Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

I recognize your gospel as a false Gospel that is nowhere to be found in scripture.


what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

This is the type of interpretation someone comes to when they just skim along the top of scripture.
Again, if you believe that faith is of yourself, then you have just violated the verse you posted, because,
your faith is in yourself, not in Christ. Do you not see below - that to believe in Christ is given?
How do you miss that?

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[JLB]

This is the type of interpretation someone comes to when they just skim along the top of scripture.
Again, if you believe that faith is of yourself, then you have just violated the verse you posted, because,
your faith is in yourself, not in Christ. Do you not see below - that to believe in Christ is given?
How do you miss that?

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

This is the typical “interpretation“ of someone who projects their own preconceived perspective onto the passage; in which the passage is lifted out of context.

Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.
Phillipians 1:27-30

• not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Paul’s admonition to these brothers in Christ is to “continue” to believe in the presence of their adversaries and not be afraid, which is proof of their salvation. IOW, Paul is speaking to those who are already saved, and need to continue to believe in the face of their adversaries.

Because they have the Spirit, which enables them, and empowers them to not only continue to believe, but to also suffer for His sake.


Again, grace is the God given ability to do what we can not do on our own, which is not only to believe, but to obey.

The Spirit of grace empowers us to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

Believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved…

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

• Only those who believe in Him are saved.
• Unbelievers are not saved.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:12

Only those who believe in Him are saved.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31


Why are you against people believing in Him to be saved?




JLB

 

[rogerg]

with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

"striving together" : preaching of the faith of Christ as the foundation of the gospel. Christ's faith brought forth salvation to fruition, not ours.

Paul’s admonition to these brothers in Christ is to “continue” to believe in the presence of their adversaries and not be afraid, which is proof of their salvation. IOW, Paul is speaking to those who are already saved, and need to continue to believe in the face of their adversaries.

Because they have the Spirit, which enables them, and empowers them to not only continue to believe, but to also suffer for His sake.

Where do you find "to continue to believe" in the verse? It says "to believe". Belief doesn't come and go based upon circumstances or whim if it is a true belief: one either believes or they don't. If it is a true belief, adversity cannot change or remove confidence in the object of the belief. Only when it is of a person's creation, can it be lost. If God given, then it can't be removed because it is by God's power that it exists, not by the believer's.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved…

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

This is saying that Christ's title is the Saviour and that it is through the Saviour one must become saved. It does not address how salvation occurs.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

They by the wayside, of themselves, cannot believe - they have been blinded by satan. If the mind is blind,
it cannot heal itself

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Salvation has two parts: first, positionally saved when taken from under law of sin and death during the life of those whom God had chosen and second, the actual realization of salvation at the end of time: the salvation in the day of the Lord's is from His judgment and wrath. To experience the second, we must have gone through the first. So, whenever we read of becoming saved that it occurs after the receiving of faith, it is the second one that is in view, not the first

[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[Rom 5:9 KJV]
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

They had been saved positionally and also born again. As is with all who become saved, (Paul was) preaching the gospel to them. From that, and having/by the Holy Spirit, they did learn. Again, the "will be saved" is referring to the promise of salvation in/from the wrath of day of the Lord.

Why are you against people believing in Him to be saved?

I explained that when the Bible refers to salvation after the receiving of faith it is talking about salvation from God's wrath in the day of the Lord,

Why are you against people believing in Him to be saved?

Because it is a wrong doctrine: It attempts to take the glory of God from Him and to place it with man instead.
Further, it is directly against the doctrine of Jesus Christ as Saviour, as it is He alone who imparts salvation,
not us. Were it up to anyone of themselves to produce a belief in Him for salvation, then without question, they would have saved themselves.
In short, it is a violation of the gospel and Jesus Christ, and as such, I have a responsibility to provide, to the best of my limited ability, a defense against it.

