Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[rogerg]

IMO I would think Judas would have known about God's commands and about repentance before and after walking with Christ and heard Him teaching about repentance and God's mercy and grace given to all who will come to Him. Unfortunately like so many, greed became the lust of his heart and blinded him from the love of God. Yes, he felt remorse, but through his emotions he hung himself instead of turning back to God.

That's why I posted the following:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Regardless of whether or not we think it reasonable that someone, based solely upon the factors of position or proximity, to automatically have spiritual wisdom, we see that unless first becoming born again, we will be devoid of it, and will therefore be unable to truly comprehend it. To have spiritual wisdom/discernment, one must have been given the Holy Spirit. It is exclusively through Him that spiritual wisdom is received. Until and unless that occurs, spiritual discernment and faith aren't possible for natural man to have or obtain.
I realize that, in a sense, this may be counter-intuitive since we usually learn through reading, observing or being taught by man. However, as pertaining to the spiritual realm, these methods do not apply,
To illustrate this, could there have been anything more demonstrative of Judas's spiritual wisdom and condition than for him to have betrayed Jesus Christ?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Eph 5:8-10 KJV]
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

(As with all attributes which the true believer inherits/manifests, true repentance is also of the Holy Spirit)

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

 

[rogerg]

Of course not as some were written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite.

Disagree:

[Heb 8:5-6 KJV]
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

"the example and shadow of heavenly things": The OT, its Temple, sacrifices, festivals, ETC were a shadow of the heavenly - but they were not intended by God to be the true. Instead, their purpose was as a symbolic earthly representation for the edification of EVERYONE (not only for the Jews), so as to demonstrate what promises the new covenant would contain, which promises were achieved solely by Christ.

 

[Walpole]

How does any of that compare to the first true church of Christ that was established by Christ through God's Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost?

The Catholic bishops, writings, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. are the members of the first true Church of Christ established by Him. That is the point. No other church has a pedigree going all the way back to Christ and the Apostles.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Amen

How can someone who worships idols and keep pagan traditions keep them self unspotted from the world?

If someone is worshiping idols and participating in paganism, then they would be be unspotted. (They would be violating the first commandment.)

 

[Walpole]

Repost but worth repeating...

It is important to note that neither the Gospels, Pauline epistles, nor the catholic epistles address the issue of a post-Apostolic Church. Thus any appeal strictly to the Scriptures to see how the post-Apostolic Church functioned is simply not possible. We can, however, turn to the Scriptures to see how the structure of the Apostolic Church functioned, as well as how the Apostles planned for its eventual continuation apart from them.

The Gospels, epistles and personal correspondences which would later be compiled into what we call the New Testament carried weight amongst the early Church because they were tied to the person of an Apostle, which in turn led back to Christ Himself. We see the importance of the personage of the Apostles and a physical pedigree descending from them by the fact that they physically ordained men, “laying on hands,” in order to seal their word and mission to successors as authoritatively connected to them, and through them, back to Christ Himself. The faith does not and never has existed in a vacuum, isolated as it were and cut off from its roots. The very fact that the Scriptures record the ordaining of men to continue their work is indicative of a hierarchical and institutional model, an episcopal polity, otherwise less any man would be free to independently do the mission entrusted to the Apostles by Christ. We know from history that this was not the case, except for a sect which would arise in the post-Apostolic era that bears a remarkable similarity to the Protestant position on this topic: That of the Gnostics.

The Protestant anti-institutional model is similar to the Gnostics, who also rejected the concept of physical and individual lineages as being necessary. The Gnostics beat the Protestants to the punch so to speak and were the first to advocate the concept of pneumatological / “invisible churches.” In order to combat this growing heretical sect, the post-Apostolic Church used their trump card: Appealing to their physical connection from Christ to themselves in order to demonstrate their faith as being the true representative of orthodox Christianity and thus as having valid orders. In other words, the faith can never be isolated and maintained apart from true Apostolic succession. Anything not part of this vine was the simplest litmus test for what was not authentic Christianity. The early Church could demonstrate this empirically, by simply pointing to the sees where the Apostles themselves had been active and who in turn chose men to succeed them in their work by the “laying on hands.” These sees became the reference points for orthodoxy and oversight (later dioceses) for the true faith and for valid orders to perpetuate the teaching and sanctifying via the sacraments which Christ instructed to continue.

This is why the presence of the bishop is essential to define the Church itself. For there is no Church if there is no valid bishop presiding over her.


Acts 20:28 —> “Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”


The Church’s first ecumenical Council, that of Nicea, which defined and defended the core dogma upon which the Christian faith is based, the Trinity, also instituted safeguards of Apostolic succession. In Canon 4 of this great Council, the Fathers prescribe consecration procedures to ensure valid succession. This is still practiced today in the Catholic Church.

