Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[JLB]

You assume that it is within man's power to believe. Col 2:14 is part of that same Gospel

I believe it is by the power that is present in the preaching of the Gospel; the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace that empowers or enables us to believe and obey the Gospel.


That is what grace is; the Spirit of grace, the Holy Spirit working upon each person who is hearing the Gospel being preached by someone sent by God.

By grace we are saved, through faith.

The combination of the Holy Spirit, and the person who hears the Gospel, by which they are enabled or empowered to obey the word of faith.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23






JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Because, in order to be able to truly believe/understand the Gospel one has to first be born again, not the reverse. You have agreed in the past that God is the Savior, that means everything needed for salvation had to be accomplished by Him or the title of Savior couldn't have been bestowed upon Him. To say otherwise is to try to increase man's contribution while diminishing Christ's. We must first receive the Holy Ghost in order to be taught of Him of things spiritual.

Please, consider these verses carefully

[1Co 2:5 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


But no one can believe unless it is first given to them per 1 Co2:14 above. To know the "things of God", we first must have received "the spirit which is of God" per 1 Co 2:12.


I didn't twist your words, I simply quoted you back to you so you could hear it again. If it
is twisted, it is because your understanding is incorrect. How could I have misrepresented if
I only quoted what you said - what I quoted was stand-alone and complete within itself ? Did I add anything to it or change it ?


You assume that it is within man's power to believe. Col 2:14 is part of that same Gospel
and it tells us differently - that that belief must be spiritually discerned, but it cannot be
discerned without first having received the Holy Spirit who guides our discernment. Without the Holy Spirit we are
natural man. Belief (faith) is the fruit of the Spirit. To have the Holy Spirit, we first have
to have been born again which only God can make happen

Roger,
I have read all of the above verses that you've posted.

They state the following:

1. 1 Co 2:5 Paul did not use fancy words to preach, but his words were very simple and plain...Paul relied on the power of the Holy Spirit.

2. 1 Co 2:12 We do not have the spirit of the world...but the spirit of God.

3. 1 Co 2:13 The Apostle used words given to him by the spirit to explain spiritual truths. (spiritual truths in spiritual language).

4. 1 Co 2:14 Persons that are not spiritual cannot receive truths of God because it sounds like foolishness to them. (try speaking to an atheist).
Only spiritual persons can understand what the Holy Spirit means.

THEN you state:
that belief must be spiritually discerned, but it cannot be
discerned without first having received the Holy Spirit who guides our discernment. Without the Holy Spirit we are
natural man. Belief (faith) is the fruit of the Spirit. To have the Holy Spirit, we first have
to have been born again which only God can make happen.


Could you please explain HOW the above verses of yours state that one must be born again FIRST and then faith is given.....
It's just not there.

Ephesians 2:8
For we are SAVED BY GRACE....
through FAITH.

We are saved through faith.

Faith saves us.

Not the other way around.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think we're close but to me the only forgiveness with eternal significance that Judas required and we require, and which can only be given and received as a gift, is one that repents us from trust in our own works to change to a complete trust/faith in Christ's works. Judas did not/could not exhibit this kind of repentance because he wasn't forgiven by God in the first place. In other words, I believe true repentance can only come about by God's forgiveness and renewal, not the reverse.

[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[Act 5:31 KJV]
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
** Note : Spiritual Israel, not the nation of Israel

IMO I would think Judas would have known about God's commands and about repentance before and after walking with Christ and heard Him teaching about repentance and God's mercy and grace given to all who will come to Him. Unfortunately like so many, greed became the lust of his heart and blinded him from the love of God. Yes, he felt remorse, but through his emotions he hung himself instead of turning back to God.

 

[for_his_glory]

I stumbled across this passage of scripture today and it made me think of this thread.


Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food [h]in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.../

It's talking about, those who obey and those who do not obey.
So would some be predestined to disobey?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26. All that have turned away from God, and especially those who come against His own is what God had already predestined to come against them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Unwilling because you misinterpret the Bible. You just don't grasp God's salvation and try to turn it into a work dependent upon man.



Wow, really? The below is YOUR post, not mine:

"The way unsaved people who are blind receive light and salvation is by the preaching of the Gospel."

So have you now changed your belief in that proposition? Whether you realize it or not, what you've actually said above is that everyone who hears the Gospel preached, becomes saved, period. Please, just read your own statement carefully.

You really need to take your time reading other's post as JLB said nothing of the sort of what you are accusing him of saying. Please do not accuse others of misinterpreting the Bible, but try to reconcile your indifferences like we all are to be doing according to the ToS 1.1.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'd say that, at the point in time of your post, none of the Apostles really understood who Jesus was. Maybe Peter and John.

It wouldn't be until the day of Pentecost when the disciples were indwelled with the Holy Spirit an Jesus after His resurrection came to them that they had their Spiritual eyes and ears opened to understand who Jesus was/is.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sola Scriptura is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that posits the Christian scriptures as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice. (Google)

This is not a doctrine of Protestant Christians, but all who are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. What we read and studying in the Bible are the Doctrines of Christ for what God had the prophets and Apostles to write being the infallible word of God without error.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Sola Scriptura is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that posits the Christian scriptures as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice. (Google)

This is not a doctrine of Protestant Christians

What are other infallible source(s) of authority for Protestant Christian faith and practice??