[Isa 42:8 KJV]
8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

They had been saved positionally and also born again. As is with all who become saved, (Paul was) preaching the gospel to them. From that, and having/by the Holy Spirit, they did learn. Again, the "will be saved" is referring to the promise of salvation in/from the wrath of day of the Lord.

A person must be and is saved Spiritually by the sanctifying work of the Spirit or New Birth, in order to believe the Truth of the Gospel they are effectually called by 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see the order here, God has Loved, chosen , gave them Sanctification of the Spirit or New birth, then calls them by the Gospel to the obtaining of the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So its vitally important that the one who is called be first Sanctified by the Spirit, set apart Spiritually in order to believe the Gospel.

The word Salvation here in 2 Thess 2:13 I believe is not eternal salvation, but Spiritual Salvation from a spiritually dead state. But of course the elect are chosen to eternal salvation, but i dont think thats the salvation spoken of in this verse. So one must be saved spiritually, in order to hear and believe the Gospel.

 

[journeyman]

Is this a serious question on your part, or are you just looking to debate/disagree?

Yes, I'm serious. Why did God count Abrahams' faith as righteousness to him, when according to Calvanists, he had nothing to do with it? Go ahead.

 

[journeyman]

I just told you if one believes it because they are sheep.

Then you believe demons are sheep,

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. Jas.2:19

Abraham believed because He was one of Gods lost Sheep that was found.

Sheep hear and follow.

 

[journeyman]

I recognize your gospel as a false Gospel that is nowhere to be found in scripture.

what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

JLB

Right. They didn't say, " There's nothing you can do.".

 

[rogerg]

So one must be saved spiritually, in order to hear and believe the Gospel.

brightfame52,

I don't think I disagree with your post. My overriding point was to demonstrate that the term or state of the word
"saved", can be used by the Bible in two general yet different contexts. The reason I said positionally, was because I wanted the focus to be on the context of being saved as it will be in the day of the Lord. I believe this a very important distinction to make because many who read the Bible, don't understand there is one, and thereby, perceive a requirement of having to generate faith of themselves as a precursor to becoming saved. In reality, I believe it is referring to a completely different part of salvation: being saved from God's wrath at the end of time. It can easily be mis-interpreted because faith is often (seemingly) phrased in the Bible as being necessary prior to being saved, or should I instead say as salvation coming after faith, hence a requirement for faith which they must satisfy.
Without wanting to go into detail at the time, I used the term positionally as representative of Paul's statement in Romans 8:2, in which, through Christ, he was taken positionally from under the law of sin and death and positionally placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I felt that would suffice for the point at hand.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I guess I should/could have elaborated further but didn't want to become emersed at that time in those aspects, which you are better equipped than I to discuss.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

brightfame52,

I don't think I disagree with your pos

I dont believe you do, I may have introduced my comment the wrong way, didnt mean for you to take it that way.

My overriding point was to demonstrate that the term or state of the word
"saved", can be used by the Bible in two general yet different contexts.

I gathered that, and your right. I see saved from four aspects, the eternal, legal, spiritual, glorification. There must be the eternal, and legal aspects first, then the spiritual aspect, thats when we are able to hear, believe, repent or do any evangelical obedience necessary to be saved subjectively.

The reason I said positionally, was because I wanted the focus to be on the context of being saved as it will be in the day of the Lord.

Yes I believe thats the glorification aspect of salvation Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I believe this a very important distinction to make because many who read the Bible, don't understand there is one, and thereby, perceive a requirement of having to generate faith of themselves as a precursor to becoming saved.

Amen understood

In reality, I believe it is referring to a completely different part of salvation: being saved from God's wrath at the end of time.

Understood and at that time the saints will be glorified with and in Him 2 Thess 1:8-10

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It can easily be mis-interpreted because faith is often (seemingly) phrased in the Bible as being necessary prior to being saved, or should I instead say as salvation coming after faith, hence a requirement for faith which they must satisfy.