 

[Walpole]

Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.​

The only ones in heaven are God, Jesus and the host of heaven being the angels God created. Notice those verses say "Praise the Lord all his heavenly host (Angels). You His servants are all that are here on earth who do His will.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Matthew 17:1-9 ---> the Transfiguration of our Blessed Lord on Mt. Tabor...

"And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.' He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.' When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, 'Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.'”

Clearly Moses and Elijah returned.

No one but Jesus can make intercession for us before God.

Everyone that has ever died are still in their graves waiting for the resurrection when Christ returns on the last day. They who are Christ own will pass from physical death to life eternal with the Father.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of the SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a concept foreign to Christianity.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Rev 5:8
The golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (all that are Christ own are called saints in the scriptures) are everyone who has ever prayed to God as their prayers are as sweet odor to God as we give Him the sacrifice of praise, Psalms 141:2

Once again...
Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition

St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

If you are going to refute the Christian doctrine of the Communion of Saints, you will need to logically explain this ---> If all prayers go directly to God, why are angels and saints bringing them (prayers) to Him (God)? (cf. Rev. 5:8)

 

[jaybo]

Matthew 17:1-9 ---> the Transfiguration of our Blessed Lord on Mt. Tabor...

"And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.' He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.' When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, 'Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.'”

Clearly Moses and Elijah returned.



Soul sleep is a doctrine of the SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a concept foreign to Christianity.


Once again...
Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition

St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

If you are going to refute the Christian doctrine of the Communion of Saints, you will need to logically explain this ---> If all prayers go directly to God, why are angels and saints bringing them (prayers) to Him (God)? (cf. Rev. 5:8)

So one single verse, out of context, from John's vision is your basis for your post? You can believe any doctrine that you want but that doesn't make it true.

Do you really, truly believe that our prayers don't go to God directly? As children of God (in Christ) we have the assurance that whenever we pray He hears us.

1 John 5:13-14, " And this is the confidence that we have before him: that whenever we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, then we know that we have the requests that we have asked from him.

I deeply, truly feel sorry for you.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's why I posted the following:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Regardless of whether or not we think it reasonable that someone, based solely upon the factors of position or proximity, to automatically have spiritual wisdom, we see that unless first becoming born again, we will be devoid of it, and will therefore be unable to truly comprehend it. To have spiritual wisdom/discernment, one must have been given the Holy Spirit. It is exclusively through Him that spiritual wisdom is received. Until and unless that occurs, spiritual discernment and faith aren't possible for natural man to have or obtain.
I realize that, in a sense, this may be counter-intuitive since we usually learn through reading, observing or being taught by man. However, as pertaining to the spiritual realm, these methods do not apply,
To illustrate this, could there have been anything more demonstrative of Judas's spiritual wisdom and condition than for him to have betrayed Jesus Christ?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Eph 5:8-10 KJV]
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

(As with all attributes which the true believer inherits/manifests, true repentance is also of the Holy Spirit)

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

This was the problem with all the disciples as they had no Spiritual knowledge yet as they followed Christ. They only thought of Him as a Prophet teacher, but not the promised Messiah set before them. It wouldn't be until the day of Pentecost that their Spiritual eyes and ears would be opened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This is the command of Christ:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Upon being Spiritually born again by God's grace through faith we also have the promise of the indwelling of the Holy Spirt that will teach us all truth, Ephesians 2:8-10; John 14:15-31.

It's all about walking in obedience to God's commands after we accept Him as Lord and Savior by faith that is God's grace.

 

[rogerg]

Upon being Spiritually born again by God's grace through faith we also have the promise of the indwelling of the Holy Spirt that will teach us all truth, Ephesians 2:8-10; John 14:15-31.

"through faith": through Christ's faith(fulness), not ours.
Being born again is to become indwelt by the Holy Spirit

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This was the problem with all the disciples as they had no Spiritual knowledge yet as they followed Christ. They only thought of Him as a Prophet teacher, but not the promised Messiah set before them. It wouldn't be until the day of Pentecost that their Spiritual eyes and ears would be opened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Mat 16:15-17 KJV]
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[Jhn 14:16-17 KJV]
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Christ was the Holy Spirit and had imparted the fruits of the Spirit unto them

It's all about walking in obedience to God's commands after we accept Him as Lord and Savior by faith that is God's grace.

"Our acceptance" has nothing to do with it: He chose us individually at the foundation of the world, and from that, we accept Him. We have been given spiritual life and the knowledge of Him. We contribute nothing to receive it , including our obedience - it is a gift.

[Rev 13:7 - 8 KJV]
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 17:1-9 ---> the Transfiguration of our Blessed Lord on Mt. Tabor...

