Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

So, regarding salvation, some works for it are okay and some aren't?

As the only "works" in question are of the Mosaic Law, none of those things can bring salvation.
If they were able, there would be no use for the Lord to suffer and die.
Circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping etc., are worthless.

Unfortunately, some have taken the fraudulent doctrine of "works" to its illogical conclusion and condemned... hearing the gospel, believing the gospel, repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, charity, and even enduring faithfully till the end.
All these things must be done in order to be saved on the last day.
"Anti-works" purveyors are pushing a devilish idea by fraudulently including the really necessary aspects of faith.

 

[Hopeful]

So, if each person's conscience is different, then each person will be judged differently with no
basis other than that?

I can't say.
I am not the Judge.
If eating in the false god's temple is OK with you, eat away.
If eating in the false god's temple is a sin to you, don't eat, for conscience sake.

 

[rogerg]

Anti-works" purveyors are pushing a devilish idea by including the really necessary aspects of faith.

What do you think these verses mean?

[Heb 7:12, 18-19 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

[rogerg]

I can't say.
I am not the Judge.
If eating in the false god's temple is OK with you, eat away.
If eating in the false god's temple is a sin to you, don't eat, for conscience sake.

Wait... according to you, we are each to be judged on different criteria, yet you
are unable to tell us what those are so we might satisfy them? How would we know
when, and if, we are successful? Just because we think we are?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

After all that, your comment was still off the wall ! I showed you why. Eph 2:1,5 showed us that Paul understood that before quickening man is dead. How can a dead person repent ? Cant, dont have the ability because he dead in sin.

He's saying they were dead by walking after the lust of the flesh. He's not saying they can't repent of it.
Paul teaches no one is saved by works of the law, but Paul took a vow, putting himself under the law in the eyes of Jews who believed in Jesus (Acts 2:18-24) also followed the law. Why? Because,

unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 1Cor.9:20

Then, they decide the gentile believers

keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Acts 21:25

These are laws Moses commanded. Why are the Apostles putting gentiles under these aspects of the law? Because,

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil.
Rom.4:14-16

It wasn't belief in practicing the law that was the problem. It was thinking the law made you righteous apart from what ht shows, which is that only God is righteous by law, as he overpowered death. Also that mankind is unrighteous, as sin is compared to slapping God in the face, as he bore from mankind.

 

[rogerg]

I can't say.
I am not the Judge.
If eating in the false god's temple is OK with you, eat away.
If eating in the false god's temple is a sin to you, don't eat, for conscience sake.

Most, if not everyone, based upon their conscience, believes they've satisfied
God's requirements for salvation in their own way. So, you're saying then that regardless of what
their own way is, as long as their conscience is clear, they'll be saved? Is that correct?

 

[brightfame52]

Why can't one dead in trespasses and sins change their mind about doing those killing things?

Because they dead. How can a corpse change their mind ?

 

[brightfame52]

He's saying they were dead by walking after the lust of the flesh. He's not saying they can't repent of it.
Paul teaches no one is saved by works of the law, but Paul took a vow, putting himself under the law in the eyes of Jews who believed in Jesus (Acts 2:18-24) also followed the law. Why? Because,

unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 1Cor.9:20

Then, they decide the gentile believers

keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Acts 21:25

These are laws Moses commanded. Why are the Apostles putting gentiles under these aspects of the law? Because,

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil.
Rom.4:14-16

It wasn't belief in practicing the law that was the problem. It was thinking the law made you righteous apart from what ht shows, which is that only God is righteous by law, as he overpowered death. Also that mankind is unrighteous, as sin is compared to slapping God in the face, as he bore from mankind.

If you dead you cant perform an action. The death is spiritual so the no spiritual action can be performed.

 

[brightfame52]

journeyman

He's saying they were dead by walking after the lust of the flesh. He's not saying they can't repent of it.

A spiritually dead person cant just stop living as a spiritually dead person, so he cant repent. And the chief characteristic of a spiritually dead person, is that some how, some way, salvation, being right with God, is always conditioned on him or herself. See false religion, being moral, sincere, good husband, father, employee or boss, honest, all that and more, when we base our salvation on any of those things, our faith, religion etc, our acceptance with God on any of those things, we are walking as spiritually dead people walk and according to the flesh, and its impossible to change that type of thinking, its part of the dead sin nature. The only hope of repentance is if God gives us a new birth by the Spirit.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If you dead you cant perform an action. The death is spiritual so the no spiritual action can be performed.

You're dead wrong here, because all people ever born were born spiritually alive,

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom.9:7

Paul goes on to say,

but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It was only after he aquired the knowledge of good and evil that he "died." And spiritual death isn't instantaineous,

Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy. Pro.29:1

After many corrections you understand.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

journeyman
A spiritually dead person cant just stop living as a spiritually dead person, so he cant repent.

The YLT is a very good translation of Gen.2:17, which says,

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Juveniles don't die spiritually the moment they steal their first candybar, but they do feel like they're killing something good inside and I know this, because that's how I felt as a child when I said my first bad word. I felt really bad, but over time I felt less bad and then the queen mother didn't bother me a bit.
But please do't tell me that because my sin no longer bothered me, I had no sense of God left. I will say my sense of God wasn't very good, but I believed he existed. And yes, I know demons also believe and tremble, but apparently unlike humans, fallen angels are unable to repent.

brightflame52
And the chief characteristic of a spiritually dead person, is that some how, some way, salvation, being right with God, is always conditioned on him or herself.

