Predestination

[GodsGrace]

Let's go there.

I think they believe the way we do. People who are able to be saved will be saved whether or not we're involved in the process or not. I don't believe that someone else's salvation is dependent on whether or not I reach out to them. God will get to them one way or another. I just won't have any reward for labor I did not do in that part of the field and building of God.

OK but let me make my point first.
I think you might have missed it:

Some high calvinists believe there is absolutely no use in missionary work or witnessing.
This is because God will choose who will be saved and who will be reprobate - damned, lost.

Regular 5 point calvinists, softer in their beliefs, but not different, agree that we are to witness because JESUS COMMANDED IT.
Also, they might feel that persons are to hear the gospel and, if God had chosen them, they'll believe and be saved at this point.

We don't believe God does the choosing. We believe that God reveals Himself and the person gets to choose if they wish to obey God or not. This makes witnessing absolutely necessary and also missionary work.

Is the difference clear?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Whatsoever comes to pass is ordained by God and will unfold as God has designed.
Salvation happens and unfolds in real time, using the means of grace.
Prayer is ordained as a means of grace.

Exactly. thus you will never say, and you will never hear from anyone else on the face of the earth that their salvation came from having predestination preached to them .

 

[GodsGrace]

I will respond here because it's an easy answer.

The reward for labor in the field and building of God is not meritorious toward justification or salvation. It has nothing to do with that.

Not in catholicism either.
Will look for that post now.

 

[Iconoclast]

OK but let me make my point first.
I think you might have missed it:

Some high calvinists believe there is absolutely no use in missionary work or witnessing.
This is because God will choose who will be saved and who will be reprobate - damned, lost.

Regular 5 point calvinists, softer in their beliefs, but not different, agree that we are to witness because JESUS COMMANDED IT.
Also, they might feel that persons are to hear the gospel and, if God had chosen them, they'll believe and be saved at this point.

We don't believe God does the choosing. We believe that God reveals Himself and the person gets to choose if they wish to obey God or not. This makes witnessing absolutely necessary and also missionary work.

Is the difference clear?

Exactly. thus you will never say, and you will never hear from anyone else on the face of the earth that their salvation came from having predestination preached to them .

The preaching of these very truths has led to multitudes being saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean I didn't have to type all this same stuff because you already did?

LOL
Or V V.
Jethro, I don't read each and every post.
But it's good we agree!

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly. thus you will never say, and you will never hear from anyone else on the face of the earth that their salvation came from having predestination preached to them .

• God is meticulously writing the story of history according to his own script. Though we speak of “accidents,” really, there are no accidents. Nothing will take place today that hasn’t been carefully planned before in eternity past by an all-powerful and good Creator.
• God loves sinners. We should never get over the stunning reality of this statement. Though we have rebelled against him, yet God sent his only Son to die in the place of sinful men and women to rescue them from sin and death (Rom. 5:8). Christ, who was not guilty, laid down his life for the guilty (1 Pet. 3:18). He bore the wrath we deserve.
• God uses means to achieve his ends. Our Lord selects weak clay pots and sends them to the ends of the earth to preach the good news of his rescue mission in Christ (Rom. 10:14-15). He gives fallen men the unconscionable privilege of proclaiming his sin-slaying, death-defeating gospel.
• God’s glory is ultimate, not man’s. The outset of the Shorter Catechism famously marks out the chief end of man—to glorify God and enjoy him forever. God made us for his glory (Isa. 42:8). Every pursuit in life is to be done with an eye to the spread of his fame.

 

[GodsGrace]

The preaching of these very truths has led to multitudes being saved.

So tell us this:

Did your preaching allow these persons to choose to believe God and His loving forgiveness....

Or did God predestine from the beginning of the world that these particular multitudes would be saved?

See I,
you can't have it both ways.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay

No...we are called to be saints day in day out. We are not called as sub-contractors, you do this job, then you are done.
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:


once called to be saints, gifts differ,yes.

You asked me who Romans 8:29 was talking about. I answered that it was talking about those that love God.
God works all things for the good to THOSE THAT LOVE HIM.
Then we have THE CALLING.
God calls some for specific works,,,or even normal works.
Some pastors, some missionaries, some parents, etc.

