For God SO LOVES the Entire Human Race...

[for_his_glory]

warning to who?

Please take this to Talk With The Staff we can discuss it there.

 

[Fastfredy0]

warning to who?

Agreed, I asked the same question. I didn't notice any personal attacks. But then such things are subjective to a degree.
I wish the administration would point out to the pertinent party the specifics. Maybe it was me

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed, I asked the same question. I didn't notice any personal attacks. But then such things are subjective to a degree.
I wish the administration would point out to the pertinent party the specifics. Maybe it was me

I sent both of you the reason why. Did neither of you receive that?

 

[Quantrill]

it is very easy to take verses completely out of their contexts and what they were intended for, and to use them for a doctrine. The "reformed" teaching of "election" is IMPOSSIBLE, as passages like John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1, 3:9; 1 Timothy 2:1-6, etc, clearly teach the opposite!

Where did I take anything out of context?

Why did you reply to my post yet did not address anything I said?

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

Where did I take anything out of context?

Why did you reply to my post yet did not address anything I said?

Quantrill

in the first place, God loving the entire human race, in that He desires their salvation, and the Calvinistic teaching of election, are totally opposed to each other. Secondly, none of the verses that you provide suport this view.

 

[Quantrill]

in the first place, God loving the entire human race, in that He desires their salvation, and the Calvinistic teaching of election, are totally opposed to each other. Secondly, none of the verses that you provide suport this view.

Support which view? Yours? Just because the verses I gave doesn't support your view, doesn't mean they are taken out of context.

None of the verses I gave were taken out of context as you implied. If they were, then show me how.

As I said in post #(16), God the Father does love the world. But Christians are not to love the world. Jesus Christ theSon has no affection for the world. Jesus Christ loves the Church.

These are things which must be considered.

As far as 'God loving the entire human race', I disagree. God loving the world doesn't mean He loves the entire human race. God hated Esau. And that even before Esau was born. (Rom. 9:10-13) God knows those who are His, who are of Him. He has no love for those who are not of Him.

God does love the world and gave His Son for the world. That doesn't mean He loves everyone born into the world. It does mean Christ paid for the sins of the world. All of them. That the world might be saved.

The doctrine of election does not run contrary with God loving the world and dying for all. Jesus Christ died for all. The invitation is good...to all. Yet we know only the elect will avail themselves of this salvation. Those who are not elect ignore it...want nothing of it.

The bottom line is this. The non-elect go to hell because they refuse Jesus Christ. Not because their sins were not paid for. They are not 'in Christ'. The elect go to Heaven because they accept Jesus Christ. Not because they are not sinners. They are 'in Christ' and so their sins have been paid for by Christ.

There is no conflict in 'election' and 'whosoever'.

Quantrill

 

[Who Me]

I don't ignore verse 18. this study is on the extent of both God's love and desire of salvation, for the entire human race; against the false teachings of the Reformed/Calvinists, who say that Jesus only intended to die for the "elect". This passage in John 3 destroys this heresy.

Actually the passage confirms that Calvin was totally biblical.
God so loves the world, shows Gods love is universal in its extend.
whoever believes in me shall not perish shows that not everyone is saved
who does not belief in me shows the fate of those who are not Christian.

These verse can be used to support Calvinism just as they can be used to support arminanism.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Actually the passage confirms that Calvin was totally biblical.
God so loves the world, shows Gods love is universal in its extend.
whoever believes in me shall not perish shows that not everyone is saved
who does not belief in me shows the fate of those who are not Christian.

These verse can be used to support Calvinism just as they can be used to support arminanism.

Calvinism teaches that Jesus Christ died only for His elect, and not for anyone else. How can this be true, when the Bible says that God loves the entire human race, and desires that they ALL were to get saved? Calvinstic theology on slavation cannot be Biblical.

 

[Quantrill]

I have no problem in saying that Christ's purpose was to die and save only the elect. His purpose was limited. But the atonement was not limited. It covered the sins of the whole world.

But here again, only God and Christ know who the elect are. We don't. Thus we take the Gospel to all.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

I have no problem in saying that Christ's purpose was to die and save only the elect. His purpose was limited. But the atonement was not limited. It covered the sins of the whole world

you don't understand what you are saying here!

 

[Quantrill]

you don't understand what you are saying here!

Quite the contrary. I understand it and have explained it.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

I have no problem in saying that Christ's purpose was to die and save only the elect. His purpose was limited. But the atonement was not limited. It covered the sins of the whole world.

see your contradiction. you say that you have no problem accepting that the purpose of Jesus' death for only for the elect. But the Atonement is not limited. The Atonement IS the SAME as the Death of Jesus Christ! You cannot have it both ways

 

[JLB]

No.. God does not favor (the definition of love is “volition to favor”) everyone to the same extent. He loves those in Christ as He loves Christ. (John 17:23) To those God adopts He loves most and perfectly. There is NO hate (volition to disfavor) in God for those IN CHRIST; whereas, the wrath (volition of disfavor) of God is eternal for those not IN CHRIST.

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:6-8

• But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

While we were sinners, separated from Christ, being people of the world, God loved us and Christ died for us, so that we could become children of God.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17



According to your “theology”, who do you consider as being excluded from “the world” ?






JLB

 

[SolaScriptura]

No.. God does not favor (the definition of love is “volition to favor”) everyone to the same extent. He loves those in Christ as He loves Christ. (John 17:23) To those God adopts He loves most and perfectly. There is NO hate (volition to disfavor) in God for those IN CHRIST; whereas, the wrath (volition of disfavor) of God is eternal for those not IN CHRIST

this is "theology", but NOT what the Bible teaches!

