Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[rogerg]

We know by reading the scriptures that Judas felt remorse as he tried to give the money back. No one knows for sure if he repented or not.

He repented of that particular act, but it didn't matter. Please see what I posted to JLB (immediately above)
Why do you think Jesus said this about him?
[Mar 14:21 KJV]
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

 

[JLB]

Because Judas was foretold in Jeremiah that he would be the one to betray Jesus
This fulfilled the prophecy - it had to happen exactly this way.
[Mat 26:14 - 15 KJV]
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said [unto them], What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
[Mat 27:3, 9 KJV]
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, ...
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Judas informed where Jesus would be and when. Why do you think he returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests?

Yes Judas became a guide for those who arrested Jesus.

He became a traitor. Became indicates he was the one thing and then made a choice to be the other.

God foresaw this before time began and foretold of it through His prophets.


Judas choose to respond to his calling, and he followed the Lord until he choose to betray Jesus, in which he became a traitor.


Never the less, Judas was destined for greatness, but sold out for 30 pieces of silver.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Betraying Jesus isn't usually considered following Him but any standard I know of.

Sorry but Judas followed Jesus as His disciple, because he heard and obeyed His call, for three and a half years, and was promoted to an Apostle, being sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4



Judas started out well, but ended up becoming lost.


The only difference between Judas and Peter was, Peter repented and returned to the Lord and was restored.


Judas hung himself.



If Judas would have followed the instructions of Jesus in the story of the prodigal son, he could have been restored.



However, God foresaw it all from the beginning.






JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first.

How does any of that compare to the first true church of Christ that was established by Christ through God's Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost?

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

How can someone who worships idols and keep pagan traditions keep them self unspotted from the world?

 

[rogerg]

Sorry but Judas followed Jesus as His disciple, because he heard and obeyed His call, for three and a half years, and was promoted to an Apostle, being sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost.

what do these mean?

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. ...

[Psa 69:27-28 KJV]
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[for_his_glory]

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the one true church doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form.

The Protestant Reformation was followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.

Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament, Acts chapter 2; 11:19-30. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.


maryourhelp.org / 95 catechism questions & answers

what the catechism teaches


The Roman Rite is the main liturgical rite of the Latin or Western Church, the largest of the sui iuris particular Churches that make up the Catholic Church. It developed in the Latin language in the city of Rome and while distinct Latin liturgical ritres such as the Ambrosian Riteremain, the Roman Rite has over time been adopted almost everywhere in the Western Church.

The Sui iuris is a Latin phrase that literally means one's own rite. It is used in both civil law and canon law by the Catholic Church as in the Catholic Code of Canons of the Eastern Church's to denote the autonomous church's in Catholic communion.

 

[JLB]

what do these mean?

It means we must endure to the end to be saved.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13


In order to receive the salvation of our soul at the end of our faith, we must continue to endure various trials, and the testing of our faith, so that we will finish our race.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9


It means we must continue steadfast in the faith and not be moved away from the faith; from the hope of the Gospel.



And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23








JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

He repented of that particular act, but it didn't matter. Please see what I posted to JLB (immediately above)
Why do you think Jesus said this about him?
[Mar 14:21 KJV]
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

What it boils down to is that Jesus called (hand picked) Judas like the other eleven and they were His sheep. I believe Jesus foreknew before the foundation of the world all that was going to happen to Him and by the hands of the one who would betray Him and those who crucified Him. Because of the sin of greed Judas fell from obedience of God's commands as money became his god allowing himself to be separated and lost from his Shepherd by breaking fellowship with Him. Judas would have had no idea that Jesus would be condemned and brutally beaten by Roman law and be crucified as a common prisoner. Judas repented himself, but never asked God for forgiveness. Instead he felt so much remorse he hung himself.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

How many go to church, any church, every week and betray Jesus crucifying Him over and over because they willingly sin not walking in obedience to God's commands as they walk in their own lusts committing idolatry as Judas did.

 

[Hopeful]

We know by reading the scriptures that Judas felt remorse as he tried to give the money back. No one knows for sure if he repented or not.

I think his suicide rules out that possibility.
One sin shows there was no repentance from sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=reminder]
I feel I need to reel these discussions back to the OP as it's not about who or what the true Church of Christ is, it's about "is obeying the Lord and His commandments required for salvation". It's getting out of hand with the discussions between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Church as I am as guilty as the rest.

There will be no more replies about the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Church as they will be deleted. If you want to finish your replies to each other on this please do it in a private PM.
[/ACMP]

 

[JLB]

He repented of that particular act, but it didn't matter.

Judas never repented.


He may have felt guilty, but feeling guilty does not equal repentance.


By your statement, I suspect you may not understand what repent entails.




JLB

 

[rogerg]

Judas never repented.


He may have felt guilty, but feeling guilty does not equal repentance.


By your statement, I suspect you may not understand what repent entails.

What does this mean?