Of course we're all called to be saints - to be set apart.
I never said we're called like sub-contractors to do a job and then we're done.
I wish you would understand me better.
The gifts differ, but you certainly know we're called to do different things.
I was not CALLED to be missionary.

wrong use of foreknowledge.No one is called to "accept anything"
we are made accepted eph1;6

OK. You don't agree with me.
Accepted.
But God DID foreknow who would be accepting of salvation and who wouldn't.
God foreknew - He knew before it happened.
God knows EVERYTHING, past, present and future.

TOTALLY IGNORING WHAT I EXPLAINED earlier Know is used of an intimate knowledge
Gen 4:4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son

Did Adam forget who his wife was and then remember? Adam knew his wife....Joseph knew not Mary until after the birth of Jesus

The word KNOW in the entire bible does not always mean to know in an intimate way the way Adam KNEW Eve, or Joseph KNEW Mary.
It could just mean to know, the way we understand it today.
In the Greek it means what you're saying....but it doesn't have to be each time.
Following are some ways that the Hebrew uses the word we translate as KNOW...
As you can see, it's usage varies and changes with the context.

Know, Knowledge
The Old Testament. The Hebrew root yada [[;d"y],translated "know"/"knowledge, " appears almost 950 times in the Hebrew Bible. It has a wider sweep than our English word "know, " including perceiving, learning, understanding, willing, performing, and experiencing. To know is not to be intellectually informed about some abstract principle, but to apprehend and experience reality. Knowledge is not the possession of information, but rather its exercise or actualization.
Thus, biblically to know God is not to know about him in an abstract and impersonal manner, but rather to enter into his saving actions ( Micah 6:5 ). To know God is not to struggle philosophically with his eternal essence, but rather to recognize and accept his claims. It is not some mystical contemplation, but dutiful obedience.

In the doing of justice and righteousness, Josiah is said to have known God ( Jer 22:15-16 ).True knowledge of God involves obeying the stipulations of his covenant. It is expressed in living conformity to his will. The opposite of knowledge is not ignorance, but rebellion ( Jer22:11-14 ).

To know is to realize the loss of children ( Isa 47:8 ), grief ( Isa 53:3 ), guilt ( Jer 3:13 ),expediency ( Eccl 8:5 ),conversion ( Jer16:19-21 ), and judgment ( Eze 25:14 ).

The word "know" reflects a variety of skills and professional abilities such as hunting ( Gen25:27 ), sailing ( 1Kings 9:27 ), playing the harp ( 1 Sam 16:16 ),professional mourning ( Amos 5:16 ), and reading ( Isa 29:11 ).It also is used to indicate the ability to distinguish between good and evil ( Gen 3:5 ; Isa 7:15 ), the left and right hand ( Jonah4:11 ), the wise and the foolish ( Eccl 2:19 ), the desirable and the undesirable ( 2 Sam 19:35 ), and life and death ( 2Sam 12:22 ).

The word "know" is used as a euphemism for sex and intercourse: Adam knew his wife Eve and she became pregnant ( Gen 4:1 ). Women who have "known" a man are no longer virgins ( Numbers 31:17 Numbers 31:35 ).In his declining days David had an attractive attendant who served him but did not have sexual relationships with him ( 1 Kings 1:4 ). Even sexual perversions such as sodomy ( Gen 19:5 ; Judges 19:22 ) and rape ( Judges 19:25 )are designated by the word "know."

The word "know" is used also to express acquaintance with a person. Jacob questioned the shepherds of Haran, "Do you know Laban?" ( Gen 29:5 ). The pual participle of the Hebrew word indicates a close friend ( Job 19:14 ; Psalm 55:13 ), a neighbor ( Psalm31:11 ), a companion ( Psalms 88:8 Psalms 88:18 ),and a relative ( Ruth2:1 ).

Divine-human relationships are also expressed by this term. The Lord knew Moses very well—"by name" ( Exodus 33:11 Exodus 33:12 Exodus 33:17 ).Moses sought a reciprocal acquaintance with God ( Exod 33:13 ). The psalmist is amazed at God's intimate knowledge ( Psalm 139:6 ) of his personal life, his daily activities ( 139:1-2 ), even his unuttered and unformed thoughts ( 139:4 ).

