I know there seems to be a misunderstanding for you Admins, because of your reliance on the book of Revelation. If you took a moment to see the thread I made today on the kingdom of heaven not coming with observation, it has all the verses from the Gospel to make it all simpler for you to not rely too much on Revelations only.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Does Demon Possession get confused with the Concurrent Resurrection of the Spirit Body within the Physical?
- Thread starter Terraphim
- Start date
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Quicken means we are Spiritually made alive in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth where before we spiritually dead living in the lust of the flesh.
You never told me to reject the NT writings, but you did say we are to learn from the examples of the Pharisees, then I proceeded to show how Jesus condemned them so why would anyone want to follow their examples.
You said in your post #133 If you wish to try and judge who is a "true Christian" and to those you say never "really believed" in Christ because of the way you wish to see it "according" to the NT writings, then you have closed yourself off from learning from the examples of the Pharisees, who they themselves believed in and held in high esteem the manuscripts and the oracles of God. Those who call themselves Christian today are no different, they view the NT the same way the Pharisees viewed the old.
All I see is that the Pharisees only put on a form of Godliness like so many today, but deny the power there of. If the Pharisees were so Godly then why did Jesus condemn them. They could not further the teachings of Christ as they were the ones who had Him put to death.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
I am talking about the end time sounding of the seven trumpets we read about in Revelation as that has not happened yet, not has the resurrection of the dead who lay in their graves.
Noah found favor in the Lord as he was a righteous man before Him. God does not give favor or gifts to those who are not righteous before Him. Those who willfully sin are none of His own.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
They new the voice of their Master and no one could have plucked them out of His hands.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
ezrider
Member
I have but on simple question. Please DO NOT respond with anything but a very SIMPLE ANSWER.
Do know know the difference between FOLLOWING something as opposed to LEARNING A LESSON?
By the substance of your answers thus far, I think not.
That's what I have been trying to tell you all along. If you would had said that in the beginning then we would not have had to dance around with everything else you have said about the resurrection as that only happens when Christ returns.
yes
It's not the Administrators reliance on anything, but only my reliance on what has already been written in scripture. If you can not continue in here about the resurrection or the kingdom of heaven as we disagree on so many points then I am not going to take my time in a new thread on the same subject as I do not have the time.
If you are going to continue in this manner about the Administrators or any of the staff then I am done and bid you a good day.
stovebolts
However, I must respond to this.
Free, an administrator, has for the second time mentioned Gnosticism as being somehow relevant to my beliefs.
This is not true, and I have already made that clear. If reference to Gnosticism is going to be used whenever someone has well considered opinions which are contrary to the administration, and used for the purpose of intimating a threat of banning or expulsion, then the administration is using bully-boy tactics. An authority who uses bully-boy tactics has lost his dignity, and is no longer a dignitary.
From Merriam-Webster dictionary:
I have been very clear about the fact that I believe that Christian salvation, my salvation, is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God, and that salvation, even incremental salvation, is not based upon exalted knowledge, but only simple knowledge concerning faith. I have not attacked the administration by making an accusation of this sort about their theological framework, and neither will I accept such an attack by the administration without issuing a firm reproof. You, sirs, have been overbearing, and I will not stand for it. I have not tolerated it in Church settings, and I will not tolerate it here. The Church is failing in this world. It is failing in so many ways that it has become a mockery to Christians and others as well. Wear your dog collars, and pronounce your dogma all you will. The Church is continuing to reform, whether or not you like it. God is in control, not the establishment. You all can follow hirelings if you wish, but when the blind follow the blind, the end thereof is in a ditch. And guess what the ditch is full of? It isn't irrigation water.
Be blessed, be well.
Trying to catch up here. I find that I can't possibly reply to everything that I would like to, from where I have left off.
However, I must respond to this.
Free, an administrator, has for the second time mentioned Gnosticism as being somehow relevant to my beliefs.
This is not true, and I have already made that clear. If reference to Gnosticism is going to be used whenever someone has well considered opinions which are contrary to the administration, and used for the purpose of intimating a threat of banning or expulsion, then the administration is using bully-boy tactics. An authority who uses bully-boy tactics has lost his dignity, and is no longer a dignitary.
From Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of gnosticism
: the thought and practice especially of various cults of late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries distinguished by the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosisDefinition of gnosis
: esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvationI have been very clear about the fact that I believe that Christian salvation, my salvation, is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God, and that salvation, even incremental salvation, is not based upon exalted knowledge, but only simple knowledge concerning faith. I have not attacked the administration by making an accusation of this sort about their theological framework, and neither will I accept such an attack by the administration without issuing a firm reproof. You, sirs, have been overbearing, and I will not stand for it. I have not tolerated it in Church settings, and I will not tolerate it here. The Church is failing in this world. It is failing in so many ways that it has become a mockery to Christians and others as well. Wear your dog collars, and pronounce your dogma all you will. The Church is continuing to reform, whether or not you like it. God is in control, not the establishment. You all can follow hirelings if you wish, but when the blind follow the blind, the end thereof is in a ditch. And guess what the ditch is full of? It isn't irrigation water.
Be blessed, be well.
Slow down as Free never said you were Gnostic, but your views seemed similar like their views. All you had to do was to assure him you were not Gnostic and that would of been the end. Be careful how you read other's post. There was no threat or attack directed at you and I am sorry you took it that way. We do not ban members on their views, but only when they continue to violate the Terms of Service (ToS). We do not put up with bulling anyone and those that do will be banned.
ezrider
Member
Great, then you should have no issue with anything I've said.
Seeing that Jesus condemned the Pharisees the only thing we need to follow is the Torah that they read from because they talked the talk, but they themselves did not walk the walk. Anyone can speak the word as we believe in the word, but not always the one who speaks that truly does not have Christ in them. This is the point I am trying to make.
Please, slow down a bit. Not one thing I have said is "for the purpose of intimating a threat of banning or expulsion." I am merely pointing out some similarities of your beliefs to other belief systems which are contradictory to Christianity.
But you have also said the Bible teaches reincarnation, and that is a grievous error. Did you read the article I linked to previously? Here is the first half of the abstract:
"Modern proponents of ancient Gnosticism claim that Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and the early Church fathers embraced reincarnation. However, their attempts to associate reincarnation with early Christianity belie their metaphysical bias, which is the basis of their historical revisionism.
Because their hermeneutics are flawed, the neo-Gnostic interpretation of Scripture differs significantly from traditional Christian interpretations. In order to justify their doctrines of karma and reincarnation, neo-Gnostics revise Church history so that it reflects their metaphysical worldview. Their attempt to revise church history, creates the illusion that the Bible teaches reincarnation. However, neither the Old or New Testaments teaches reincarnation, which is why the neo-Gnostic preconceptions are baseless.
The neo-Gnostic claim that the early fathers embraced reincarnation is also false. Indeed, the overwhelming evidence indicates that they repudiated reincarnation. Moreover, the neo-Gnostic assumption that Origen embraced transmigration because he assimilated Neo-Platonic ideas, is baseless. While he investigated the subject of transmigration, he rejected it because it was not compatible with Christian belief."
https://theses.gla.ac.uk/7845/
The Church is failing for a number of reasons, but lack of belief in transmigration of souls is not one of them. In fact, it highlights one of the reasons the church is failing--New Age beliefs, and those of other religions, that have crept into churches and are accepted almost without question by many.
There is a reason why we are to study and consider 2000 years of Church history and teachings, because there was one faith given to saints and we must not stray from that by incorporating false, contradictory teachings from other belief systems.
If this includes belief in reincarnation and other New Age and other religious beliefs, then those that follow this reformation will end in utter ruin.
Of course God is in control, but God works through "the establishment," and will not contradict what he has made plain in Scripture. It is his revelation, not ours, and we cannot just interpret things as we want. Again, there is 2000 years of Church history and teaching that must be taken into account. To go against that is to set ourselves up as the sole arbiters of truth.
But this is just begging the question as to who it is that is blind. When people who profess Christ also believe things are taught in Scripture which have never been accepted as orthodox teaching in the history of the Church, this is red flag.
I should not bother to reply, as you have not apologized for your offense. Still, you are one of the few people who is presenting a well elucidated discourse, though skewed according to tradition, and ignoring the proofs that I have presented.
