Bible Study Should Christian women be able to teach Christian men?

[andy pandy]

Im sorry to humble all the proud Christian men out there but the first witness and the founder of Christianity was a Woman. The first person to witness the empty tomb and witness the risen Christ and talk to the risen Christ was a woman, and given an instuction by the risen Christ was a woman.

Without the ressurection Christianity is nothing and the Father and his Christ chose a woman first.

My fellow men, we have been humbled. Lol. Just accept it. Jesus does not favor or discriminate and God will always humble the proud. God has his ways and his ways are not always your ways.

Men are so proud but who stood by Jesus when he suffered the most?, Scripture mentions many women at his side for support never forsake him in a time of better or worse, not dudes. Where were all his dude diciples?

I have heard your arguments about 153 times from people who bypass the word, but speculation based on speculation is not the stuff of correct exegesis.

If you care to read what the scripture says about being appointed an Elder, it says nothing at all about being a first witness for anything. That being the case, your hypothesis has no merit.

 

[Corn Pop]

I have heard your arguments about 153 times from people who bypass the word, but speculation based on speculation is not the stuff of correct exegesis.

If you care to read what the scripture says about being appointed an Elder, it says nothing at all about being a first witness for anything. That being the case, your hypothesis has no merit.

Ok, well lets go through what i said and prove me wrong by scripture.

I said the first witness and founder of christianity was a woman. The ressurection of Christ is the foundation of Christianity what is Christianity without the resurection
and the first witness of the risen Christ was a woman. Check.

The first person to talk with and given instruction by Jesus after his ressurection was to a woman. Check..

Without the ressuraction of Christ Chrisianity is nothing as its based on his resurrection and they chose a woman witness first. Check.

Jesus does not favour he gave himself for all and loves men and women equal. Check.

God humbles the proud. Check.

Many women were witness to the end at his crucifiction and no sign of male diciples there, only someone known as the diciple he loved. Check.

Gods ways are not always our ways. Check.

Maybe im not perfect but i dont think what i said is completly crooked. Check.

 

[andy pandy]

Not the all out written OT and NT as we know it, but wasn't there Torah/OT scrolls? Jewish boys went to synagogue where they were taught. There were scrolls. There was also very careful oral Word passed down for generations. There were Paul's letters he also wrote and were more then likely read to the churches. Not how we know it to be. Some were required to memorize whole books/passages. I agree a woman cannot be husband to one wife. While these were guidelines for that time period, and good guidelines to look at for today, Paul would have needed quite a large word of knowledge/wisdom there of women in this time period to include guidelines for woman elders.

But this is as far as I can really discuss on this topic. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how I see these passages. I look at the time period and customs of the time too.

What we have to bear in mind with subjects of this nature is that although there was local laws and customs which come into play, the word was written by God for all for all time. So something written 2,000 years ago is just as relevant today as when it was written. If that is not the case, we will pick out those bits that suit our theology.

As I read the scripture, I don't question whether this or that is relevant today. I ask myself why the church has strayed so much from the truth, putting its own take on things and thus distorting the truth.

 

[andy pandy]

Ok, well lets go through what i said and prove me wrong by scripture. I have never claimed to be perfect.

I said the first witness and founder of christianity was a woman. The ressurection of Christ is the foundation of Christianity and the first witness of the risen Christ was a woman. Check.

The first person to talk with and given instruction by Jesus after his ressurection was to a woman. Check..

Without the ressuraction of Christ Chrisianity is nothing as its based on his resurrection. Check. And they chose a woman first after that fact. Check above.

Jesus does not favour he gave himself for all and loves men and women equal. Check.

God humbles the proud. Check.

Many women were witness to the end at his crucifiction and no sign of male diciples there, only someone known as the diciple he loved. Check.

Gods ways are not always our ways. Check.

Maybe im not perfect but i dont think what i said is completly crooked. Check.

You can check all you want but the scripture is clear. There is no requiremnt for an Elder to have been a first witness and until it is, your claims have no merit.. Read Timothy and Titus.

 

[Corn Pop]

You can check all you want but the scripture is clear. There is no requiremnt for an Elder to have been a first witness and until it is, your claims have no merit.. Read Timothy and Titus.

I never said an elder had to be first witness. I said the first witness of the resurection and who the risen Christ spoke to was a women. Ok maybe not the first Christian if the diciple who Jesus loved seen the empty tomb and believed before Jesus spoke to the woman. But the first to see the empty tomb, speak to the risen Christ, and given the instruction by the risen Christ to go tell the diciples and preach the word was a Woman.

Check me on that im going from the top of my head as i have not looked at the scripture now to check myself but i think thats correct and correct me if im wrong.