The fact that God knows often indicates divine choice. He knew Jeremiah before his birth, singling him out to be a prophet ( Jer 1:5 ). He chose Abraham to be the father of a great nation ( Gen 18:19 ). The statement of am 3:2, "You (Israel) only have I chosen of all the families of the earth, " indicates divine selection. It is the way of the righteous that the Lord knows, endorses, and cherishes ( Psalm 1:6 ).

"Know" also is used as a treaty term. To know is to acknowledge. Thus when the new king of Egypt did not know Joseph ( Exod 1:8 ) he did not recognize the agreement that had been developed between Joseph and Pharaoh at the time his family came to Egypt. While the ox and donkey know their owner, Israel does not know ( Isa 1:3 ). More than instinct is intended here. Loyalty to the covenant is clearly in mind since the witnesses of that covenant are invoked ( Isa 1:2 ). Moses demands that those who had stood at Mount Sinai and entered into covenant with the Lord acknowledge that agreement and live by it ( Deut 11:1-25 ).

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/know-knowledge.html


1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast

2 of 2

No such people exist. psalm 14:1-3...God chooses us.

OK. That's a calvinist belief.
I don't agree with it, but I agree that it is reformed theology.
So we agree and don't agree....

You could not have this any more wrong and unbiblical if you tried.This is completely anti scriptural.
It is not just that you do not agree with me as DM suggests...it is because it goes directly against the text. It is the people who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus...not the what...their actions as you suggest.
The discussion comes to a halt, when you directly contradict a scriptural statement.

I agree.
You're RIGHT !
It is THE PEOPLE who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
Correct.
What is predestined is that the people will be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF JESUS.
THIS is what God predestined...NOT the actual persons, but that they will be conformed to the image of Jesus.
It is the CONFORMITY that is predestined....

Same here...God first loved us...you put the cart before the horse once again...bringing the discussion to a halt.
God loved us while sinners, he died for us [the elect]. We were completely sinful and enemies of God...not people in love with God.

Agreed again.
But I was speaking about those that love God...the saved.
God first loved us.
1 John 4:19
We love, because He first loved us.
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Amen.

No understanding of this and in fact you directly contradict biblical teaching. they call this the golden chain of redemption for a reason. All 5 things are true of the individuals in view.

I explained it the best way I know how.
I can't do better than that.
We can agree to disagree.

I did offer some links from biblical scholars.
Using the bible alone does not satisfy you - which is what I did.
I'm not going to use a commentary...
Then YOU use a commentary...
and it never ends.

2tim1:9 which you already tried to explain away provides the answer.
Your rejection of both the Covenant of Redemption, and the Covenant of Grace answer also...but you reject them as not existing so you have to create a made up fabricated reality instead.

We discussed 2 Timothy 1:9?
I don't think I've ever discussed it.
Re the Covenant of Redemption and the Covenant of Grace.

Let's clarify once and for all.
The reformed faith calls covenants by their own terms.
The two covenants you mention might be valid, but they would have another title.
I've taught 7 or 8 covenants and there are none by that title.

Theology Thursday: What Are the Biblical Covenants?

For a long time, I had a tough time understanding the Bible. That is not to say that I have all my questions answered now.

www.gcu.edu

What Are the Eight Covenants of the Bible? | Synonym

classroom.synonym.com

I love how this one is laid out.
Wish I had it for my lessons!

https://www.crcnh.org/downloads/reference-guides/9-The-Eight-Covenants-of-the-Bible.pdf

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hello JB,
It is not an either-or, but a both and.
I will do a thread on Romans 8 :29-30...known worldwide as the golden chain of redemption.
For you JB:

I enjoy this study each week, past studies can be found on the site.
This is mainstream Calvinism

I don't have time to watch a long video like this. And I don't really have time to talk about issues that don't directly address the core foundational belief of Calvinism upon which all it's tenants rest.

So, can you prove in a couple of short and concise readable posts that Romans 9:18-23 means God, before time began, purposely decided to choose some soil to be created with the capacity and potential to receive, retain, and bring to fruition the word of God, and will purposely deny that capacity and potential to the soil he does not choose?

18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— Romans 9:18-23 BSB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Calvin said that "faith" has nothing to do with it.
My question stands.
Having been already predestined how could Peter's failing faith have led to his destruction by Satan as Jesus claimed?
Was Jesus mistaken ?
With Peter's faith being of no consequence to his predestination what caused Jesus's emergency response in praying for Peter's faith to save him from Satan, when he was already predestined not to be destroyed by Satan ?
Possible miscommunication between the Father and Son ?