I understand, and sometimes saved is referring to that aspect, for instance Rom 5:9, but I also believe that saved can mean being in a saved state, I gave you a study on that remember ? Sometime believing is evidential, it evidences us being already in a saved state.

See faith is required, necessary to be saved subjectively in our experience, but its never required or necessary to get saved. Most people look at faith/believing in order to get saved even though they quote verses that say be saved or shall be saved. But I understand where you coming from so that you protect the integrity of free grace Salvation apart from the acts of men.

And even the requirement of faith and believing needed to be saved, only God the Spirit in the New Birth can meet that requirement in us !

Without wanting to go into detail at the time, I used the term positionally as representative of Paul's statement in Romans 8:2, in which, through Christ, he was taken positionally from under the law of sin and death and positionally placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I felt that would suffice for the point at hand.

I will say that Paul was passed from death to life, as all the elect are Jn 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I guess I should/could have elaborated further but didn't want to become emersed at that time in those aspects, which you are better equipped than I to discuss.

Hope that makes sense.

Understood, and I am what I am by the grace of God, please believe it !

 

[journeyman]

Does any Calvanist know why sheep can wander away from God?

 

[rogerg]

Yes, I'm serious. Why did God count Abrahams' faith as righteousness to him, when according to Calvanists, he had nothing to do with it? Go ahead.

As brightfame52 alluded to, everyone, including Abraham are saved in the same way.
I think what is not obvious in the verse is that there are in a sense two faiths at work, not one:
the faith of Christ and the faith given to Abraham. If we try to interpret the verse as being solely a reference to a faith that was self-generated by Abraham, the pieces won't fit.
To understand Gen 15:6 we cannot just look at it in isolation and assume what the pieces mean, but have to factor in other verses which provide a complete picture. In Rom 4:9 we see that "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness". Faith was "reckoned" to Abraham, meaning calculated or imputed as though it was his when it wasn't. Who's faith? Christ's faith. This because in Phl 3:9 and Rom 4:13, we see that righteousness is "the faith of Christ". So, a faith that is not of Christ has no righteousness of itself for it to reckon righteousness. For Abraham, in order to have righteousness, it had to be of Christ's faith not his faith: righteousness is of His faith (Rom 4:13, Phl 3:9).
In Rom 3:22, we can see that unto those who believe, their belief comes from and by, the faith of Christ.
In Rom 4:5 we can see that "his faith", Christ's faith, is counted for righteousness. Again, because Christ's faith is righteousness, and no other faith can claim it
So, if Abraham had faith reckoned to him for righteousness (Rom 4:9), it was by Christ.
Now, since God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness, and righteousness can only come by Christ,
then that Abraham believed, had to be the result of Christ, not Abraham and Abraham gets no credit for it.
Otherwise, God could not rightfully attribute any righteousness to it; that is, a man-made faith cannot provide righteousness because man's faith has no righteousness (see Phl 3.9) - any righteousness produced by man can only be of the law, and the law only brings judgment, not righteousness: a faith without righteousness cannot give righteousness.

So, to summarize, everything of Gen 15:6, came to Abraham as a gift from God through Christ, as it does with all who become saved.

There's a lot more but this should suffice for now.

[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Rom 4:3 KJV] 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

If we try to interpret the verse as being solely a reference to a faith that was self-generated by Abraham, the pieces won't fit.

Correct, but that is what most in christendom today believe, that faith in salvation is from the natural man, hence if that is the case, faith becomes law keeping Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

This faith is from the law of creation and so its law keeping. Luke calls it the love of God in his version Lk 11:42

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So I caution people whenever you claim that your own natural faith is part of salvation, then you default into a lawkeeping salvation, and we know that bring nothing but the curse.