 

[for_his_glory]

Is obeying the Lord required for salvation? The genuine Christian believes what Scripture says concerning the natural heart, namely, that it is "deceitful above all things" (Jeremiah 17:9),and the surest proof that he does believe this solemn fact is that he is deeply concerned lest "a deceived heart hath turned him aside" (Isaiah 44:20), and caused him to believe that all is well with his soul, when in reality he is yet "in the gall of bitterness, and the bond of iniquity." He believes what God’s Word says about Satan, the great deluder, and trembles lest, after all, the Devil has beguiled him with a false peace. Such a possibility, such a likelihood, occasions him much exercise of soul. Like David of old (and every other genuine saint), he "communes with his own heart" (Psalm 4:4), and his "spirit (makes) diligent search"(Psalm 77:6). He turns to the light of Holy Writ, anxious to have his character and conduct scrutinized by the same, desiring to have his deeds made manifest, as to whether they proceed from self-love or real love to God. A.W. Pink – Studies on Saving Faith​

The question at hand is is about obedience to God needed for salvation. To answer the question properly one must define the source of the Lord's instructions that are to be obey. Is a man's salvation assured if he follows the instructions of God as found in the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura) or is man's salvation dependent on other instructions from God: tradition, the apocrypha, certain men, other sources. Yes, one must obey God for salvation which is the effect of conversion, but how do you define the contents of obedience. If you believe the Bible you believe that many are deceived, but which source(s) of God instructions are false and do they lead to destruction?
"Study to show thyself approved (obedient)" ... but study who, what. We know whom is the source of truth, but where is His truth to be found? Many are deceived.

Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
Deu 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. (Read vs. 1-14)

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: (read vs. 15-68)


1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

These are the commandments of God that we are to keep and walk in obedience to them. Prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

These are the commandments of God that we are to keep and walk in obedience to them.

True enough ... it is a partial list. What is the source of all of God's instructions so one can be obedient. This is what I was addressing.

 

[jaybo]

True enough ... it is a partial list. What is the source of all of God's instructions so one can be obedient. This is what I was addressing.

The source of all God's instructions is the Holy Spirit, given to Christians to guide our thoughts, emotions, and behavior.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The source of all God's instructions is the Holy Spirit, given to Christians to guide our thoughts, emotions, and behavior.

Agreed. And what method(s) has the Holy Spirit given to Christians to guide our thoughts, emotions, and behavior? ... and what do you use to authenticate your answer?

 

[for_his_glory]

What are other infallible source(s) of authority for Protestant Christian faith and practice??

It doesn't matter what others use as only God's word is infallible. It doesn't have anything to do with Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, JW, Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Baptist, Calvinism, Dispensationalism, hyper-grace and so on and so as there are over 5000 different religions in the world each with their own traditional doctrines. How do we know what is truth or error?

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[for_his_glory]

True enough ... it is a partial list. What is the source of all of God's instructions so one can be obedient. This is what I was addressing.

And that is what I answered. That of what I posted are part of the 613 Levitical laws and it is those parts that we are to follow in obedience to God's command as the greatest is love.

 

[jaybo]

Agreed. And what method(s) has the Holy Spirit given to Christians to guide our thoughts, emotions, and behavior? ... and what do you use to authenticate your answer?

I can't answer the first question, as it's very complex. All I can say is that by praying and reading scripture I am guided by an "inner voice".

The most reliable authentications are 1) if it agrees with the main meanings of Scripture and 2) speaking and praying in tongues.

 

[jaybo]

And that is what I answered. That of what I posted are part of the 613 Levitical laws and it is those parts that we are to follow in obedience to God's command as the greatest is love.

You follow the OT law or you follow Christ. It's a binary decision; the two don't mix.

 

[for_his_glory]

You follow the OT law or you follow Christ. It's a binary decision; the two don't mix.

To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


​

 

[jaybo]

To all those who think that all the laws have been fulfilled in Christ you are very wrong as below are the laws that are written upon our heart and can only be fulfilled when Christ returns and makes an end to sin by throwing it into the lake of fire with that of the beast and the false prophets. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. Someone please show me in scripture where Jesus has fulfilled all the laws, because in Matthew 22:35-40 and Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus does not say that he has already fulfilled all of them, but that love was the greatest of them all.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

Morality in God is His greatest commandment of love as we treat others as we want others to treat us. God is love and wants us to love and treat others as He loves and treats us.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


​

You apparently don't realize that Matthew (and the other Gospels) were written to unbelievers, primarily Jews. Then Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (who will guide us into all truth.

Acts 13:39, "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."

What is it about that statement that you can't/won't understand?

and... "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The question of the thread is about obedience to God. If one cannot define the contents of obedience then one cannot address the thread's question.

What are other infallible source(s) of authority for Protestant Christian faith and practice??

It doesn't matter what others use as only God's word is infallible.

So I can use the Koran? ... The book of Mormon? I believe the source of God's instructions do matter greatly. Thus I posed the question.

It doesn't have anything to do with Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, JW, Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Baptist, Calvinism, Dispensationalism, hyper-grace and so on and so as there are over 5000 different religions in the world each with their own traditional doctrines.

Again, my question was: "What are other infallible source(s) of authority for Christian faith and practice??" So, your list of what is not a source of God's instructions is irrelevant.

How do we know what is truth or error?

Yes, that was my question to you.
Your answer, I assume, is 8 verses of the Bible is how we know God's truth or error.

"What are other infallible source(s) of authority for Christian faith and practice??" For me it's the entire Bible.
Tota Scriptura is a way of stating a belief in the inspiration, authority, and completeness of God’s Word, the Bible. Nothing else. The Bible alone.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm with Jaybo. I assume you (for_his_glory) don't try to follow all 613. (some are obsolete IMO)
To eat matzah on the first night of Passover
To rest on Rosh Hashanah
Not to eat the flesh of unclean beasts
yahda, yahda

Of course not as some were written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. The rest are God's moral laws we are to be obedient to as in the list I gave. It all pertains in how we conduct ourselves within them.