Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 17:1-9 ---> the Transfiguration of our Blessed Lord on Mt. Tabor...

"And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.' He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.' When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, 'Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.'”

Clearly Moses and Elijah returned.



Soul sleep is a doctrine of the SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a concept foreign to Christianity.


Once again...
Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition

St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

If you are going to refute the Christian doctrine of the Communion of Saints, you will need to logically explain this ---> If all prayers go directly to God, why are angels and saints bringing them (prayers) to Him (God)? (cf. Rev. 5:8)

I do not believe in the false teaching of soul sleep. I believe what Jesus said in John 3:13 and to go into that about Moses and Elijah would derail this thread. I would like to discuss this further if you would like to start a new thread on this and tag me into it.

Rev 5:8 When Jesus took the book out of the right hand of God the Cherubim, Seraphim and the twenty four heavenly elders in heaven bowed down before Jesus as they had harps of worship and golden vials of incense which are the prayers of the saints.

Our prayers are like incense, or as a sweet smell that reaches up to heaven as we pray to Jesus who is our mediator who intercedes for us before the Father making intercession for us unto God as we pray before Him. The incense are the prayers of the saints (all who are of God).

Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I do believe in the communion of saints as the Spiritual union of the members of the body of Christ being His true Church. It has nothing to do with any types of various religions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Disagree:

[Heb 8:5-6 KJV]
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

"the example and shadow of heavenly things": The OT, its Temple, sacrifices, festivals, ETC were a shadow of the heavenly - but they were not intended by God to be the true. Instead, their purpose was as a symbolic earthly representation for the edification of EVERYONE (not only for the Jews), so as to demonstrate what promises the new covenant would contain, which promises were achieved solely by Christ.

You have every right to disagree, but you are not disagreeing with me, but disagreeing with what Jesus said. It seems like you possibly have never read all 613 laws to see those ones that have been fulfilled by Christ as per the Temple laws and sacrifices. It's the moral laws being a part of the 613 laws/commandments we are still to follow as the greatest one is love that helps us obey the moral laws.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Walpole]

I do not believe in the false teaching of soul sleep. I believe what Jesus said in John 3:13 and to go into that about Moses and Elijah would derail this thread. I would like to discuss this further if you would like to start a new thread on this and tag me into it.

I guess you changed your position because you previously stated, "Everyone that has ever died are still in their graves waiting for the resurrection when Christ returns on the last day." That is the definition of soul sleep.

Rev 5:8 When Jesus took the book out of the right hand of God the Cherubim, Seraphim and the twenty four heavenly elders in heaven bowed down before Jesus as they had harps of worship and golden vials of incense which are the prayers of the saints.

Our prayers are like incense, or as a sweet smell that reaches up to heaven as we pray to Jesus who is our mediator who intercedes for us before the Father making intercession for us unto God as we pray before Him. The incense are the prayers of the saints (all who are of God).

Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Yes, our prayers are like incense and when St. John see's the heavenly liturgy, he describes our prayers being presented to God via an intercessor. Here again is what he sees...

Rev 5:8 ---> "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition


David also invokes the "heavenly hosts", "angels" those "from the heavens" and those "in the heights above."

---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)

I do believe in the communion of saints as the Spiritual union of the members of the body of Christ being His true Church. It has nothing to do with any types of various religions.

The Communion of Saints does not have anything to do with other religions. It is the Christian belief that the members of the Church are united in both heaven and on earth.

 

[rogerg]

You have every right to disagree, but you are not disagreeing with me, but disagreeing with what Jesus said. It seems like you possibly have never read all 613 laws to see those ones that have been fulfilled by Christ as per the Temple laws and sacrifices. It's the moral laws being a part of the 613 laws/commandments we are still to follow as the greatest one is love that helps us obey the moral laws.

These are the ONLY germane laws from God's standpoint

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Walpole]

Hi Walpole
I'd like to clarify for for_his_glory and those reading along, that Catholics do pray directly to God or our Lord.

It sometimes may seem by reading these posts that they do not.

I believe in the communion of saints,,,I think we all do, really. Maybe we should have a thread on this..

I don't think Protestants believe in the Communion of Saints as it is meant in our creed. (This is another example of the strange concept of professing the creed of another religion one does not even believe.)

 

[JLB]

[ACMP=reminder]

I guess you changed your position because you previously stated, "Everyone that has ever died are still in their graves waiting for the resurrection when Christ returns on the last day." That is the definition of soul sleep.

This thread is not about soul sleep.


If you want to discuss soul sleep, please start a thread of your own.




Thank you




JLB
[/ACMP]

 

[Walpole]

This thread is not about soul sleep.


If you want to discuss soul sleep, please start a thread of your own.




Thank you




JLB

Shouldn't you address this to the person who espoused it?

I think I am going to leave the site as I seem to be singled out for some reason. This is the but another example.

Feel free to just delete my account.

Best wishes to you and God bless.

 

[JLB]

However I do not think salvation itself is based on what we do or what we do not do. I believe our salvation is based on what he did at the cross and it is very important that we do not lose sight of that ever.

Amen.


Jesus Christ Himself is our salvation, and He returns is also our Lord.


Ths means we need to know what He has said about salvation and what He expects us to do.


Do the things that our Lord teaches and commands matter?



Here is a snapshot of that final Day when we all will stand before our King to be judged according to our deeds.


Words of Christ in red —


“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46



Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’



As we can plainly see, our “deeds” the things we do or not do, does matter to the Lord.