Having said that, I find that I should take the opportunity to further express my perspective on salvation in general, such that you may find what fault as you may. I have mentioned the term incremental salvation a couple of times, but I have not yet defined it. I have presented other descriptive terms which apply to the four primary courses of the juxtaposed heavens, but I reserved the four salvations for another thread. Given that I have been falsely accused of having beliefs similar to Gnostic salvation, accused as a result of presenting a comprehensive doctrinal framework which is not mainstream, I see that I must now make my soteriological perspective clear.
So, the common salvation is the salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God.
This is the salvation from the pollutions of the world 1Pet2:20, which are the pollutions that result from sin. That is from when the believer's soul formerly existed in the foundation of the world, but after salvation was moved to the foundation of the solid earth, that is, into the first foundation of the New Jerusalem. The wells of salvation are;
1) Salvation from the world 1Pet2:20
2) Salvation of the soul Heb10:39
3) Salvation from God's wrath Rom5:9,10/ 1Thes1:4,10/ 1Thes5:2,4,9
4) Salvation of the rock (white stone) Psa89:19,26/ Rev2:17
Salvation, incrementally, is by grace through qualification. The qualification of the first salvation is faith. None of the salvations are by works, but all are by grace.
Incremental salvation allows for the complete integration of scripture as understood in a comprehensive manner.
For example; Mat10:22/ Mat24:13/ Rom5:9,10/ Heb9:28
Be blessed, be well.
There are common elements in all religious perspectives. The element which primarily distinguishes Christianity from other religions is salvation by grace through faith, and not by works or exalted knowledge. That is the very essence of Christianity, and not contradictory to it. An inclination to malign and marginalize me by grouping me with Gnostics, contrary to my clear statements concerning the common salvation, is reprehensible and deserved to be rebuked.
Having said that, I find that I should take the opportunity to further express my perspective on salvation in general, such that you may find what fault as you may. I have mentioned the term incremental salvation a couple of times, but I have not yet defined it. I have presented other descriptive terms which apply to the four primary courses of the juxtaposed heavens, but I reserved the four salvations for another thread. Given that I have been falsely accused of having beliefs similar to Gnostic salvation, accused as a result of presenting a comprehensive doctrinal framework which is not mainstream, I see that I must now make my soteriological perspective clear.
So, the common salvation is the salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God.
This is the salvation from the pollutions of the world 1Pet2:20, which are the pollutions that result from sin. That is from when the believer's soul formerly existed in the foundation of the world, but after salvation was moved to the foundation of the solid earth, that is, into the first foundation of the New Jerusalem. The wells of salvation are;
1) Salvation from the world 1Pet2:20
2) Salvation of the soul Heb10:39
3) Salvation from God's wrath Rom5:9,10/ 1Thes1:4,10/ 1Thes5:2,4,9
4) Salvation of the rock (white stone) Psa89:19,26/ Rev2:17
Salvation, incrementally, is by grace through qualification. The qualification of the first salvation is faith. None of the salvations are by works, but all are by grace.
Incremental salvation allows for the complete integration of scripture as understood in a comprehensive manner.
For example; Mat10:22/ Mat24:13/ Rom5:9,10/ Heb9:28
Be blessed, be well.
Free has nothing to apologize for as he has been showing you grace.
Here is the meaning of the member name you chose to use even if you use too "r" so what does this say about yourself and what you believe in the false teachings you are trying to teach others. Friend, you need to be very concerned about your soul and where you will spend eternity.
The word Teraphim is explained in classical rabbinical literature as meaning disgraceful things (dismissed by modern etymologists), and in many English translations of the Bible it is translated as idols, or household god(s).
Teraphim are mentioned in Hosea 3:4, where it says that "the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or teraphim." As in the narrative of Micah's Idol the teraphim is closely associated with the ephod, and both are mentioned elsewhere in connection with divination;[1] it is thus a possibility that the Teraphim were involved with the process of cleromancy. The teraphim were outlawed in Josiah's reform (2 Kings 23:24).
