Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

Most, if not everyone, based upon their conscience, believes they've satisfied
God's requirements for salvation in their own way. So, you're saying then that regardless of what
their own way is, as long as their conscience is clear, they'll be saved? Is that correct?

Do you really know what others are thinking?
Jesus' message of salvation has been taught around the world.
If someone thinks they will receive salvation another way than what has been taught, you can be sure they have offended their conscience.

 

[Hopeful]

Because they dead. How can a corpse change their mind ?

Being dead in trespasses and sins isn't mortal death.
They are not corpses.
They are alive and capable of changing their minds about sin, and love.

 

[Hopeful]

If you dead you cant perform an action. The death is spiritual so the no spiritual action can be performed.

Yet God can cut through your rules to bring deliverance to all those still dead in their fleshly oriented mind.
They can be reborn as new creatures.

 

[Hopeful]

journeyman



A spiritually dead person cant just stop living as a spiritually dead person, so he cant repent. And the chief characteristic of a spiritually dead person, is that some how, some way, salvation, being right with God, is always conditioned on him or herself. See false religion, being moral, sincere, good husband, father, employee or boss, honest, all that and more, when we base our salvation on any of those things, our faith, religion etc, our acceptance with God on any of those things, we are walking as spiritually dead people walk and according to the flesh, and its impossible to change that type of thinking, its part of the dead sin nature. The only hope of repentance is if God gives us a new birth by the Spirit.

He won't give it to those who don't seek it.
So the spiritually dead must be able to seek.
And if they can seek, they can also repent of sin and do all the rest of the things that promote new life in Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

What do you think these verses mean?

[Heb 7:12, 18-19 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

It means...the old ways have passed away and something new has been provided by God that CAN make us perfect.

 

[brightfame52]

Your theory is against the words of Jesus Christ.


The only way to be saved is to believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



A person must hear and believe the Gospel to be saved.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Please explain how a person is saved, that has never heard of Jesus Christ?


Yours is a Christ-less Gospel.




JLB

The only way to believe is to be saved. And if anyone conditions salvation on their act of believing, thats salvation by works. Thats what this thread is all about.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

No, it says "whosoever" believes. To that point, the verse does not define who those are.
The elect believes in Jesus, so it could be, and in fact is, them.

Yep, in fact in the original its whosoever is believing, believe is a present tense participle here, so thats who God so Loved, and sacrificed His Son for, those who are believing, which we know is His Sheep.

God makes the commitment that all whom He chose for salvation will hear the gospel and of Christ - hear both physically and spiritually and come to faith in Him through the fruit of the Spirit.

Amen I agree, God will send a preacher of the Gospel to His Sheep to hear as stated in Rom 10:14-15

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Or God may deliver a regenerated Sheep unto the Gospel to bring about their obedience Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Again in the orignal it could read:

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Either way God is committed to getting His People the Gospel to hear and believe.

Peter said of the Gentiles he was sent to, this:

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

[rogerg]

It means...the old ways have passed away and something new has been provided by God that CAN make us perfect.

God made all law and commandment pertaining to salvation save Christ, to pass away. That being the case, no works for them are possible. Were such works attempted, they then would be in direct violation of, and in contradiction to, God and His purposes and thereby in-effect, calling God a liar. Consequently, salvation can only be received as completely a free gift from God though His mercy, grace, generosity, divine prerogative, judgment, and power. We would do well to submit ourselves to that.

[Heb 7:12 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[Heb 7:18-19 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
[Heb 7:25 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[rogerg]

Do you really know what others are thinking?
Jesus' message of salvation has been taught around the world.
If someone thinks they will receive salvation another way than what has been taught, you can be sure they have offended their conscience.

Wait.... you ask me if I know what others are thinking and then go on to say
"If someone thinks they will receive salvation another way than what has been taught, you can be sure they have offended their conscience."? You just did exactly what you accused me of doing!