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."

Luk 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

 

[Iconoclast]

You asked me who Romans 8:29 was talking about. I answered that it was talking about those that love God.
God works all things for the good to THOSE THAT LOVE HIM.
Then we have THE CALLING.
God calls some for specific works,,,or even normal works.
Some pastors, some missionaries, some parents, etc.

Of course we're all called to be saints - to be set apart.
I never said we're called like sub-contractors to do a job and then we're done.
I wish you would understand me better.
The gifts differ, but you certainly know we're called to do different things.
I was not CALLED to be missionary.



OK. You don't agree with me.
Accepted.
But God DID foreknow who would be accepting of salvation and who wouldn't.
God foreknew - He knew before it happened.
God knows EVERYTHING, past, present and future.



The word KNOW in the entire bible does not always mean to know in an intimate way the way Adam KNEW Eve, or Joseph KNEW Mary.
It could just mean to know, the way we understand it today.
In the Greek it means what you're saying....but it doesn't have to be each time.
Following are some ways that the Hebrew uses the word we translate as KNOW...
As you can see, it's usage varies and changes with the context.

Know, Knowledge
The Old Testament. The Hebrew root yada [[;d"y],translated "know"/"knowledge, " appears almost 950 times in the Hebrew Bible. It has a wider sweep than our English word "know, " including perceiving, learning, understanding, willing, performing, and experiencing. To know is not to be intellectually informed about some abstract principle, but to apprehend and experience reality. Knowledge is not the possession of information, but rather its exercise or actualization.
Thus, biblically to know God is not to know about him in an abstract and impersonal manner, but rather to enter into his saving actions ( Micah 6:5 ). To know God is not to struggle philosophically with his eternal essence, but rather to recognize and accept his claims. It is not some mystical contemplation, but dutiful obedience.

In the doing of justice and righteousness, Josiah is said to have known God ( Jer 22:15-16 ).True knowledge of God involves obeying the stipulations of his covenant. It is expressed in living conformity to his will. The opposite of knowledge is not ignorance, but rebellion ( Jer22:11-14 ).

To know is to realize the loss of children ( Isa 47:8 ), grief ( Isa 53:3 ), guilt ( Jer 3:13 ),expediency ( Eccl 8:5 ),conversion ( Jer16:19-21 ), and judgment ( Eze 25:14 ).

The word "know" reflects a variety of skills and professional abilities such as hunting ( Gen25:27 ), sailing ( 1Kings 9:27 ), playing the harp ( 1 Sam 16:16 ),professional mourning ( Amos 5:16 ), and reading ( Isa 29:11 ).It also is used to indicate the ability to distinguish between good and evil ( Gen 3:5 ; Isa 7:15 ), the left and right hand ( Jonah4:11 ), the wise and the foolish ( Eccl 2:19 ), the desirable and the undesirable ( 2 Sam 19:35 ), and life and death ( 2Sam 12:22 ).

The word "know" is used as a euphemism for sex and intercourse: Adam knew his wife Eve and she became pregnant ( Gen 4:1 ). Women who have "known" a man are no longer virgins ( Numbers 31:17 Numbers 31:35 ).In his declining days David had an attractive attendant who served him but did not have sexual relationships with him ( 1 Kings 1:4 ). Even sexual perversions such as sodomy ( Gen 19:5 ; Judges 19:22 ) and rape ( Judges 19:25 )are designated by the word "know."

The word "know" is used also to express acquaintance with a person. Jacob questioned the shepherds of Haran, "Do you know Laban?" ( Gen 29:5 ). The pual participle of the Hebrew word indicates a close friend ( Job 19:14 ; Psalm 55:13 ), a neighbor ( Psalm31:11 ), a companion ( Psalms 88:8 Psalms 88:18 ),and a relative ( Ruth2:1 ).

Divine-human relationships are also expressed by this term. The Lord knew Moses very well—"by name" ( Exodus 33:11 Exodus 33:12 Exodus 33:17 ).Moses sought a reciprocal acquaintance with God ( Exod 33:13 ). The psalmist is amazed at God's intimate knowledge ( Psalm 139:6 ) of his personal life, his daily activities ( 139:1-2 ), even his unuttered and unformed thoughts ( 139:4 ).