To understand Gen 15:6 we cannot just look at it in isolation and assume what the pieces mean,

Here with Gen 15:6 I believe the it refers to Christ the seed, it was revealed to Abraham that his seed, Christ is his righteousness. God has made unto us Christ to be righteousness 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Abraham had been given Faith in Christ, his seed, and so it is written Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

How did he see Christs day ? It had to be by God given Faith

Interesting the word for see is the greek word horaō:

1. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
2. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience

Now its the same word Jesus used with nicodemus when He said to him in Jn 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus is the Kingdom of God, so I believe Abraham was born again with the fruit of the Spirit, faith

In Rom 4:5 we can see that "his faith", Christ's faith, is counted for righteousness. Again, because Christ's faith is righteousness, and no other faith can claim it
So, if Abraham had faith reckoned to him for righteousness (Rom 4:9), it was by Christ.

Yes, a rule is to keep in mind is that Christ is our righteousness, its a righteousness outside of us, it cannot be our natural faith, but the imputed righteousness of Christ resulting from His obedience. faithfulness in the covenant with the Father, also faith can mean the object of our faith, which is Christ. The Church acknowledges that Christ is our righteousness Jer 33:16


In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

 

[journeyman]

As brightfame52 alluded to, everyone, including Abraham are saved in the same way.
I think what is not obvious in the verse is that there are in a sense two faiths at work, not one:
the faith of Christ and the faith given to Abraham. If we try to interpret the verse as being solely a reference to a faith that was self-generated by Abraham, the pieces won't fit.

The faith wasn't "generated by Abraham."
It was the result of God speaking to Abraham.
We know very little about the people we read about in the Bible. We don't know how long God and Abraham knew each other before God told him to leave home.

To understand Gen 15:6 we cannot just look at it in isolation and assume what the pieces mean, but have to factor in other verses which provide a complete picture. In Rom 4:9 we see that "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness". Faith was "reckoned" to Abraham, meaning calculated or imputed as though it was his when it wasn't.

Yes it was. Calvanism has two insurmountable problems. One is, recognizing I need Gods' mercy is because of what our Lord Jesus did. That's something any human of normal intelligence can understand. People don't understand because other things are more important to them. Ok? I's not because under no circumstance can anyone consider needing Gods' mercy. The Calvanists' reluctance to see this is born the asnine belief that repentance is something to boast about.
And two, why on earth do Calvanists think our Savior did the things he did? Why is Jesus the most recognizable name on earth?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Jn.14:12

Who's faith? Christ's faith. This because in Phl 3:9 and Rom 4:13, we see that righteousness is "the faith of Christ". So, a faith that is not of Christ has no righteousness of itself for it to reckon righteousness. For Abraham, in order to have righteousness, it had to be of Christ's faith not his faith: righteousness is of His faith (Rom 4:13, Phl 3:9).
In Rom 3:22, we can see that unto those who believe, their belief comes from and by, the faith of Christ.

In Rom.3:22, Paul is saying the "faith of Jesus" is that he didn't use the law (Rom.3:21) to condemn mankind (Rom.3:20.) So by the "faith of Jesus", he doesn't mean, "Jesus had faith in God." He means, "Our faith of Jesus."
The proof of the text is that law witnessed by the prophets, pronounced death to anyone conspiring to kill an innocent man.......but Jesus nailed this statute to the cross. He put it to death. This doesn't mean our Lord condones murder.

In Rom 4:5 we can see that "his faith", Christ's faith, is counted for righteousness. Again, because Christ's faith is righteousness, and no other faith can claim it

In Rom.4:5, "his faith" refers to the sinner, like Abraham (Rom.5:3.) , or David (Rom.4:6), who fully understood the the righteousness of God, who preached forgivness to the repentant.

So, if Abraham had faith reckoned to him for righteousness (Rom 4:9), it was by Christ.
Now, since God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness, and righteousness can only come by Christ,
then that Abraham believed, had to be the result of Christ, not Abraham and Abraham gets no credit for it.

