respect those that consider confession necessary....
the Orthodox also have the choice to confess to a priest of theirs or directly to God...

This is all I'm willing to say....I can tell you have some office in the CC from your knowledge, so I'll just say that
I find it rather silly that for some really serious sin, a person was required to go to their Bishop...which this Pope has
changed and now any priest can forgive any sin. I agree with this and never understood why the other way should even
be necessary.

I'll also say that if a priest knows a person, he will know if they are truly sorry for their sin.
If a priest does NOT know a person, there is no real way of knowing if they are repentant and so the entire sacrament
becomes a farce. Some go to sanctuaries for confession because they feel more free to speak to the priest there rather than one they know.
I find the whole procedure unfounded through scripture.

The minister of the confessor was given to the Apostles. They in turn pass this is ministry on via valid orders through Apostolic succession.

 

[GodsGrace]

The minister of the confessor was given to the Apostles. They in turn pass this is ministry on via valid orders through Apostolic succession.

Of course I've considered this.
The laying on of hands...
Confirmation
Ordination...

 

[Walpole]

IMHO there is no reason to have a formal confession of sins to a priest (or whomever). I confess my sins to God, my father -- "Forgive me Father for I have sinned" -- and if I have wronged some person then I make amends to them.

Humbling one's self and asking for forgiveness from someone who you haven't wronged seems to me to be madness.

There has never been a do-it-yourself relationship with God. Ever. The logical end of this "I have a direct line to God" theology would thus lead to the belief that...

- One can formulate one's own credal statements about Who God Is
- One can pen one's own Scripture
- One can preach one's own sermons
- One can baptize himself
- One can marry himself
- One can ordain himself
- One can anoint himself
- One can forgive his own sins by confessing them to himself
- One can confect one's own Eucharistic sacrifice


This type of theology is not incarnational. Christianity is a religion of revelation, whereby in the beginning God uses man to convey His message. This act of using man to convey His message culminates when God entered into His creation by becoming Man. By virtue of the Incarnation, God now continues to use man to convey not only His message, but now His grace via His Church.

 

[GodsGrace]

There has never been a do-it-yourself relationship with God. Ever. The logical end of this "I have a direct line to God" theology would thus lead to the belief that...

- One can formulate one's own credal statements about Who God Is
- One can pen one's own Scripture
- One can preach one's own sermons
- One can baptize himself
- One can marry himself
- One can ordain himself
- One can anoint himself
- One can forgive his own sins by confessing them to himself
- One can confect one's own Eucharistic sacrifice


This type of theology is not incarnational. Christianity is a religion of revelation, whereby in the beginning God uses man to convey His message. This act of using man to convey His message culminates when God entered into His creation by becoming Man. By virtue of the Incarnation, God now continues to use man to convey not only His message, but now His grace via His Church.

Very much agree....
But just one question:
Can God gift to us His grace ONLY through His church?
(small c - the institution, which is what I THINK you meant)
must sign off, will read tomorrow....

 

[JLB]

No it can't, but neither can it be heard without spiritual ears - hearing and seeing that has been blessed by God - both being necessary. In the below, their eyes and ears had been blessed to be able to spiritually see and hear. not all were.
If they aren't, preaching until the end of time will make no difference.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

We have been through this before.


You are again, trying to take a passage of scripture out of context, which the context is Jesus speaking to and teaching His disciples, preparing them for the work that they will be sent to do.


And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Matthew 13:10-13


The Point:

• Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

“Them” here in verse 13, does not refer to everyone else in the world, but a specific group that Jesus is referring to; primarily the Pharisee’s and Sadducees.


If them referred to everyone other than the disciples, then only the disciples would be saved.



Do you understand that the Jew’s which includes the Pharisee’s were referred to as the elect?





JLB

 

[Walpole]

Very much agree....
But just one question:
Can God gift to us His grace ONLY through His church?
(small c - the institution, which is what I THINK you meant)
must sign off, will read tomorrow....

The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. Hence the Church is the ordinary means by which man has communion with God.

 

[rogerg]

We have been through this before.