In the Book of Zechariah (Zechariah 10:2) it states: "For the teraphim utter nonsense, and the diviners see lies; the dreamers tell false dreams, and give empty consolation. Therefore the people wander like sheep; they are afflicted for want of a shepherd."
In the Book of Ezekiel 21:21, Nebuchadnezzar uses divination to determine which rebel to attack first: belomancy (i.e., casting of arrows inscribed with names of projected victims); necromancy (teraphim were religious images sometimes expected to convey messages to the living [see Zech 10.2]); and hepatoscopy (making predictions based on the configurations and markings of animal livers).
Teraphim - Wikipedia
I am also not sure what it is you want me to apologize for, what offense it is that I have caused. I read your article and, with all due respect, you completely ignore the immediate context of verses and so make all sorts of connections between different things where there are none. Context is king; it is one of the most important things in understanding anything one reads, never mind Scripture. I think I have read most everything you have posted and I believe I have addressed all your proofs.
That is, of course, just one of the many things that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. A personal, triune God is another. That God is love is another, and is perhaps a better understanding of the very essence of Christianity. Everything else, including salvation by grace, flows from this.
I haven't grouped you with Gnostics. I have stated that your belief in reincarnation is found in neo-Gnostic, New Age, Buddhist, and Hindu beliefs, never in the Bible and so never in Christianity. I even provided a link to prove my point. You can still claim a Christian understanding of salvation but have errant beliefs from other belief systems.
Biblically, it seems to me, there is only one salvation, although it is spoken of in past, present, and future terms--justification (or forgiveness), sanctification, and glorification, respectively. I suppose that could look like salvation is a process or incremental. However, it isn't that there are actual steps, as though one is first saved from the world, then there is the salvation of the soul, and then salvation from God's wrath. Those are all part and parcel of the one salvation. In speaking of salvation in past terms alone, it is to be saved from the effects of sin, which include guilt, death, God's wrath, despair, and ignorance of truth. But salvation is very comprehensive, with many different aspects to it.
Consider what Dane Ortlund says:
Ponder the rich variety of ways the New Testament speaks of our rescue in Christ. With each I’ve identified two texts that teach that aspect of salvation, and then given in parentheses that blessing’s opposite (what that aspect of salvation delivers us from).
Justification—the law-court metaphor (Rom. 5:1; Titus 3:7) (no longer condemned)
Sanctification—the cultic metaphor (1 Cor. 1:2; 1 Thess. 4:3) (no longer defiled)
Adoption—the familial metaphor (Rom. 8:15; 1 John 3:1–2) (no longer orphaned)
Reconciliation—the relational metaphor (Rom. 5:1–11; 2 Cor. 5:18–20) (no longer estranged)
Washing—the physical-cleansing metaphor (1 Cor. 6:11; Titus 3:5) (no longer dirty)
Redemption—the slave-market metaphor (Eph. 1:7; Rev. 14:3–4) (no longer enslaved)
Purchase—the financial metaphor (1 Cor. 6:20; 2 Pet. 2:1) (no longer in debt)
Liberation—the imprisonment metaphor (Gal. 5:1; Rev. 1:5) (no longer imprisoned)
New birth—the physical-generation metaphor (John 3:3–7; 1 Pet. 1:3, 23) (no longer nonexistent)
Illumination—the light metaphor (John 12:35–36; 2 Cor. 4:4–6) (no longer blind)
Resurrection—the bodily metaphor (Eph. 2:6; Col. 3:1) (no longer dead)
And union with Christ, the organic or spatial metaphor, is the master-picture. If you are in Christ, you get all these benefits. It’s all or nothing.
(Ortlund, Dane C.. Deeper (Union) (pp. 62-63). Crossway. Kindle Edition.)
From our perspective, it begins from the point of justification, when one places their faith in Christ and his death and resurrection. From God's point of view, it begins with his election of persons, but there is still a definite point in time that one passes from death to life (1 John 3:14).
ezrider
Member
I have continually stressed the words "learn from" and you continually restate my intention as the word "follow." Why is that? In your previous post you answered "Yes" when I asked if you understood the difference, but I'm doubting that.
Are you telling me when you read the scriptures concerning the Pharisees, that there is absolutely nothing to learn from them and what they did that you might consider and apply to your own Christian walk?