[Mat 27:3 KJV] 3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

 

[jaybo]

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the one true church doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form.

The Protestant Reformation was followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.

Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament, Acts chapter 2; 11:19-30. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.


maryourhelp.org / 95 catechism questions & answers

what the catechism teaches


The Roman Rite is the main liturgical rite of the Latin or Western Church, the largest of the sui iuris particular Churches that make up the Catholic Church. It developed in the Latin language in the city of Rome and while distinct Latin liturgical ritres such as the Ambrosian Riteremain, the Roman Rite has over time been adopted almost everywhere in the Western Church.

The Sui iuris is a Latin phrase that literally means one's own rite. It is used in both civil law and canon law by the Catholic Church as in the Catholic Code of Canons of the Eastern Church's to denote the autonomous church's in Catholic communion.

This should be required reading for all who want to know the truth about the origins of the church and the errors of Catholicism.

 

[rogerg]

Because of the sin of greed Judas fell from obedience of God's commands as money became his god allowing himself to be separated and lost from his Shepherd by breaking fellowship with Him

Whether or when Judas came to a realization regarding what he really was, I don't know.
Nevertheless, I do know that Jesus had this to say about him:
[Jhn 6:70 KJV] 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

If God Himself called Judas a devil, it wasn't that he'd just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
It was that Judas was a soldier in good standing in Satan's army (my phrase)

 

[for_his_glory]

Whether or when Judas came to a realization regarding what he really was, I don't know.
Nevertheless, I do know that Jesus had this to say about him:
[Jhn 6:70 KJV] 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

If God Himself called Judas a devil, it wasn't that he'd just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
It was that Judas was a soldier in good standing in Satan's army (my phrase)

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

Judas, even though he was one of the twelve never truly was in his heart. It's like all those who play church, but yet are none of God's own. Judas was actually used of God because he had an evil heart as he walked in disobedience to God's commands as he was used to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 53.

 

[rogerg]

Judas, even though he was one of the twelve never truly was in his heart. It's like all those who play church, but yet are none of God's own. Judas was actually used of God because he had an evil heart as he walked in disobedience to God's commands as he was used to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 53.

Just to clarify my prior reply to JLB about the repentance made by Judas. IMHO, I believe Judas's repentance was exclusively limited to his betrayal of Jesus - that because of his action, Jesus was condemned (and this is a subtle but significant distinction), I don't believe that repentance was by/from the fruit of the Spirit; that is, a repentance given by the Holy Spirit through becoming born again. That kind of repentance is only manifested in an awareness/realization one receives as a gift from the Spirit that Jesus alone is Savior and God along with faith in Him. Had that kind of repentance been demonstrated by him, which it doesn't appear it was, it would have indicated that his sin had been forgiven him. However, that was not the case so his sin remained.

 

[for_his_glory]

Just to clarify my prior reply to JLB about the repentance made by Judas. IMHO, I believe Judas's repentance was exclusively limited to his betrayal of Jesus - that because of his action, Jesus was condemned (and this is a subtle but significant distinction), I don't believe that repentance was by/from the fruit of the Spirit; that is, a repentance given by the Holy Spirit through becoming born again. That kind of repentance is only manifested in an awareness/realization one receives as a gift from the Spirit that Jesus alone is Savior and God along with faith in Him. Had that kind of repentance been demonstrated by him, which it doesn't appear it was, it would have indicated that his sin had been forgiven him. However, that was not the case so his sin remained.

It repented Judas to his core as he had no clue what was about to happen to Jesus by his betrayal. He probably would have witnessed Jesus trial and then being condemned to death. Considering he hung himself shows significantly that of his remorse, but I really do not think he ever asked for forgiveness.

 

[JLB]

What does this mean?

[Mat 27:3 KJV] 3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Matthew 27:3

Feeling the guilt of our sin is a step in the right direction but falls short of what is required.

Did Judas return to Jesus for forgiveness and restoration?

No. He gave back the blood money to the chief priests.


Jesus teaches how we receive forgiveness and restoration in the story of the prodigal son.



JLB

 

[rogerg]

It repented Judas to his core as he had no clue what was about to happen to Jesus by his betrayal. He probably would have witnessed Jesus trial and then being condemned to death. Considering he hung himself shows significantly that of his remorse, but I really do not think he ever asked for forgiveness.

I think we're close but to me the only forgiveness with eternal significance that Judas required and we require, and which can only be given and received as a gift, is one that repents us from trust in our own works to change to a complete trust/faith in Christ's works. Judas did not/could not exhibit this kind of repentance because he wasn't forgiven by God in the first place. In other words, I believe true repentance can only come about by God's forgiveness and renewal, not the reverse.

[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[Act 5:31 KJV]
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
** Note : Spiritual Israel, not the nation of Israel

 

[Edward]

I stumbled across this passage of scripture today and it made me think of this thread.


Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food [h]in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.../

It's talking about, those who obey and those who do not obey.
So would some be predestined to disobey?