The fact that God knows often indicates divine choice. He knew Jeremiah before his birth, singling him out to be a prophet ( Jer 1:5 ). He chose Abraham to be the father of a great nation ( Gen 18:19 ). The statement of am 3:2, "You (Israel) only have I chosen of all the families of the earth, " indicates divine selection. It is the way of the righteous that the Lord knows, endorses, and cherishes ( Psalm 1:6 ).

"Know" also is used as a treaty term. To know is to acknowledge. Thus when the new king of Egypt did not know Joseph ( Exod 1:8 ) he did not recognize the agreement that had been developed between Joseph and Pharaoh at the time his family came to Egypt. While the ox and donkey know their owner, Israel does not know ( Isa 1:3 ). More than instinct is intended here. Loyalty to the covenant is clearly in mind since the witnesses of that covenant are invoked ( Isa 1:2 ). Moses demands that those who had stood at Mount Sinai and entered into covenant with the Lord acknowledge that agreement and live by it ( Deut 11:1-25 ).

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/know-knowledge.html


1 of 2

we all realize the other use of the word.
I know that meaning of Know lol. in a general use.
Every verse I gave you it means an intimate knowledge of... Are you suggesting Adam forgot who Eve was, when it says Adam knew His WIFE again and she conceived.
Do you dislike the truth so much that you will invent anything possible to avoid it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast

2 of 2



OK. That's a calvinist belief.
I don't agree with it, but I agree that it is reformed theology.
So we agree and don't agree....

I agree.
You're RIGHT !
It is THE PEOPLE who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
Correct.
What is predestined is that the people will be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF JESUS.
THIS is what God predestined...NOT the actual persons, but that they will be conformed to the image of Jesus.
It is the CONFORMITY that is predestined....

Agreed again.
But I was speaking about those that love God...the saved.
God first loved us.
1 John 4:19
We love, because He first loved us.
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Amen.

I explained it the best way I know how.
I can't do better than that.
We can agree to disagree.

I did offer some links from biblical scholars.
Using the bible alone does not satisfy you - which is what I did.
I'm not going to use a commentary...
Then YOU use a commentary...
and it never ends.

We discussed 2 Timothy 1:9?
I don't think I've ever discussed it.
Re the Covenant of Redemption and the Covenant of Grace.

Let's clarify once and for all.
The reformed faith calls covenants by their own terms.
The two covenants you mention might be valid, but they would have another title.
I've taught 7 or 8 covenants and there are none by that title.

Theology Thursday: What Are the Biblical Covenants?

For a long time, I had a tough time understanding the Bible. That is not to say that I have all my questions answered now.

www.gcu.edu

What Are the Eight Covenants of the Bible? | Synonym

classroom.synonym.com

I love how this one is laid out.
Wish I had it for my lessons!

https://www.crcnh.org/downloads/reference-guides/9-The-Eight-Covenants-of-the-Bible.pdf

The Covenants listed here are found in scripture, but neglect a few, or rename some or have a few differences. I will be offering on it soon.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvin said that "faith" has nothing to do with it.
My question stands.
Having been already predestined how could Peter's failing faith have led to his destruction by Satan as Jesus claimed?
Was Jesus mistaken ?
With Peter's faith being of no consequence to his predestination what caused Jesus's emergency response in praying for Peter's faith to save him from Satan, when he was already predestined not to be destroyed by Satan ?
Possible miscommunication between the Father and Son ?

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."

Luk 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

read the verse..satan desired to...it does not say he succeeded because Jesus prayed for him.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Calvin said that "faith" has nothing to do with it.
My question stands.
Having been already predestined how could Peter's failing faith have led to his destruction by Satan as Jesus claimed?
Was Jesus mistaken ?
With Peter's faith being of no consequence to his predestination what caused Jesus's emergency response in praying for Peter's faith to save him from Satan, when he was already predestined not to be destroyed by Satan ?
Possible miscommunication between the Father and Son ?

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."

Luk 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

read the verse..satan desired to...it does not say he succeeded because Jesus prayed for him.

Jesus said it was vital that He intervene to prevent Peter's predestined fate, preset by God, from being thwarted .
Solely due to Peter's failing faith .
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

Your guru Calvin says that Faith plays no part in predestination .
That's a YES or a No by the way ?