 

[andy pandy]

I never said an elder had to be first witness. I said the first witness of the resurection and who the risen Christ spoke to was a women. Ok maybe not the first Christian if the diciple who Jesus loved seen the empty tomb and believed before Jesus spoke to the woman. But the first to see the empty tomb, speak to the risen Christ, and given the instruction to go tell the diciples and preach the risen Christ was a Woman.

Sorry kiwidan, but your implications are very clear. You are defending female leadership because they were the first witnesses. So once again, being a first witness is not a requirement to be an Elder.

 

[Corn Pop]

Sorry kiwidan, but your implications are very clear. You are defending female leadership because they were the first witnesses. So once again, being a first witness is not a requirement to be an Elder.

Im not defending anyone i dont favor. Im just saying what the scripture says and acknowleging the women in the scriptures. You seem to be defensive going on about some requirement to be a Elder im not even talking about.

Jesus 12 diciples were dudes and are mentioned everywhere, im just showing where the women were in scripture. They were always there for him. When no one wanted to know him or denied him, scripture tells us these women were there for Jesus till the end.

And also while a dude was complaining to Jesus a woman was anointing Jesus. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Not sure how many Churches mention the anointing of Jesus feet as a memorial of the Woman. I just did.

 

[Adoration]

Im not defending anyone i dont favor. Im just saying what the scripture says and acknowleging the women in the scriptures. You seem to be defensive going on about some requirement to be a Elder im not even talking about.

Jesus 12 diciples were dudes and are mentioned everywhere, im just showing where the women were in scripture. They were always there for him. When no one wanted to know him or denied him, scripture tells us these women were there for Jesus till the end.

And also while a dude was complaining to Jesus a woman was anointing Jesus. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Not sure how many Churches mention the anointing of Jesus feet as a memorial of the Woman. I just did.

I have read all your contributions to this thread and have agreed with you.... I do NOT see that you are promoting women teaching men at all... I simply see you stating that women had an important role in Jesus time. Jesus had a VERY TENDER HEART toward women... It is seen in all His interactions with them... We can't even get the GIST of emotion that occurred from the written text.

 

[Tessa]

Luke 2:36-38

36. Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of great age and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity,

37. this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God bight and day with fastings and prayers.

38. And coming in that instant gave thanks to The Lord and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

 

[Sister]

What we have to bear in mind with subjects of this nature is that although there was local laws and customs which come into play, the word was written by God for all for all time. So something written 2,000 years ago is just as relevant today as when it was written. If that is not the case, we will pick out those bits that suit our theology.

As I read the scripture, I don't question whether this or that is relevant today. I ask myself why the church has strayed so much from the truth, putting its own take on things and thus distorting the truth.

I agree that the Word was written by God. It was God breathed/inspired and is relevant for Christians today. When setting up the first church though, Paul's audience is a bit different then the audience today where women can go to seminary and actually learn the Word of God. Men wouldn't ordain women back in Bible times. So while the passage speaks to anointing/knowledge/behaviors an elder should have, Paul would have had to look thousands of years into the future. Society would have not accepted women teaching Torah, simply because they were not allowed. But it is okay to disagree. I assure you I am personally not going to pastor nor go around teaching in depth studies on this subject. These are the observations I see and more then likely will hold onto. I have had a male and woman pastor for the past ten years or so. The couples pastor together.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree that the Word was written by God. It was God breathed/inspired and is relevant for Christians today. When setting up the first church though, Paul's audience is a bit different then the audience today where women can go to seminary and actually learn the Word of God. Men wouldn't ordain women back in Bible times. So while the passage speaks to anointing/knowledge/behaviors an elder should have, Paul would have had to look thousands of years into the future. Society would have not accepted women teaching Torah, simply because they were not allowed. But it is okay to disagree. I assure you I am personally not going to pastor nor go around teaching in depth studies on this subject. These are the observations I see and more then likely will hold onto. I have had a male and woman pastor for the past ten years or so. The couples pastor together.

Actually, Paul, Peter, and John all looked into the future and warned against the anti-christ and those changing Scripture.

 

[Sister]

Actually, Paul, Peter, and John all looked into the future and warned against the anti-christ and those changing Scripture.

That is true. They were not omniscient though.... Just some thoughts.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Bible is either true or it isn't.
Take your pick.

 

[for_his_glory]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Genesis 1:27).

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).

It is interesting to note that God called both male and female, "Adam" in the day they were created. Adam means "man." Adam and Eve were created with God-ordained differences from each other, but together they made a full "man," or a complete picture of God Himself. There was perfection in their union. Their differences were not a source of discord or inequality, but a beautiful compliment to each other. Together, God gave them the task of overseeing His creation.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28).