The bottom line is that only God's selection of certain individuals to salvation in spite of any and all other factors and conditions, demonstrates consistency of criteria for salvation across all peoples, belief systems, inabilities, ETC. Those He chooses, regardless of the conditions they're under, because chosen by Him, they alone are saved, and by that, come to a true faith in Christ.

 

[jaybo]

It means...the old ways have passed away and something new has been provided by God that CAN make us perfect.

Thanks for your great posts!

 

[JLB]

The only way to believe is to be saved. And if anyone conditions salvation on their act of believing, thats salvation by works. Thats what this thread is all about.

I gave scripture for what I stated.


You will need to do better than just denying what the scriptures say.

Please post the scripture that says believing is works salvation.




For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



A person must hear and believe the Gospel to be saved.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Please explain how a person is saved, that has never heard of Jesus Christ?



JLB

 

[journeyman]

The unsaved can never realize that.
The gospel is hidden to all unless and until becoming saved and born again by God. It is not within our power to give to ourselves spiritual life, sight or wisdom because we are dead in sin. Notice below, that unsaved man's wisdom simply cannot comprehend things spiritual. It can only be taught by, and learned through, the Holy Ghost (1Co 2:13).
Man is born spiritually blind (2 Co 4:4). All are sinners from the womb, and as soon as born, speak lies (Psa 58:3). No one in a natural unsaved state can understand spiritual truth (Rom 3:11)

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Hello rogerg.
In this thread, it was explained how Paul told the Corinthians to shine the light of Christ on the lost by their conduct, by following Christ. Our Lord simply taught,

let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. Mt.5:16

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

"The wicked" have a different mother than the righteous. And, "Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it." Pro.22:6, shows us what righteous parents do.

You know my friend, this is so reasonably easy to understand and contrary to what you believe, I have to keep reminding myself how I once argued for your position against my position. I did exactly what you're doing now. I used the same scripture you're using, said the same things, but the one thing I wouldn't do, was actually look at what I was being told. I didn't examine scripture the othet person cited in relation to my own. But when I did, all scripture made sense.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Again explained in this thread already. Paul is comparing Jews and gentiles. We're all the same. The restriction to repentance is the sinners love for sin more than for God. Paul is in no way teaching that sinners are incapable of repentance.
We know this also from the many examples of how God warned and in different ways chastised people and they repented (because of Gods' work of chastisement.)

 

[journeyman]

Oh no friend, when one is spiritually dead, its a wrap, they are like the gentiles Paul referred to in Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

As already answered, Paul is teaching how all Jews and gentiles are the same. Paul isn't teaching all unbelieving Jews and gentiles are incapable of repentance.

The natural man dead in sin has only one hope and that is God has purposed to quicken them, which means make alive Eph 2:1,5 See for something to be made alive, its because it was dead !

Then we understand the dead can repent, because they're still physically alive and still have knowledge that God exists.

 

[journeyman]

You dont get it, men are spiritually dead friend. Any spiritual obedience is absolutely impossible from a spiritually dead person. Just like any physical obedience is impossible for a physically dead person.

Hey, the only reason we're physically alive is because God put a spirit in each of us,

The human spirit is[fn]the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one’s inmost being. Pro.20:27

Now men by nature can do the semblance of spiritual obedience, like repenting faith and all those things, but guess what ? They are all dead works Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

According to you, not one bit. You are saying the exact opposite of what Paul is saying.
How much more will Jesus, not enforcing the law which forbid executing him...not enforcing the Mosaic law, which forbid bearing false witness against another...to the point of death,

Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. Deu.19:19

You understand brightflame52, Paul is saying by law, Jesus could have put them all to death. Here's the point---> He showed this forebearance to show not only Jews, but gentiles could be forgiven.

They dead because they came from a spiritually dead sinner. In fact when and if God saves us, He gives repentance from dead works Heb 6:1

The blame game...my spiritually dead ancestor. That's not going to fly because we know who the accuser of believers (not the ancestor) is and why.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

They did expect believers to cease from sin.