 

[for_his_glory]

Support which view? Yours? Just because the verses I gave doesn't support your view, doesn't mean they are taken out of context.

None of the verses I gave were taken out of context as you implied. If they were, then show me how.

As I said in post #(16), God the Father does love the world. But Christians are not to love the world. Jesus Christ theSon has no affection for the world. Jesus Christ loves the Church.

These are things which must be considered.

As far as 'God loving the entire human race', I disagree. God loving the world doesn't mean He loves the entire human race. God hated Esau. And that even before Esau was born. (Rom. 9:10-13) God knows those who are His, who are of Him. He has no love for those who are not of Him.

God does love the world and gave His Son for the world. That doesn't mean He loves everyone born into the world. It does mean Christ paid for the sins of the world. All of them. That the world might be saved.

The doctrine of election does not run contrary with God loving the world and dying for all. Jesus Christ died for all. The invitation is good...to all. Yet we know only the elect will avail themselves of this salvation. Those who are not elect ignore it...want nothing of it.

The bottom line is this. The non-elect go to hell because they refuse Jesus Christ. Not because their sins were not paid for. They are not 'in Christ'. The elect go to Heaven because they accept Jesus Christ. Not because they are not sinners. They are 'in Christ' and so their sins have been paid for by Christ.

There is no conflict in 'election' and 'whosoever'.

Quantrill

But, what you present is a Dispensationalist point of view that you believe in what you have been taught by man.

Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God did not literally hate Esau for if you read the full context it has nothing to do with human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants. God had already chosen Jacob, even before he was born, for God's purpose.

God chose Abraham out of all the men in the world, not because he hated all the other one's, but already chose him even before he was born. The scriptures could have very well said, "Abraham I loved, and every other man I hated". Again we see this with God choosing Isaac over Ishmael. God did not hate Esau or Ishmael as He also blest them, but in turn rejected God.

God loves those who He created and gave breath to, but yet many reject Him causing their own damnation.

 

[SolaScriptura]

But, what you present is a Dispensationalist point of view that you believe in what you have been taught by man.

Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God did not literally hate Esau for if you read the full context it has nothing to do with human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants. God had already chosen Jacob, even before he was born, for God's purpose.

God chose Abraham out of all the men in the world, not because he hated all the other one's, but already chose him even before he was born. The scriptures could have very well said, "Abraham I loved, and every other man I hated". Again we see this with God choosing Isaac over Ishmael. God did not hate Esau or Ishmael as He also blest them, but in turn rejected God.

God loves those who He created and gave breath to, but yet many reject Him causing their own damnation.

both in Hebrew and Greek, when the words used for "hate" are contrasted with "love", its meaning is of preference. This can be seen when Jesus says that we are to "hate (same Greek word as in Romans 9:13)...own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26). He is not saying that we are to literally "hate" (detest) our loved ones. But, that He is to be preferred over all. As Jesus told Peter in John 21, "do you love me more than these?” (verses 15-17), etc. Interesting, when Jesus says "love", He uses the Greek "ἀγαπάω"; but, when Peter says "love", he uses the Greek, "φιλέω". Jesus uses the highest form of the word; while Peter responds with "I am fond of, or like you". The third time Jesus uses "φῐλέω", to see if Peter really meant what he says. In 1 John 2:9, we read, "Someone might say, "I am in the light," but if they hate any of their brothers or sisters in God's family, they are still in the darkness", where it is clear that we are not meant to literally hate anyone!

 

[Quantrill]

see your contradiction. you say that you have no problem accepting that the purpose of Jesus' death for only for the elect. But the Atonement is not limited. The Atonement IS the SAME as the Death of Jesus Christ! You cannot have it both ways

I am not drawing a distinction between the atonement and the death of Christ. I am drawing a distinction between the purpose and the atonement.

Sort of like the parable of the 'hidden treasure'. (Matt. 13:44) A man had found a treasure in a field. So he went and bought the whole field to obtain just the treasure.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

But, what you present is a Dispensationalist point of view that you believe in what you have been taught by man.

Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God did not literally hate Esau for if you read the full context it has nothing to do with human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants. God had already chosen Jacob, even before he was born, for God's purpose.

God chose Abraham out of all the men in the world, not because he hated all the other one's, but already chose him even before he was born. The scriptures could have very well said, "Abraham I loved, and every other man I hated". Again we see this with God choosing Isaac over Ishmael. God did not hate Esau or Ishmael as He also blest them, but in turn rejected God.

God loves those who He created and gave breath to, but yet many reject Him causing their own damnation.

I disagree. This has nothing to do with my Dispensational view.

God says He hated Esau. I believe what He said.

I never said God hated all but Abraham. I never said God hated Ishmael. Scripture doesn't say that.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

God says He hated Esau. I believe what He said

not the way humans understand this. Jesus says in the Gospels that we are to "hate" everyone if we wanted to be His disciples. In 1 John 2 it says that if we "hate" our brothers/sisters, we are still in darkness, that is, unsaved. What do you make of this?

 

[SolaScriptura]

I am not drawing a distinction between the atonement and the death of Christ. I am drawing a distinction between the purpose and the atonement.

Sort of like the parable of the 'hidden treasure'. (Matt. 13:44) A man had found a treasure in a field. So he went and bought the whole field to obtain just the treasure.

Quantrill

you still don't get it!