Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

As I have read this a couple of times, and will probably read it a couple more times, I think I agree with it.

Yeah, sorry brightfame52. I reread it and it's virtually incomprehensible - but it sure made a lot of sense while I wrote it (lol).

Let me try again - not sure I will do any better this time though. Anyway, the verse as it stands in the Bible is 1) (below). My contention is that for it to actually mean as interpreted by most people - that Abraham (himself) had faith and that faith brought him righteousness - the verse as written would then be incorrect logically. To be made correct logically per that interpretation, the verse would instead have said 2 (below), not 1 (below). Both very different from each other.
So, in addition to the other whole host of doctrinal reasons we discussed as to why the typical interpretation is wrong, it seems to me that the logic of the verse itself, on its face, will not permit that kind of interpretation to be correctly made.

1) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (current)
2) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted righteousness to him because of his belief" (adjusted to the interpretation)

In 2, righteousness is what is imputed to him for his belief. In 1, it is the reverse.

Yikes! Sorry - I refuse to quit!

 

[heartwashed]

Believing / faith is not a work as pertains to our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on that. We are saved by grace through faith; we are not saved by works.

If believing / faith is a work then we are not saved through faith according to this scripture.

Because we are not saved by works.

Therefore if faith is a work, we are saved by works in contradiction to this scripture (and also according to it).

For we are saved by grace through faith; and if faith is a work, then we are saved by that work.

And we are not saved by works; therefore if faith is a work, we are not saved through faith.

 

[brightfame52]

journey

I've already told you, all people were born into this world with the ability to believe anything we're taught. There is no denying this. It's a plain fact

Okay so you believe faith is generated in the natural man, its of his ability. Thats salvation by works, by merit, by mans ability ! Its condemned in scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah, sorry brightfame52. I reread it and it's virtually incomprehensible - but it sure made a lot of sense while I wrote it (lol).

Let me try again - not sure I will do any better this time though. Anyway, the verse as it stands in the Bible is 1) (below). My contention is that for it to actually mean as interpreted by most people - that Abraham (himself) had faith and that faith brought him righteousness - the verse as written would then be incorrect logically. To be made correct logically per that interpretation, the verse would instead have said 2 (below), not 1 (below). Both very different from each other.
So, in addition to the other whole host of doctrinal reasons we discussed as to why the typical interpretation is wrong, it seems to me that the logic of the verse itself, on its face, will not permit that kind of interpretation to be correctly made.

1) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (current)
2) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted righteousness to him because of his belief" (adjusted to the interpretation)

In 2, righteousness is what is imputed to him for his belief. In 1, it is the reverse.

Yikes! Sorry - I refuse to quit!

Okay, # 2 would be more explicit in stating so to speak, God rewarded Abrahams believing with Righteousness

But the verse doesnt explicitly say that, correct ?

 

[rogerg]

And we are not saved by works; therefore if faith is a work, we are not saved through faith.

No - faith is given to those He has chosen to save solely as a gift from a gracious God - it is not of themselves. For that reason, and for that reason alone, it is not a work, under any other circumstances or conditions other than that, it would be a work.

 

[rogerg]

But the verse doesnt explicitly say that, correct ?

Sorry, brightfame52, I still didn't explain it well enough. Let's let it go for now, and maybe take
it up again in the future after I think of a good way to state it.

 

[Hopeful]

No - faith is given to those He has chosen to save solely as a gift from a gracious God - it is not of themselves. For that reason, and for that reason alone, it is not a work, under any other circumstances or conditions other than that, it would be a work.

I wonder how many are running around with a faith that isn't their own?

 

[heartwashed]

No - faith is given to those He has chosen to save solely as a gift from a gracious God - it is not of themselves. For that reason, and for that reason alone, it is not a work, under any other circumstances or conditions other than that, it would be a work.

Faith is not a work under any circumstances.

Otherwise, being saved through faith, we would be saved by works.

Contradictory to holy scripture.

 

[rogerg]

Otherwise, being saved through faith, we would be saved by works.

Not contradictory to holy scripture, it is holy scripture.
Faith is a work, and we are saved by it, but it was God alone who satisfied all work of salvation, including the work for a true faith in Christ. There is no question as to whether work is necessary, but of who's responsibility that work is. Since it is given completely as a gift to those whom God has chosen for it, no work in any sense, to become saved on the recipient's part is either needed or permitted.

The below verses tell us two things: 1) faith was a work and, 2) that it was God who accomplished that work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

Faith is not a work under any circumstances.

Oh Yes it is. But what makes it a contrast with works, is that Faith/believing in the matter of Salvation is Spiritual fruit from the New Birth, so technically its not our own naturally, but if one says their faith/believing came from them prior to the New birth, and they were still natural, unregenerate, then by default it becomes your works!