Yes, we have, and I posted the below to you then too. This is it for me

[Mat 13:34-35 KJV]
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

"unto you": all of His disciples - any follower of Christ
"others": all those not of His disciples

 

[jaybo]

There has never been a do-it-yourself relationship with God. Ever. The logical end of this "I have a direct line to God" theology would thus lead to the belief that...

- One can formulate one's own credal statements about Who God Is
- One can pen one's own Scripture
- One can preach one's own sermons
- One can baptize himself
- One can marry himself
- One can ordain himself
- One can anoint himself
- One can forgive his own sins by confessing them to himself
- One can confect one's own Eucharistic sacrifice


This type of theology is not incarnational. Christianity is a religion of revelation, whereby in the beginning God uses man to convey His message. This act of using man to convey His message culminates when God entered into His creation by becoming Man. By virtue of the Incarnation, God now continues to use man to convey not only His message, but now His grace via His Church.

You can believe whatever you want but so can I. I disagree with your reductio ad absurdem that one must have an intermediary between one's self and God.

What do you think that being in Christ means?

 

[crossnote]

I guess you find it easier not to reply
instead of replying to the necessity of OBEYING GOD....
as I posted John 14:21

Jesus doesn't make it easy, does He?
One cannot go on sinning and call himself a Christian.

I don't normally reply to those who construct a false scenario, assume I fit their mold and then accuse me for not complying.
Yes, we are to obey God, and walking by faith is 100x tougher than thinking one is obeying the law...

Galatians 2:19-20 (KJV) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[JLB]

Yes, we have, and I posted the below to you then too. This is it for me

[Mat 13:34-35 KJV]
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

"unto you": all of His disciples - any follower of Christ
"others": all those not of His disciples

Sorry but Jesus is contextually speaking directly to a specific group of people, His disciples whom He personally trained.


The rest of the people He spoke in parables.


Here are the questions that remain unanswered:

Can you now answer them?

• Does this mean that the people He spoke to in parables would never be saved?

• Does this mean the ones He had given to know the mysteries, are automatically saved?

JLB

 

[Walpole]

You can believe whatever you want but so can I. I disagree with your reductio ad absurdem that one must have an intermediary between one's self and God.

What do you think that being in Christ means?

Salvation history is about God using intermediaries. From prophets to priests, God has always used man to convey His message. Creation is the theater of God's grace, which culminates in His ultimate act of using man by His becoming one. There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.

The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. If you have a "direct line to God", you don't need the Church and therefore Jesus instituting one was superfluous.

 

[rogerg]

• Does this mean that the people He spoke to in parables would never be saved?

No I don't mean that. God saves whom He wants when He wants - just as with Saul

Does this mean the ones He had given to know the mysteries, are automatically saved?

Not sure what you mean by automatically? But the ones he had already given to know the mysteries at that particular moment, were saved/born again. Again, "to know", is intended to know at the spiritual level of understanding and encompasses all those who would ever become His disciples, past, present, future, everywhere

 

[Fastfredy0]

There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.

Premise 1: The apostles spoke to Christ
Premise 2: There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God.
Conclusion: Christ is not God.

 

[rogerg]

Christ was God. Don't know what he meant by that. I would totally disagree with him. Saul spoke to God upon his salvation, John spoke to God in The Revelation, didn't they?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Christ was God. Don't know what he meant by that. I would totally disagree with him. Saul spoke to God upon his salvation, John spoke to God in The Revelation, didn't they?

They did in the version of the Bible I read. *giggles*

 

[Walpole]

Premise 1: The apostles spoke to Christ
Premise 2: There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God.
Conclusion: Christ is not God.

The record / testimony you have of the Apostles speaking to Christ itself came via intermediaries. Ergo, your conclusion is false.

The fact that there exist Scripture is itself demonstrative of God using intermediaries to convey His message to you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The record / testimony you have of the Apostles speaking to Christ itself came via intermediaries. Ergo, your conclusion is false.

??????????????????? So, the apostles didn't really talk to God/Christ ???? WOW!