No it isn'. It's conditioned on what Jesus said,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

Do you understand what Jesus is saying?

brightflame52
See false religion, being moral, sincere, good husband, father, employee or boss, honest, all that and more, when we base our salvation on any of those things, our faith, religion etc, our acceptance with God on any of those things, we are walking as spiritually dead people walk and according to the flesh, and its impossible to change that type of thinking, its part of the dead sin nature.

What it actually shows is that unsaved people display the capacity for God given characteristics they were born into this world with.

brightflame52
The only hope of repentance is if God gives us a new birth by the Spirit.

Yes and that will happen when the sinner realizes how God put up the sin of being nailed to a cross, instead of bashing in the heads of his tormentors.
And guess what my friend? If that doesn't cause a heart of repentance in anyone, then let that anyone imagine his own family member being subjected to what our Lord was. Start singing.

 

[rogerg]

The only hope of repentance is if God gives us a new birth by the Spirit.

outstanding on the whole post, brightfame52

 

[rogerg]

Yes and that will happen when the sinner realizes how God put up the sin of being nailed to a cross, instead of bashing in the heads of his tormentors.
And guess what my friend? If that doesn't cause a heart of repentance in anyone, then let that anyone imagine his own family member being subjected to what our Lord was. Start singing.

The unsaved can never realize that.
The gospel is hidden to all unless and until becoming saved and born again by God. It is not within our power to give to ourselves spiritual life, sight or wisdom because we are dead in sin. Notice below, that unsaved man's wisdom simply cannot comprehend things spiritual. It can only be taught by, and learned through, the Holy Ghost (1Co 2:13).
Man is born spiritually blind (2 Co 4:4). All are sinners from the womb, and as soon as born, speak lies (Psa 58:3). No one in a natural unsaved state can understand spiritual truth (Rom 3:11)

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[brightfame52]

You're dead wrong here, because all people ever born were born spiritually alive,

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom.9:7

Paul goes on to say,

but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It was only after he aquired the knowledge of good and evil that he "died." And spiritual death isn't instantaineous,

Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy. Pro.29:1

After many corrections you understand.

Oh no friend, when one is spiritually dead, its a wrap, they are like the gentiles Paul referred to in Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The natural man dead in sin has only one hope and that is God has purposed to quicken them, which means make alive Eph 2:1,5 See for something to be made alive, its because it was dead !

 

[JLB]

The only way to be saved is to believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16




JLB

 

[rogerg]

The only way to be saved is to believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No one can believe in Him UNTIL saved. The "whosoever" represents the elect/saved.
See brightfame52's post above about being spiritually dead.

 

[brightfame52]

The YLT is a very good translation of Gen.2:17, which says,

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Juveniles don't die spiritually the moment they steal their first candybar, but they do feel like they're killing something good inside and I know this, because that's how I felt as a child when I said my first bad word. I felt really bad, but over time I felt less bad and then the queen mother didn't bother me a bit.
But please do't tell me that because my sin no longer bothered me, I had no sense of God left. I will say my sense of God wasn't very good, but I believed he existed. And yes, I know demons also believe and tremble, but apparently unlike humans, fallen angels are unable to repent.

No it isn'. It's conditioned on what Jesus said,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

Do you understand what Jesus is saying?

What it actually shows is that unsaved people display the capacity for God given characteristics they were born into this world with.

Yes and that will happen when the sinner realizes how God put up the sin of being nailed to a cross, instead of bashing in the heads of his tormentors.
And guess what my friend? If that doesn't cause a heart of repentance in anyone, then let that anyone imagine his own family member being subjected to what our Lord was. Start singing.

You dont get it, men are spiritually dead friend. Any spiritual obedience is absolutely impossible from a spiritually dead person. Just like any physical obedience is impossible for a physically dead person.

Now men by nature can do the semblance of spiritual obedience, like repenting faith and all those things, but guess what ? They are all dead works Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

They dead because they came from a spiritually dead sinner. In fact when and if God saves us, He gives repentance from dead works Heb 6:1

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[JLB]

No one can believe in Him UNTIL saved. The "whosoever" represents the elect/saved.
See brightfame52's post above about being spiritually dead.

Your theory is against the words of Jesus Christ.


The only way to be saved is to believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



A person must hear and believe the Gospel to be saved.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Please explain how a person is saved, that has never heard of Jesus Christ?


Yours is a Christ-less Gospel.




JLB

 

[rogerg]

he only way to be saved is to believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

No, it says "whosoever" believes. To that point, the verse does not define who those are.
The elect believes in Jesus, so it could be, and in fact is, them.

Please explain how a person is saved, that has never heard of Jesus Christ?


Yours is a Christ-less Gospel.

God makes the commitment that all whom He chose for salvation will hear the gospel and of Christ - hear both physically and spiritually and come to faith in Him through the fruit of the Spirit.

How is that a Christ-less Gospel?

What happens to those who for reasons outside of their control - infirmity, location, age, etc
are not able to hear the Gospel? That makes yours the Christ-less gospel.

 

[Hopeful]

Wait... according to you, we are each to be judged on different criteria, yet you
are unable to tell us what those are so we might satisfy them? How would we know
when, and if, we are successful? Just because we think we are?

Do you have a conscience?
Do you know what it is to offend your conscience?
That is sin, the offending of your conscience.
Living righteously is not offending your conscience.

Now, everybody of sane mind has a conscience, and it is from God just as your life is from God.
All of our consciences know it is bad to kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. (5 more commandments)