The problem here is , everytime you say, "faith has to be the result of Christ", you don't mean, "the result of what Jesus did on earth." What you're really saying is, "The way Jesus conducted himself, all the things he said and did, are worthless!" You're saying his life had no ability to affect any sinner.

rogerg
Otherwise, God could not rightfully attribute any righteousness to it; that is, a man-made faith cannot provide righteousness because man's faith has no righteousness (see Phl 3.9) - any righteousness produced by man can only be of the law, and the law only brings judgment, not righteousness: a faith without righteousness cannot give righteousness.

The Messiah lived his life in a human body as a man of faith for our welfare. Jesus himself needed no faith, as he is God.

With this in mind, read Phi.3:9 again. Paul is saying "Christs' righteousness" is that he had every right to bash the heads in those who sinned against him..but chose not to. Paul came to know Jesus more deeply through his own suffering,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phi.3:10

 

[brightfame52]

When the Jailer in Acts 16:30 asked what must I do to be saved,

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

He wasn't asking about what qualifying action he could do to get himself saved, for he never used the word get as in get saved, but he used the word be, as be saved. The words be saved here are in the passive voice wherein the subject is the recipient of the action, for he was speaking from a frame of helplessness, hopelessness. Paul's response was not that he should do, act, or perform but to believe, that's promoting Faith and not works. Paul knew that believing was the Gift of God, that is, to believe in Christ savingly wasn't a natural inherent quality of the natural man, believing is having been given the Gift of Faith Eph 2:8 Paul testified to the fact that believing on Christ was something God gives here Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That word given is basically the same word for grace charizomai derived from and the middle voice of charis translated 130 times in the NT as Grace.

So people believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
So now even though technically believing is a doing, which technically is a work, nobody has the ability to believe until God by Grace, by Grace doing, its Gods Grace and Spirit working in the sanctified sinner causing the sinner to believe. No man by nature can truly believe in Christ as Saviour without first being saved by Grace and given the gift of Faith, so it is written 1 Pet 1:21

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Phil 2:13

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The do the Jailer needed to do to be saved, God needed to first worketh in him to do.

So thats how Salvation by works and Faith can be scripturally contrasted, when credit is given to Grace for a person doing the believing, and believing wasn't a natural freewill ability they had of themselves prior to regeneration.

But if we insist that believing was a condition we met prior to being saved by grace, and we did it as natural men, and as a result, God saved us, that's making believing, faith a work we do for salvation.24

 

[brightfame52]

journey

The faith wasn't "generated by Abraham."
It was the result of God speaking to Abraham.

God spoke to a lot of people, did that result in them having faith ? Your answer is incomplete. If you dont believe Abrahams faith was naturally of himself, where did he get it from ?

 

[rogerg]

The do the Jailer needed to do to be saved, God needed to first worketh in him to do.

So thats how Salvation by works and Faith can be scripturally contrasted, when credit is given to Grace for a person doing the believing, and believing wasn't a natural freewill ability they had of themselves prior to regeneration.

But if we insist that believing was a condition we met prior to being saved by grace, and we did it as natural men, and as a result, God saved us, that's making believing, faith a work we do for salvation.24

Outstanding, brightfame52!

 

[rogerg]

Correct, but that is what most in christendom today believe, that faith in salvation is from the natural man, hence if that is the case, faith becomes law keeping Matt 23:23

brightfame52,

I probably should have also included that if we look at the verse closely:

[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

and we think about the interpretation most people try to apply to it, just by the logic of the verse within itself as written, it cannot support the interpretation that righteousness was given Abraham because of his faith. For that interpretation to be correct, it would instead have had to be written as " And he believed in the LORD, and righteousness was accounted to him for his belief", and not that the "it" ( that Abraham believed) being counted to him for righteousness: "counted IT to him for righteousness", as it was written; that is, I think that since the "it" of the verse is what was accounted to him, and given that, as Christ's faith IS faith AND is righteousness AND is work - all necessary for salvation - being that which God accounted (reckoned/imputed) to him through/by the one "it", as He accounts to all those whom He saves.
Do you think this assessment correct? I'm not 100% sure so I may revise my thoughts after thinking about it further.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52,