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”






JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The Catholic bishops, writings, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. are the members of the first true Church of Christ established by Him. That is the point. No other church has a pedigree going all the way back to Christ and the Apostles.

Are you saying that Christ and the Apostles were all Roman Catholic?

 

[JLB]

Shouldn't you address this to the person who espoused it?

I think I am going to leave the site as I seem to be singled out for some reason. This is the but another example.

Feel free to just delete my account.

Best wishes to you and God bless.

I addressed your post because you brought up the term soul sleep.

You were asked once by staff to discuss in another thread.


I don’t what this thread to get sidetracked.


As I said, you guys are welcome to start your own thread about that subject.




Thanks, JLB

 

[JLB]

These are the ONLY germane laws from God's standpoint

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If you are walking according to the Spirit, in which you are led by the Spirit.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 8:1-2

 

[for_his_glory]

If someone is worshiping idols and participating in paganism, then they would be be unspotted. (They would be violating the first commandment.)

Don't you mean spotted instead of unspotted?

 

[for_his_glory]

"through faith": through Christ's faith(fulness), not ours.
Being born again is to become indwelt by the Holy Spirit

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


[Mat 16:15-17 KJV]
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[Jhn 14:16-17 KJV]
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Christ was the Holy Spirit and had imparted the fruits of the Spirit unto them


"Our acceptance" has nothing to do with it: He chose us individually at the foundation of the world, and from that, we accept Him. We have been given spiritual life and the knowledge of Him. We contribute nothing to receive it , including our obedience - it is a gift.

[Rev 13:7 - 8 KJV]
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith of Christ is understood as we study these scriptures to name a few in the KJV, John 12:44-50; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). The newer translations has changed where it says faith of Christ to faith in Christ. There is a difference between faith of Christ and faith in Christ as you can read in those scriptures out of the KJV. The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth, John 12:49, 50. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

The Son of God is that free gift of God's grace given to all who will believe by faith in Christ and confess Him as Lord and Savior so they will see the kingdom of God, Ephesians 2:8-10; John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10. There is no working towards something that is free as all we have to do is accept the gift. Believe is a verb that means something we consider to be true as we have heard the Gospel and not only heard it, but also believe what is written for our well being.

Faith works come after we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that empowers us to go out into the world and continue in the good works of the Lord, Acts 2:37, 38; James 2:14-20. The good works are taking His Gospel message to the world as we too are His disciples and to love and help those in need as what we do we do unto the glory of the Lord Christ Jesus, Matthew 25:31-40

 

[rogerg]

f you are walking according to the Spirit, in which you are led by the Spirit.

In order to be led by the Spirit, one has to have the Spirit.
Before that happens, it is impossible to walk with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Christ ( who is the Lamb of God) having been slayed, brought forth salvation. Once that slaying occurred, no further
names could be added to the book. Only those in the book become saved. No one in it deserves to be there.

Wow!!! It says nothing of the sort in Rev 13:7-8.

You need to read the full context of Rev 13:5-9. The beast was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies and power was given unto him to continue for three and a half years which equals 1260 days, Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and power was given him by Satan over all kindred’s, and tongues, and nations. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints as they wait upon the Lords return on the last day and whoever's names are written in the Lamb's book of life from the beginning unto the end when Christ returns that have been obedient to God's commands from every generation will at that time receive eternal life with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is the last thing I'll say to you about the books:
Each world - this current world, as opposed to the world to come-- has its own book of life,
so two books, not one. Because this world is transient and will end, all those whose name are in
it will have them blotted out (of that book) either when they die or when this world ends; the
names of those written by God into the book of life of the world to come (from the
foundation of the world), because that world is eternal, its book is eternal,
and therefore its names also eternal, so they can never be blotted out from it.

[Psa 69:28 KJV]
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

There is only one Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. This book, plus a few others will be opened at the Great White Throne judgement and only those whose names have been found written in the Lamb's book of life will receive eternal life. Those whose names were blotted out for their unrighteousness of not being obedient to God's commands will be thrown into the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Fastfredy0]

There is only one Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. This book, plus a few others will be opened at the Great White Throne judgement and only those whose names have been found written in the Lamb's book of life will receive eternal life. Those whose names were blotted out for their unrighteousness of not being obedient to God's commands will be thrown into the Lake of fire.

Agreed ... but you have a scripture saying "names were blotted out"? (I know there a verse about not blotting out people, but not one about blotting people out)

Aside: It's only a technicality... just curious.

 

[JLB]

In order to be led by the Spirit, one has to have the Spirit.

Amen to that !!!



Yes Paul is writing to born again Christians.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Those who are in Christ must learn to walk according to the Spirit’s leading, in which they practice righteousness.


Those Christians who live there lives according to the sinful desires of the flesh, are indeed under condemnation and are in danger of not inheriting the kingdom of God.



Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God will have no part in God’s kingdom.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Before that happens, it is impossible to walk with Him.

I agree.




JLB

 

[rogerg]

There is no working towards something that is free as all we have to do is accept the gift.

If there is an "all we have to do" part, then it can't be a free gift. But we are told that it is a free gift, so it must be
given to us in its entirety with nothing left out or required from us to receive it.

Believe is a verb that means something we consider to be true as we have heard the Gospel and not only heard it, but also believe what is written for our well being.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Belief is a gift from God. A non-saved person just cannot make themselves believe something they just don't believe because the proposition is folly unto them

The Son of God is that free gift of God's grace given to all who will believe by faith in Christ and confess Him as Lord and Savior

I would say it in the reverse - that all who believe do so because of being given God's grace.