[ Testimony ] How I left the faith

[Dorothy Mae]

well, I doubt that he's vain enough to be offended by those who doubt his existence.

He’s not at all offended. He simply won’t comply. He won’t meet your demands so you believe He is there.

 

[journeyman]

I love how you showed what He did for you. Christ is a relationship. He will not be summed up in puny human reasoning. Many want proof of God first. He is already here. He wants a relationship, not an argument. He summed it up in two little words ...."I AM". Now what are WE going to do about it?
He saved me from attempted murder, rape, assault, theft, drugs, alcohol, but most of all....He saved me from the Evil One and myself.

I saw Jesus in my parents, but I was too busy to listen.
I firmly believe without Gods' guidance, any man is capable of the most vile acts.
God blessed and I hope continues to bless you daninthelionsden.

 

[Edward]

I saw Jesus in my parents, but I was too busy to listen.
I firmly believe without Gods' guidance, any man is capable of the most vile acts.
God blessed and I hope continues to bless you daninthelionsden.

Jesus hasn't ever manifested for me so I could see Him, but He spoke to me audibly (and I recognized His voice!)

I hear the Lord's still small voice all the time. Everyday.

 

[journeyman]

Jesus hasn't ever manifested for me so I could see Him, but He spoke to me audibly (and I recognized His voice!)

I hear the Lord's still small voice all the time. Everyday.

Hey Edward.
I see Jesus manifested in many believers and I hope people see him manifested in me. It's great you hear his voice everyday. That also helps transform us into his image.

 

[Edward]

Hey Edward.
I see Jesus manifested in many believers and I hope people see him manifested in me. It's great you hear his voice everyday. That also helps transform us into his image.

Really. Wow. He told me, to try and see Him...in other people.

 

[journeyman]

Really. Wow. He told me, to try and see Him...in other people.

it's inevitable since we're being conformed to his image.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

it's inevitable since we're being conformed to his image.

That’s exactly what we’re predestined for.

 

[journeyman]

That’s exactly what we’re predestined for.

That's right,

Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Psa.44:22

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psa.116:15

 

[T. E. Smith]

You have chosen an example that eddy’s the natural laws. It is in a word nonsense. God’s existence doesn’t defy any laws.
Again, the example defies known laws. And what is more, no one in human history has seen evidence of such.

Hmm... excellent point, since, well, it would also seem that, unfortunately, the resurrection defies natural laws. Nevertheless, we can separate God and the resurrection, as many do.

See, I agree with you. Yet despite the fact that these examples defy known laws, you cannot prove for certain that they do not exist. And that is why "prove God does not exist" simply is inadequate. There is no evidence for God's existence, and natural laws have no explanation for how a supernatural being can interfere in the natural. Therefore, I reject belief in God.

He’s not at all offended. He simply won’t comply. He won’t meet your demands so you believe He is there.

Then if he refuses to show himself and demands blind faith, the rational response is to not believe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hmm... excellent point, since, well, it would also seem that, unfortunately, the resurrection defies natural laws. Nevertheless, we can separate God and the resurrection, as many do.

You forget that the builder of a house is not subject to the laws of dry wall and concrete and wood. The painter is not a part of the portrait. The artist is not limited to the room where the statue sits. But you can call it a miracle if you wish. Miracles, by definition, are not subject to natural laws or they would no longer be miracles.

See, I agree with you. Yet despite the fact that these examples defy known laws, you cannot prove for certain that they do not exist. And that is why "prove God does not exist" simply is inadequate. There is no evidence for God's existence, and natural laws have no explanation for how a supernatural being can interfere in the natural. Therefore, I reject belief in God.

Then if he refuses to show himself and demands blind faith, the rational response is to not believe.

You cannot use natural laws to define or limit God anymore than you can use the colors on a painting to define or limit the painter. You need to distinguish the creator or Maker from its creation. You are using the limits of any creation and wrongly applying it to the personality that created it.

There is evidence for God's existence but it has a catch and a very big one. That catch is what is preventing many people from seeing and admitting this. If a man admits God is there, the God of the Bible in this case, then this calls for that man to realize that his moral actions are being watched, recorded and will be judged one day. He is no longer bound merely by the human laws of the land he lives it. It is a lot worse. There is no hiding from God, if he admits God is there. In a word, if a man admits God is there AND looks into what that Being has communicated to those who knew or know Him well, then the only reasonable response is surrender. This outcome is suspected by many and so they do not want to go there.

I have thought about why, as a child, when I asked God to prove Himself to me, that is, that he is there, He did. (It was over many years and not a part of this discussion.) I know that my heart was ready to respond in accordance with that understanding, once achieved. I wanted to know the truth and was already willing to surrender or adjust my choices accordingly. I was not a casual inquirer just being curious. I was committed to responding to new understanding with all of me.

I say this because I have heard of those who asked God this and got nothing. God is the same so what is the problem, I wondered. I think that is it. This is why we see Jesus responding differently to different people. They each had their own choices regarding the truth and varying degrees of wanting it and being ready to surrender to it or resisting it.