"And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.' He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.' When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, 'Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.'”

Clearly Moses and Elijah returned.



Soul sleep is a doctrine of the SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a concept foreign to Christianity.


Once again...
Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition

St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

If you are going to refute the Christian doctrine of the Communion of Saints, you will need to logically explain this ---> If all prayers go directly to God, why are angels and saints bringing them (prayers) to Him (God)? (cf. Rev. 5:8)

Hi Walpole
I'd like to clarify for for_his_glory and those reading along, that Catholics do pray directly to God or our Lord.

It sometimes may seem by reading these posts that they do not.

I believe in the communion of saints,,,I think we all do, really. Maybe we should have a thread on this..

 

[GodsGrace]

"through faith": through Christ's faith(fulness), not ours.
Being born again is to become indwelt by the Holy Spirit

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


[Mat 16:15-17 KJV]
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[Jhn 14:16-17 KJV]
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Christ was the Holy Spirit and had imparted the fruits of the Spirit unto them


"Our acceptance" has nothing to do with it: He chose us individually at the foundation of the world, and from that, we accept Him. We have been given spiritual life and the knowledge of Him. We contribute nothing to receive it , including our obedience - it is a gift.

[Rev 13:7 - 8 KJV]
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How does Revelation 13:7-8 state that we were chosen from the beginning of the world?

 

[GodsGrace]

It wouldn't be until the day of Pentecost when the disciples were indwelled with the Holy Spirit an Jesus after His resurrection came to them that they had their Spiritual eyes and ears opened to understand who Jesus was/is.

For a full understanding, I do agree.
But what do you think of Peter stating:
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

 

[jaybo]

For a full understanding, I do agree.
But what do you think of Peter stating:
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

God can enlighten anyone (including a donkey!) to speak His words but that doesn't make the person filled with the Holy Spirit. That didn't happen until the Pentecost.

 

[rogerg]

How does Revelation 13:7-8 state that we were chosen from the beginning of the world?

Christ ( who is the Lamb of God) having been slayed, brought forth salvation. Once that slaying occurred, no further
names could be added to the book. Only those in the book become saved. No one in it deserves to be there.

 

[GodsGrace]

God can enlighten anyone (including a donkey!) to speak His words but that doesn't make the person filled with the Holy Spirit. That didn't happen until the Pentecost.

Right.
But to what extent do you think Peter understood who Jesus was?
Do you think he even understood about the resurrection?

 

[jaybo]

Right.
But to what extent do you think Peter understood who Jesus was?
Do you think he even understood about the resurrection?

This is off-topic, so I'll respond once to the questions...

I don't think that Peter had any understanding who Jesus was until he received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. He vacillated back and forth, first proclaiming that Christ is the Messiah, then denying Him three times shortly thereafter. I don't think he understood about the resurrection until Jesus reappeared.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ ( who is the Lamb of God) having been slayed, brought forth salvation. Once that slaying occurred, no further
names could be added to the book. Only those in the book become saved. No one in it deserves to be there.

Revelation 13:7-8
7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

You're adding words to the above verses.
Nowhere does it state that names cannot be added or subtracted.
Nowhere does it state that those listed in the Book of Life do not deserve to be there.

Revelation 3:5
5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


A name in the Book of Life can be erased. (blotted out).

Psalm 69:28
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

 

[rogerg]

Nowhere does it state that names cannot be added or subtracted.

[Mat 25:32-34 KJV]
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

 

[GodsGrace]

[Mat 25:32-34 KJV]
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Yes Roger,
God prepared the way for salvation and the Kingdom from the very beginning.
The sheep WILL BE divided from the goats - sounds like they will not be known and separated until the end.

Because God prepared a way of escape from Adam's sin and also a Kingdom for us (in this case the Kingdom of Heaven) does not mean
that He also picked who would be saved and who would be damned to hell.

Again, I feel that you are adding words to verses and reading your theology into scripture.
And names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

[rogerg]

And names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

This is the last thing I'll say to you about the books:
Each world - this current world, as opposed to the world to come-- has its own book of life,
so two books, not one. Because this world is transient and will end, all those whose name are in
it will have them blotted out (of that book) either when they die or when this world ends; the
names of those written by God into the book of life of the world to come (from the
foundation of the world), because that world is eternal, its book is eternal,
and therefore its names also eternal, so they can never be blotted out from it.

[Psa 69:28 KJV]
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[for_his_glory]

For a full understanding, I do agree.
But what do you think of Peter stating:
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It was God that revealed this to Peter, but yet he was not indwelled with the Holy Spirit at that time. God will always reveal that which He wants us to see even though we might not always understand at first.