 

[rogerg]

Hi journeyman,

"The wicked" have a different mother than the righteous. And, "Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it." Pro.22:6, shows us what righteous parents do.

In the verse you quoted, it is spiritual children that are the subject, not physical children. Everyone born are sinners from the womb.

You know my friend, this is so reasonably easy to understand and contrary to what you believe, I have to keep reminding myself how I once argued for your position against my position. I did exactly what you're doing now. I used the same scripture you're using, said the same things, but the one thing I wouldn't do, was actually look at what I was being told. I didn't examine scripture the othet person cited in relation to my own. But when I did, all scripture made sense.

I think the same thing about you and all scripture does already make sense to me.

Again explained in this thread already. Paul is comparing Jews and gentiles. We're all the same. The restriction to repentance is the sinners love for sin more than for God. Paul is in no way teaching that sinners are incapable of repentance.
We know this also from the many examples of how God warned and in different ways chastised people and they repented (because of Gods' work of chastisement.)

I beg to disagree. That they are incapable of repentance in and of themselves, is exactly what God through Paul
is teaching in Romans 3. Regarding salvation, God uses chastisement upon the elect to teach. We know this because
we are told in Heb 12:6, that God only chastises those He loves - He loves only those who have been covered by
Christ's offering because they have been covered by Christ's offering. In the spiritual sense, God does not love everyone-- God loves first, and those He loves, chastises, not the reverse. Heb 12 is addressed to the elect because they alone are the only ones who will be given a true faith, and of which faith, is Christ the author and finisher; that is, given that Christ is author and finisher of their faith, and since Christ's mission was already completed, the names of those who are to receive that faith have been sealed and cannot be added to or removed.


[Pro 3:12 KJV]
12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son [in whom] he delighteth.

[Heb 12:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Heb 12:5-9 KJV]
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

 

[brightfame52]

roger

God made all law and commandment pertaining to salvation save Christ, to pass away.

Hi Roger, could you maybe elaborate on this statement ? Some may get the notion that salvation was by keeping the law before the death of Christ. And now that Christ has died, we no longer need to keep the law for salvation.

 

[journeyman]

He loves only those who have been covered by Christ's offering

This is simply not true. It's the ungodly Jesus died for.

God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Rom.5:8

Christ's offering because they have been covered by Christ's offering. In the spiritual sense, God does not love everyone-- God loves first, and those He loves, chastises, not the reverse. Heb 12 is addressed to the elect because they alone are the only ones who will be given a true faith, and of which faith, is Christ the author and finisher; that is, given that Christ is author and finisher of their faith, and since Christ's mission was already completed, the names of those who are to receive that faith have been sealed and cannot be added to or removed.


[Pro 3:12 KJV]
12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son [in whom] he delighteth.

[Heb 12:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Heb 12:5-9 KJV]
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I guess there's no reason to tell them to endure chastisement then. How could anyone being so instructed, turn out to be a bastard? In your view, it couldn't even happen.
I think the problem here is, the more intimately we know our Lord, the more filthy we should see our own selves.
How does being flat on your face because of remorse before God signify pride? What a screw job.

 

[rogerg]

Hi Roger, could you maybe elaborate on this statement ? Some may get the notion that salvation was by keeping the law before the death of Christ. And now that Christ has died, we no longer need to keep the law for salvation.