Otherwise, being saved through faith, we would be saved by works.

Wrong, and its saved by grace through Faith, not saved through faith Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is saying here neither Salvation, Grace, and Faith are of yourselves, but the whole package " Salvation by grace through Faith" is the Gift of God. Not of yourself,

In fact Paul teaches in Acts 18:27 that we believe because of grace

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

But if you insist that you believed by your own freewill prior to new birth, its a work, your work, and you have occasion to boast.

Contradictory to holy scripture.

Correct, so keep that in mind of you believe people are saved because of their own faith or believing, thats contrary to grace !

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Faith is a work, and we are saved by it, but it was God alone who satisfied all work of salvation, including the work for a true faith in Christ.

Amen, And Christ is the author of every believers Faith Heb 12:2

There is no question as to whether work is necessary, but of who's responsibility that work is. Since it is given completely as a gift to those whom God has chosen for it, no work in any sense, to become saved on the recipient's part is either needed or permitted.

Amen, Preach it !

The below verses tell us two things: 1) faith was a work and, 2) that it was God who accomplished that work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Correct, Its Gods work to bring the Sheep to believe in Jesus Christ, I actually believe God the Holy Spirit is being referred to here, its His Work to bring redeemed sinners to believe in their redeemer !

 

[rogerg]

I wonder how many are running around with a faith that isn't their own?

You've asked the wrong question. What you should have asked is how many would have
faith were it not given as a gift from God. Wait.... I have an answer to that: ZERO

 

[Hopeful]

You've asked the wrong question. What you should have asked is how many would have
faith were it not given as a gift from God. Wait.... I have an answer to that: ZERO

Men can't have faith in something without the knowledge that something is worth their believing it.
You opine a faith without that knowledge, forced on men and women by God.
God has given everybody everything we need in order to believe what happened to Jesus was real.
Some choose to believe and others choose not to.

Were you forced to believe the Old and New Covenants?
Or did you choose to believe them?

 

[rogerg]

God has given everybody everything we need in order to believe what happened to Jesus was real.
Some choose to believe and others choose not to.

With faith being a faith in Christ, and the completion of all needed for salvation by Him: He alone is Saviour in all ways.
and included within the "all ways" is that the elect believe/have faith in Him as Saviour. If we don't believe that He achieved all of that solely through/by Himself with us being only the beneficiaries of it, then we do not believe in Christ.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

journey

Okay so you believe faith is generated in the natural man, its of his ability.

I believe faith is generated by everything Jesus did,

many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. Jn.2:23

Thats salvation by works, by merit, by mans ability ! Its condemned in scripture.

No. It's salvation by God given abilities, which he has blessed everyone with.

being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Rom.1:20

Why do you teach people can't know anything about God from creation?

 

[brightfame52]

I believe faith is generated by everything Jesus did,

many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. Jn.2:23

No. It's salvation by God given abilities, which he has blessed everyone with.

being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Rom.1:20

Why do you teach people can't know anything about God from creation?

You constantly condition salvation on the works and merit of man.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

If we don't believe that He achieved all of that solely through/by Himself with us being only the beneficiaries of it, then we do not believe in Christ.

Absolutely correct.

 

[JLB]

Faith is not a work under any circumstances.

Otherwise, being saved through faith, we would be saved by works.

Contradictory to holy scripture.

Of course faith is not a work.

Faith is a noun. Faith comes from God as a gift.

Faith comes to us by hear God speak to us; His word

However, faith operates by a law (principle) ; the law of faith..

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27


Believe on the other hand is a verb, something we do; an action.

It is this action of believing (and therefore obeying), that causes faith to be activated; to come alive to produce the intended divine result... whether salvation, healing, provision, justification or righteousness.



JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You constantly condition salvation on the works and merit of man.

People became vain in their thinking...after they knew God,

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Rom.1:21

Calvanists must ignore this, as it proves mankind knew God and their hearts were not always dark.

 

[heartwashed]

Not contradictory to holy scripture, it is holy scripture.
Faith is a work, and we are saved by it, but it was God alone who satisfied all work of salvation, including the work for a true faith in Christ. There is no question as to whether work is necessary, but of who's responsibility that work is. Since it is given completely as a gift to those whom God has chosen for it, no work in any sense, to become saved on the recipient's part is either needed or permitted.

The below verses tell us two things: 1) faith was a work and, 2) that it was God who accomplished that work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In the scripture that you have quoted, Jesus is conceding salvation by works to those who insist upon it, and then bringing it back around to the fact that a man can only be justified by faith.

We are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:9); and therefore if faith is a work, we are not saved through faith.

But we are saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8); and therefore faith is not a work.