​

 

[for_his_glory]

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.

 

[andy pandy]

I agree that the Word was written by God. It was God breathed/inspired and is relevant for Christians today. When setting up the first church though, Paul's audience is a bit different then the audience today where women can go to seminary and actually learn the Word of God. Men wouldn't ordain women back in Bible times. So while the passage speaks to anointing/knowledge/behaviors an elder should have, Paul would have had to look thousands of years into the future. Society would have not accepted women teaching Torah, simply because they were not allowed. But it is okay to disagree. I assure you I am personally not going to pastor nor go around teaching in depth studies on this subject. These are the observations I see and more then likely will hold onto. I have had a male and woman pastor for the past ten years or so. The couples pastor together.

I read an interesting comment in an article yeasterday on the right way to interpret scripture. The writer said that there was a core truth in every scripture which indicated the reason for saying what the writer said. In addition to that he said we need to look at the meanings that may be attached to the verse that may not be part of its core meaning.

As an example is the verse that says an Elder has to be the husband of one wife. That is easy to understand although there are those who demand that it only applies to a male Elder, not to female Elders. So what are the other conclusions that we could draw from this verse apart from its core message?

In this case not a lot as all the verses that talk about leadership in the church in the new testament only talk about male leadership. So do we look for different understandings because we do things differently today? We could but I would say that we would have to read into it things that are not there.

So where does that leave us? My suggestion is that we have no choice but to make our way of doing things line up with scripture, not make scripture line up with our way of doing things and translating it to back up our ideas on the subject.

Sadly, that is what the church does if it doesn't want to follow the teaching of scripture and sadly the rationale nine times out of ten is that she is good at the job. As I understand most of the ministry in the church, no one is good at it because if they were, we would not need God.

I remember the first time I was required to pray for someone who needed deliverance. I had no idea what to do. I read out a few scriptures, laid hands on him and prayed. He was delivered immediately. How good is that?

 

[andy pandy]

Im not defending anyone i dont favor. Im just saying what the scripture says and acknowleging the women in the scriptures. You seem to be defensive going on about some requirement to be a Elder im not even talking about.

Jesus 12 diciples were dudes and are mentioned everywhere, im just showing where the women were in scripture. They were always there for him. When no one wanted to know him or denied him, scripture tells us these women were there for Jesus till the end.

And also while a dude was complaining to Jesus a woman was anointing Jesus. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Not sure how many Churches mention the anointing of Jesus feet as a memorial of the Woman. I just did.

So, what is the point of your comment if it has nothing at all to do with the subject matter?

 

[andy pandy]

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.

Phoebe was a deaconess, not an Elder. There is a difference. A deaconess does not preach. She looks after the material needs of the congregation as you will see in the passage that speaks about apppointing deacons in Acts.

Priscilla was a leader along with her husband of the church that met in her home. It does not say she was an Elder in the church. And it is speculation and nothing more that she was senior to Aquilla because she was mentioned first.

Euodia and Syntyche. No mention of them being Elders. In the church that I was in in the UK the senior Elder had a female who used to help him but she was not an Elder.

Junia. There is no certainty that he/she was a woman. As many who say she was a woman say he was a man so you are going to have to come up with something more substantial that Junia. Again, it does not say she/he was an Elder in the church.

Paul does not commend women who speak in the church. He commends women who fulfill their role as deaconesses, prophetesses and helpmeets. Not once are they referred to as Elders. And what you claim contradicts what he told Timothy to do in appointing Elders in all the churches. The whole passage makes it very clear it was a role for men. If it wasn't, why did he not give any instructions about appointing female elders?

 

[andy pandy]

I have read all your contributions to this thread and have agreed with you.... I do NOT see that you are promoting women teaching men at all... I simply see you stating that women had an important role in Jesus time. Jesus had a VERY TENDER HEART toward women... It is seen in all His interactions with them... We can't even get the GIST of emotion that occurred from the written text.

No one is saying that women did not have an important role and saying that is not relevant to the thread. The Thread is Should Christian Women Teach Christian Men. Until you can show scripture that says it is OK then there is no contest.

 

[Corn Pop]

So, what is the point of your comment if it has nothing at all to do with the subject matter?

Ok so the thread title is should christian women be allowed to teach christian men.

Jesus told a woman to go tell his brethren he was ascending to God. So she went and told them she seen the Lord as the Lord told her to go tell them.

She was instructed with the knowledge she had through her experience to tell the diciples. So she teach them something. She preach the lord was accending to God as Jesus told her. She teach them something they didnt know.