I'll try brightfame52 - sorry for any confusion. Regarding salvation, only the law of Christ has ever had spiritual efficacy unto salvation. I guess one could say the law of sin and death also has spiritual efficacy but unto death, not salvation. I did NOT intend to imply that salvation was ever possible, nor could ever be possible, by an individual's keeping of the law - salvation from Adam and Eve onwards has always been, and can only be through, Jesus Christ. I believe that the keeping of the law is still relevant insofar as it provides a standard for men to follow in the conduct of their affairs with each other, but should not be understood as able to bring salvation - working the works of law for salvation brings death not salvation
I think the confusion I may have caused is found in when Christ became the Saviour. I believe He became Saviour from before the foundation of the world. Likewise, law, sin, and death entered in (in my opinion) in the garden of Eden.
Now, even though Christ was Saviour from before the foundation of the world, His role as Saviour couldn't be (and I'm not sure of the best word to use here?) activated (?), brought to fruition(?), until His mission was completed on the cross. The law and commandment Christ made to pass away, was the law and judgment that was brought to life in the garden. I refer to it as the law of law and became the progenitor of the Jewish law of the Levitical priesthood, and also of the laws of the gentiles.
The question then becomes, what happened to those who were covered by Christ as Saviour but died before the completion of His mission on Earth? I believe they waited in Hell, but that Hell was not a place of judgment or torment. Instead, for those covered by Christ, it was a place of waiting for the cross, after which, they went into the new spiritual Jerusalem, the new Holy City. The others, I believe, will remain there but not in torment, until judgment day.
Now I realize everyone has different opinions on this and mine is just one of many and am not sure I have everything perfectly correct. I don't know how you perceive it but would be interested to hear it.


[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[1Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

[Rev 13:8 KJV]
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[rogerg]

This is simply not true. It's the ungodly Jesus died for.

God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Rom.5:8

The "us" are only the elect, not everyone. Had Christ died for everyone, then everyone must become saved.
Rom 5:1 clearly tells us they are of the elect -- they are of those justified by Christ - not everyone is.
The "faith" in 5:1, is faith given as a fruit if the Spirit which originated from and by Christ's faith.
It can't be both ways. Any whom Christ has died for have had their sin forgiven. If forgiven,
then judgment can no longer be levied against them.

[Rom 5:1 KJV]
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Those saved are of the ungodly too - they're sinners every bit as sinful as the
the unsaved. That's what makes God so incredibly gracious and merciful - that He saves those whom in no wise deserve it. I know, it's very difficult concept/doctrine for us to comprehend.

I guess there's no reason to tell them to endure chastisement then. How could anyone being so instructed, turn out to be a bastard? In your view, it couldn't even happen.
I think the problem here is, the more intimately we know our Lord, the more filthy we should see our own selves.
How does being flat on your face because of remorse before God signify pride? What a screw job.

Huh? I don't get your point? They would be bastards if they aren't chastised, not if they are.

 

[journeyman]

The "us" are only the elect, not everyone. Had Christ died for everyone, then everyone must become saved.

Been through this too. Jesus plainly told people to repent. There's no reason to do so, if people can't repent.
You say scripture makes sense to you. The Ninevites repented when Jonah preached. How did those pagans repent?

Rom 5:1 clearly tells us they are of the elect -- they are of those justified by Christ - not everyone is.
The "faith" in 5:1, is faith given as a fruit if the Spirit which originated from and by Christ's faith.
It can't be both ways. Any whom Christ has died for have had their sin forgiven. If forgiven,
then judgment can no longer be levied against them.

[Rom 5:1 KJV]
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

They believed when they saw him alive after being executed. There's no arbitrary reason here.

Those saved are of the ungodly too - they're sinners every bit as sinful as the
the unsaved. That's what makes God so incredibly gracious and merciful - that He saves those whom in no wise deserve it. I know, it's very difficult concept/doctrine for us to comprehend.

I don't think you quite understand that Jesus died for all who sinned against him. Even those who sinned against him by having him crucified. That's what the OT sacrifice shows...man acknowledging his sin, sin that was inflicted on the Son of God. I don't think you clearly see how Jesus gives people who have sinned against him time to repent.

Huh? I don't get your point? They would be bastards if they aren't chastised, not if they are.

No. It's if they endure chastisment. Oftentimes people don't.