I probably should have also included that if we look at the verse closely:

[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

and we think about the interpretation most people try to apply to it, just by the logic of the verse within itself as written, it cannot support the interpretation that righteousness was given Abraham because of his faith. For that interpretation to be correct, it would instead have had to be written as " And he believed in the LORD, and righteousness was accounted to him for his belief", and not that the "it" ( that Abraham believed) being counted to him for righteousness: "counted IT to him for righteousness", as it was written; that is, I think that since the "it" of the verse is what was accounted to him, and given that, as Christ's faith IS faith AND is righteousness AND is work - all necessary for salvation - being that which God accounted (reckoned/imputed) to him through/by the one "it", as He accounts to all those whom He saves.
Do you think this assessment correct? I'm not 100% sure so I may revise my thoughts after thinking about it further.

As I have read this a couple of times, and will probably read it a couple more times, I think I agree with it. We know for sure that God didnt count Abes act of believing as His Righteousness, it had to be the object of his faith, which was either Christ the coming seed, or the entire scope of Christs faithfulness/obedience. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and so its stated that God preached the Gospel to Abe Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now this historically occured as it was recorded in Gen 12:3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Later this same promise added the word seed Gen 22:18

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Peter in his sermon also quoted the word seed Acts 3:25

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

And subsequently we know that the seed is Christ Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So back up in Gen 12:3 God I believe revealed Christ to Abraham, and that Christ was his righteousness.

So Christ, his seed, was imputed to him for Righteousness., and I think you are saying the same thing just in a slightly different way, which is fine !

 

[journeyman]

When the Jailer in Acts 16:30 asked what must I do to be saved,

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

He wasn't asking about what qualifying action he could do to get himself saved, for he never used the word get as in get saved, but he used the word be, as be saved. The words be saved here are in the passive voice wherein the subject is the recipient of the action, for he was speaking from a frame of helplessness, hopelessness. Paul's response was not that he should do, act, or perform but to believe, that's promoting Faith and not works. Paul knew that believing was the Gift of God, that is, to believe in Christ savingly wasn't a natural inherent quality of the natural man, believing is having been given the Gift of Faith Eph 2:8 Paul testified to the fact that believing on Christ was something God gives here Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That word given is basically the same word for grace charizomai derived from and the middle voice of charis translated 130 times in the NT as Grace.

So people believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
So now even though technically believing is a doing, which technically is a work, nobody has the ability to believe until God by Grace, by Grace doing, its Gods Grace and Spirit working in the sanctified sinner causing the sinner to believe. No man by nature can truly believe in Christ as Saviour without first being saved by Grace and given the gift of Faith, so it is written 1 Pet 1:21

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Phil 2:13

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The do the Jailer needed to do to be saved, God needed to first worketh in him to do.

So thats how Salvation by works and Faith can be scripturally contrasted, when credit is given to Grace for a person doing the believing, and believing wasn't a natural freewill ability they had of themselves prior to regeneration.

But if we insist that believing was a condition we met prior to being saved by grace, and we did it as natural men, and as a result, God saved us, that's making believing, faith a work we do for salvation.24

What is so hard about understanding why the jailer asked a question about being saved? An earthquake? Cell doors open? Chains fall off? Prisoners don't leave?
Reasoning?

What is so hard about understanding how God raised Christ from the dead.......so that our faith would be in him. So that we would have faith in him.

So...that...we...would...believe...in Jesus.

 

[journeyman]

journey

God spoke to a lot of people, did that result in them having faith ?

No. It resulted in some receiving Gods' gift, but others rejecting it.

Your answer is incomplete.

No it isn't, because there's way more we don't know about Abrahams' relationship with God than we do know.

If you dont believe Abrahams faith was naturally of himself, where did he get it from ?

I've already told you, all people were born into this world with the ability to believe anything we're taught. There is no denying this. It's a plain fact.