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."
How then is Peter's failing faith a certain threat to his predestination so much that Jesus Himself patch together an ad-hoc emergency prayer to save him ?

 

[GodsGrace]

read the verse..satan desired to...it does not say he succeeded because Jesus prayed for him.

Good morning I,
Many times I have referred to Consecrated Life 's idea without a real response.

IOW, In Matthew 23:37 Jesus is crying/lamenting over Jerusalem because He wanted to gather her chicks under His wing like a mother hen, BUT YOU WERE UNWILLING.

1. Willing infers a free will.
Willing to do something means CHOOSING to do something.
Choice denotes a free will.

2. Why would Jesus cry over Jerusalem?
Didn't He know God predestined Jerusalem not to accept Him?

I think it's not blasphemous to make the analogy:
Did Jesus not receive the memo?


Do you see how reformed theology makes many verses/scripture not make much sense.

 

[Iconoclast]

Good morning I,
Many times I have referred to Consecrated Life 's idea without a real response.

IOW, In Matthew 23:37 Jesus is crying/lamenting over Jerusalem because He wanted to gather her chicks under His wing like a mother hen, BUT YOU WERE UNWILLING.

1. Willing infers a free will.
Willing to do something means CHOOSING to do something.
Choice denotes a free will.

2. Why would Jesus cry over Jerusalem?
Didn't He know God predestined Jerusalem not to accept Him?

I think it's not blasphemous to make the analogy:
Did Jesus not receive the memo?


Do you see how reformed theology makes many verses/scripture not make much sense.

Men have what scripture says is a self-will. they are free moral agents able to make choices about mundane things.
what toppings do I want on my pizza? DO i want eggplant parm, or ravioli?
The text says they were not willing.That says their wills were bound by sin and not free at all.Just like the jews in John 8.
Spiritually they were dead, not responsive to the things of the Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus said it was vital that He intervene to prevent Peter's predestined fate, preset by God, from being thwarted .
Solely due to Peter's failing faith .
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

Your guru Calvin says that Faith plays no part in predestination .
That's a YES or a No by the way ?

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."
How then is Peter's failing faith a certain threat to his predestination so much that Jesus Himself patch together an ad-hoc emergency prayer to save him ?

Pray is a good work, ordained for us as a means of grace to enable us to persevere in the faith.
CL... I do believe in election and predestination but it is not a fatalistic scheme.
The living God has set out a path for our sanctification as well as our glorification.
We go through trials and tribulations as a part of that path. It is not just like the Arminian osas!
1689 conf.

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints​

1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved,
effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit,
and given the precious faith of his elect unto,
can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace,
but shall certainly persevere therein to the end,
and be eternally saved,
seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance,
whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;
and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them,
yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon;
notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan,
the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,
yet he is still the same,
and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation,
where they shall enjoy their purchased possession,
they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

 

[Iconoclast]

Good morning I,

good afternoon

IOW, In Matthew 23:37 Jesus is crying/lamenting over Jerusalem because He wanted to gather her chicks under His wing like a mother hen, BUT YOU WERE UNWILLING.

1. Willing infers a free will.
Willing to do something means CHOOSING to do something.
Choice denotes a free will.

no, see previous post

2. Why would Jesus cry over Jerusalem?
Didn't He know God predestined Jerusalem not to accept Him?

wrong use of predestination, and these leaders who were non elect persons were not willing because they were not his sheep. Jn 10;26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

I think it's not blasphemous to make the analogy:
Did Jesus not receive the memo?

Jesus is the creator, and Lord of glory. To joke and suggest he did not "receive the memo" as if he were some random guy on the street is profane and should never take place.

Do you see how reformed theology makes many verses/scripture not make much sense.

They do not make sense until God allows a person to see it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Men have what scripture says is a self-will. they are free moral agents able to make choices about mundane things.
what toppings do I want on my pizza? DO i want eggplant parm, or ravioli?
The text says they were not willing.That says their wills were bound by sin and not free at all.Just like the jews in John 8.
Spiritually they were dead, not responsive to the things of the Kingdom.

I know.
This is a tough nut to crack.
We're very set in our ways.

Re the choosing of the pizza.
Don't you believe that God predestined Everything as the confession states?
Wouldn't that include your pizza topping?