Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

[brightfame52]

God knows that all men are guilty sinners in themselves by nature Rom 3:10-19

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Thats what God saw in me and you and everyone by nature, nothing good in us

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God knows that all men are guilty sinners in themselves by nature Rom 3:10-19



Thats what God saw in me and you and everyone by nature, nothing good in us

What if God found something good in someone?

1 Kings 14:13

 

[brightfame52]

What if God found something good in someone?

1 Kings 14:13

If something is good in man its because God has made them a new creature/creation in Christ, otherwise see Rom 3:10-19 describing man by nature and what God sees.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If something is good in man its because God has made them a new creature/creation in Christ, otherwise see Rom 3:10-19 describing man by nature and what God sees.

I just showed you a scripture where God found something good in a man. When we face scripture that counters our beliefs, we can either question scripture or question our understanding. Most christians I meet question or ignore scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

I just showed you a scripture where God found something good in a man. When we face scripture that counters our beliefs, we can either question scripture or question our understanding. Most christians I meet question or ignore scripture.

I just responded to that post, did you read it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I just responded to that post, did you read it.

The description was before Jesus so your answer is not possible and in any case begs the question as to why God just doesn’t put good in everyone so He can find it there.

 

[brightfame52]

The description was before Jesus so your answer is not possible and in any case begs the question as to why God just doesn’t put good in everyone so He can find it there.

You lost me there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You lost me there.

There’s a verse in the Old Testament where God said he found something good in a guy. No Jesus.

 

[brightfame52]

There’s a verse in the Old Testament where God said he found something good in a guy. No Jesus.

You beating a dead horse, I have answered that. You need to read my posts. It doesnt make sense for you to ask a question, have it answered, then ignore the answer because you dont agree with t or dont understand it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You beating a dead horse, I have answered that. You need to read my posts. It doesnt make sense for you to ask a question, have it answered, then ignore the answer because you dont agree with t or dont understand it.

You didn’t answer it. Jesus wasn’t changing people in the Old Testament. But let’s leave this. It’s an uncomfortable scripture for the “there’s nothing good in any man theology.”

 

[brightfame52]

You didn’t answer it. Jesus wasn’t changing people in the Old Testament. But let’s leave this. It’s an uncomfortable scripture for the “there’s nothing good in any man theology.”

You still beating a dead horse.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Election to salvation is clearly God's choice:


Because unconditional election seems "unjust", many agree with Arminius and read into "foreknow" something in the "foreknown" must have merited election, rending it conditional. But context and scripture fix the "time" of God's election BEFORE creation, before we did good or bad:



And so the debate has raged for centuries. But I propose there is an "elegant" (conforming to scripture) solution that keeps the best part of unconditional election (salvation by grace not works, eternal security) while rejecting the conclusion God didn't actually base his election on something He foreknew, like Peter says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)":

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:


The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

So also the apparent contradiction between “Unconditional” and “Conditional” Election. God conditioned election according to what we were in His omniscience, not according to us now after He chose to create.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He knew everyone who would spring into existence, both the “unfallen version” and “fallen version”; God knew who would choose life in Holiness with Him and who would choose evil and want to live separate from Him. Both the “children of God” and the “children of the Devil” were fully known to Him.

By a special act of “foreknowledge”, God “knew before” all those who loved Him, somewhat like we experience “highlighted text” before its surrounding darkened text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their “fallen versions” do in this fallen realm:


Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

Therefore, Paul does not contradict Peter and in Romans 8:29 actually agrees with Peter as the context requires only the Elected were foreknown and predestined..

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the “fallen version” were or did in this life. It was God’s good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the “unfallen version” from coming into existence.

Revised OP:

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both?

Scripture says divine election is conditioned “according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Pt. 1:2):

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:2 KJV)

Scripture also says divine election was not conditioned according to works either good or evil the Elect do:

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. (Rom. 9:11 KJV)

Like the Blind Men and the Elephant, Calvin citing Paul declared Election was by Sovereign choice and not based upon foreknowledge at all, while Arminius quoted Peter and insisted it was based upon the works of “foreseen faith” or its arbitrary nature implies unrighteousness with God.

But if we deduce what it was God foreknew, the paradox vanishes. Before the foundation of the world it follows Omniscient God had two versions of Creation in view, the “Unfallen Version” which existed only in the Mind of God, and the “Fallen Version” that actually came into existence.

If God elects according to “a condition” foreknown in the “unfallen version” (which never comes into existence), Election would be according to God’s Sovereign “good purpose and will” and free of any hint of unfairness even though it is not based upon any works of good or evil the Elect actually do in this life.

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

 

[GodsGrace]

If something is good in man its because God has made them a new creature/creation in Christ, otherwise see Rom 3:10-19 describing man by nature and what God sees.

If something is good in man it would have to be even if they are NOT born again.

Keep to your theology.
It would have to be because God MADE them that way.

But this does create a problem for you.

Romans 3,10
There is none righteous until we become born of the spirit.

Being righteous and being a good person are totally different.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I just responded to that post, did you read it.

But Jesus wasn’t changing anyone in BC.

If something is good in man it would have to be even if they are NOT born again.

Correct. God found something good in not born again people.

Keep to your theology.
It would have to be because God MADE them that way.

why didn’t he go ahead and make all people that way? Why does it say “find” and not “made?”

But this does create a problem for you.

Not at all.

Romans 3,10
There is none righteous until we become born of the spirit.

That’s not what that scripture says.

Being righteous and being a good person are totally different.

What’s the difference? Is giving a cup of cold water good or righteous since there’s a reward?

 

[GodsGrace]

But Jesus wasn’t changing anyone in BC.

Correct. God found something good in not born again people.

why didn’t he go ahead and make all people that way? Why does it say “find” and not “made?”

Not at all.

That’s not what that scripture says.

What’s the difference? Is giving a cup of cold water good or righteous since there’s a reward?

Hi Dorothy
I hope you know that I was responding to brightfame52 .

Romans 3,10 states that there is none righteous.
I quoted the correct verse.

As to the difference, please let brightfame reply or this convo is going to get confusing.
(I agree with you).

 

[GodsGrace]

But Jesus wasn’t changing anyone in BC.

Correct. God found something good in not born again people.

why didn’t he go ahead and make all people that way? Why does it say “find” and not “made?”

Not at all.

That’s not what that scripture says.

What’s the difference? Is giving a cup of cold water good or righteous since there’s a reward?

PS
What is the reward?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You lost me there.

There is no description of people being good in BC because they were lucky and God himself made them good.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

PS
What is the reward?

Jesus said those who give a cup of cold water to little ones get a reward. He didn’t specify what.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Dorothy
I hope you know that I was responding to brightfame52 .

Romans 3,10 states that there is none righteous.
I quoted the correct verse.

As to the difference, please let brightfame reply or this convo is going to get confusing.
(I agree with you).

Sorry, my mistake. Thanks!!!

 

[brightfame52]

Alfred P :Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both?

Scripture says divine election is conditioned “according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Pt. 1:2):

Its unconditional as to what man needs to do. Predestination is totally conditioned on Gods prerogatives outside of the sinner. And 1 Pet 1:2 says nothing about Gods foreknowledge being a condition, thats something you said.