God himself said he hides from the wise and intelligent and resists the proud, but reveals himself to babes, giving grace to the humble.

 

[T. E. Smith]

You forget that the builder of a house is not subject to the laws of dry wall and concrete and wood. The painter is not a part of the portrait. The artist is not limited to the room where the statue sits. But you can call it a miracle if you wish. Miracles, by definition, are not subject to natural laws or they would no longer be miracles.

You cannot use natural laws to define or limit God anymore than you can use the colors on a painting to define or limit the painter. You need to distinguish the creator or Maker from its creation. You are using the limits of any creation and wrongly applying it to the personality that created it.

There is evidence for God's existence but it has a catch and a very big one. That catch is what is preventing many people from seeing and admitting this. If a man admits God is there, the God of the Bible in this case, then this calls for that man to realize that his moral actions are being watched, recorded and will be judged one day. He is no longer bound merely by the human laws of the land he lives it. It is a lot worse. There is no hiding from God, if he admits God is there. In a word, if a man admits God is there AND looks into what that Being has communicated to those who knew or know Him well, then the only reasonable response is surrender. This outcome is suspected by many and so they do not want to go there.

I have thought about why, as a child, when I asked God to prove Himself to me, that is, that he is there, He did. (It was over many years and not a part of this discussion.) I know that my heart was ready to respond in accordance with that understanding, once achieved. I wanted to know the truth and was already willing to surrender or adjust my choices accordingly. I was not a casual inquirer just being curious. I was committed to responding to new understanding with all of me.

I say this because I have heard of those who asked God this and got nothing. God is the same so what is the problem, I wondered. I think that is it. This is why we see Jesus responding differently to different people. They each had their own choices regarding the truth and varying degrees of wanting it and being ready to surrender to it or resisting it.

God himself said he hides from the wise and intelligent and resists the proud, but reveals himself to babes, giving grace to the humble.

So now I don't believe in God because I don't like the idea of a divine spy camera? I've heard this more times than I can count.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So now I don't believe in God because I don't like the idea of a divine spy camera? I've heard this more times than I can count.

Do you mind the idea of the deeds of your life being recorded?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Do you mind the idea of the deeds of your life being recorded?

What I do or do not mind is irrelevant to the question of God's existence. You seem to think that my beliefs are based on what I would like to hear.

 

[Edward]

What I do or do not mind is irrelevant to the question of God's existence. You seem to think that my beliefs are based on what I would like to hear.

She makes a good point. If you think you have ever had even one whit of privacy on this earth you are mistaken.

So you can lie to us and get away with it, from us. But not from God, lol. You've read seven times that, it is what comes out of the mouth of man which defiles him. And tis even extends to our thoughts and intentions of our heart. (if you look on a woman with lust it is already adultery.) God says all through scripture that He looks at a mans heart.

So irrevelant as it may be, it's still recorded for all time.

 

[T. E. Smith]

She makes a good point. If you think you have ever had even one whit of privacy on this earth you are mistaken.

So you can lie to us and get away with it, from us. But not from God, lol. You've read seven times that, it is what comes out of the mouth of man which defiles him. And tis even extends to our thoughts and intentions of our heart. (if you look on a woman with lust it is already adultery.) God says all through scripture that He looks at a mans heart.

So irrevelant as it may be, it's still recorded for all time.

you should know that I don't "lust for" women. Anyways, since I do not believe in God, the logical consequence is that no God watches over me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What I do or do not mind is irrelevant to the question of God's existence. You seem to think that my beliefs are based on what I would like to hear.

No, that’s not what I said or mean, far from it. But I can understand why you think that.

But when it comes to that which our conscience already pesters us regarding, this goes beyond what we want. It’s a different matter altogether.

 

[T. E. Smith]

No, that’s not what I said or mean, far from it. But I can understand why you think that.

But when it comes to that which our conscience already pesters us regarding, this goes beyond what we want. It’s a different matter altogether.

Then what do you mean? Why is it relevant whether or not I like the idea of a God recording all we do? My atheism, and my dislike of this idea, are two very separate things.

Disliking the idea of a spy cam does not logically result in disbelieving it. The U.S. has surveillance systems, and I don't like that, but I still believe it. So my atheism is for different reasons.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

you should know that I don't "lust for" women. Anyways, since I do not believe in God, the logical consequence is that no God watches over me.

So your logic is if you are unaware of a matter, it has no impact on you, right? Since you don’t think there’s a God, no God is watching over you? Or do you mean you don’t care if a Being is recording your deeds or not?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Since you don’t think there’s a God, no God is watching over you?

Yes.

Or do you mean you don’t care if a Being is recording your deeds or not?

No, I do care, but whether I care or not has no effect on the truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then what do you mean? Why is it relevant whether or not I like the idea of a God recording all we do? My atheism, and my dislike of this idea, are two very separate things.

Disliking the idea of a spy cam does not logically result in disbelieving it. The U.S. has surveillance systems, and I don't like that, but I still believe it. So my atheism is for different reasons.

Not everyone is alike and if you feel those are separate, I accept that. People are not all alike for sure.